$13,000 made during year, $9k tax return..

[Charles Kozierok]

From what I just read, the child tax credits can reduce your owed tax to ZERO but cannot be refunded in excess (in other words, you cannot make money on them). Doesn't that rule out the child tax credits in this case?

If so, I do not understand how this person can get a $9,000 refund. There is little chance that this person paid in over $3,000 in FIT during the year. Doesn't add up at all.

I believe that much of the point of EITC is that you can get more of a refund than you paid. It's a form of welfare.

 

[IBMer]

I think when people say its always because of lack of drive or bad life choices always view it from their own perspective, upbringing and socialization. Its easy for them to say that they would have made better choices as if they lived in a vacum and had no outside influence and it was just ingrained into them.

People in poverty live around others in poverty... Where do you think they get their socialization?

My family is a good example of this. I moved in with my dad when I was 14, but my younger sister stayed with my mom. Before that we both lived with my mom who was on welfare, food stamps and home assistance. My mom was a LPN before going on welfare but after divorcing my dad when I was 6 she couldn't afford childcare in order to work so she was pretty much forced to quit. My dad after divorcing her left to another state and got a degree in Engineering while also not paying any child support or assisting my mom in any way. Fast forward to the present. My father being middle class, lived in a middle class area of town and also had a hard work = success frame of mind. Because of that after I moved in I also started doing much better in school and developed a better work ethic. My sister on the other hand continued to live in poverty and thus around mostly poor people and thus didn't have the same examples around her that I did. She now has 4 children from 4 different men and only one of the fathers is still active in their kids lives.

Now I, in no way AT all condone a lot of the choices she has made, but at the same time I can very much understand the mindset that you get growing up in that environment. You don't develop the same drive for success when all the people around you are people who constantly have to struggle to make any ends meet. People also don't understand how sharp the curve is for welfare. Its nearly an all or nothing prospect that feels like getting a job is actually a penalty because you lose programs such as child care assistance which allow you to work in the first place. I also definitely think that there can be a sense that there is a safety net incase they fall on hard times that allows them to not fully think through some of their choices, specially concerning childbirth, which does need to change.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

IBMer: Thanks for that post.

 

[IBMer]

From what I just read, the child tax credits can reduce your owed tax to ZERO but cannot be refunded in excess (in other words, you cannot make money on them). Doesn't that rule out the child tax credits in this case?

If so, I do not understand how this person can get a $9,000 refund. There is little chance that this person paid in over $3,000 in FIT during the year. Doesn't add up at all.

With that said, the EITC is a pile of shit. I guess it's better than pure welfare in that someone is working but seems this person is still getting as much as would be in welfare. SMH

The example in the OPs post is complete bullshit thats why. For one EIC only counts for up to 3 children:

The maximum earned income credit for 2012 is:
$5,891 with three or more qualifying children;
$5,236 with two qualifying children;
$3,169 with one qualifying child; and
$475 with no qualifying children.

A vast majority of people that are able to claim the EIC also claim a high number of deductions on their W-4 so their federal tax paid is generally very low.

I find it extremely hard to believe that someone who made 13,000 got a 9,000 dollar tax return. Even claiming 0 on a W-4 there is no way she paid 3k in taxes with 13k of income to have that refunded back.

My sister who has 4 children and makes around that gets 4-5k. She always spends it stupidly as well.

 

[Engineer]

I believe that much of the point of EITC is that you can get more of a refund than you paid. It's a form of welfare.

I know what it is and maxes out at close to $6,000 (which is why I said that there is no way that this person paid in $3,000 in FIT, which, when added to the $6,000 EITC would be $9,000 that the OP claims). With that said, you cannot get $9,000 from it though and the tax credits can only reduce what you owe to ZERO and now below.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I know what it is and maxes out at close to $6,000 (which is why I said that there is no way that this person paid in $3,000 in FIT, which, when added to the $6,000 EITC would be $9,000 that the OP claims). With that said, you cannot get $9,000 from it though and the tax credits can only reduce what you owe to ZERO and now below.

Yeah, the number seems excessive.

I thought it was possible to get a negative tax liability; I guess I was wrong. Or maybe I'm thinking of a refund of withheld taxes if the amount is reduced to zero.

 

[Engineer]

Yeah, the number seems excessive.

I thought it was possible to get a negative tax liability; I guess I was wrong. Or maybe I'm thinking of a refund of withheld taxes if the amount is reduced to zero.

You can get negative tax liability with EITC but that maxes out at $5,800+. You cannot go more negative with Child Tax Credits. The only way that she could get back $9,000 is that she had paid in $3,200 or so. I don't think it's possible for her to have paid in $3,200 in FIT during the year unless she received the entire $13,000 over a couple of paychecks (tax tables would hold out quite a bit for that but I doubt that's the case).

 

[CitizenKain]

What, rightwing idiots on this forum spreading made up bullshit, no way.

How bout we stick a 200 watt soldering iron up her wise and beautiful woman so she stops breeding kids she can't afford. So sick of this shit.

The outcome of inbreeding is posts like that.

 

[crosshairs]

and that honestly is the mentality thats wrong with this country.

Too worried about what other people get not worried enough about your own situation in life.

Ahh some one is getting free shit waaaa, I want free shit too.

yeah your right,people who work and who get tired of their money being wasted is whats wrong.....silly me .....Ill hurry up and send in my other 2K so you can eat this week.

 

[nehalem256]

I care about people in my own community/state/country first and foremost.

Its not a guilt trip rather the reality of your comments, your a miserable fuck, its plain to see. dont blame me that your an insufferable prick that makes so little you care about keeping %5 of your tax money at the sake of starving the children of your countrymen.

Why do you think if we cut welfare programs that it would leading to children starving? As our good friend Mxylplyx pointed out:

But what if they CHOOSE to have an abortion after they carelessly get pregnant, which means they are in essence CHOOSING to not have a child they cannot feed?

It is quite easy for people to avoid having children they cannot feed.

So assuming we can trust women to make the right choice for their family starving children should not be an issue. :awe:

You do trust women don't you?

 

[ccbadd]

So for those that are staunchly opposed to this, what would you propose the government do about it? Cut them off and let the kids starve? Take the kids and put them in foster care?

DON'T GIVE THEM CASH! Provide food and don't market it as a career option! Why is it that the lefties won't admit that the welfare system they created is RESPONSIBLE for severely damaging the people that are trying to help? Look what you've done with the black family and admit it was wrong and harmed them. Instead, you want to put more people on that same path.

 

[Engineer]

So for those that are staunchly opposed to this, what would you propose the government do about it? Cut them off and let the kids starve? Take the kids and put them in foster care?

My opinion is that welfare should be in the form of vouchers for certain products and food stamps for certain foods, just like the WIC program does. I'm not saying bread and water type of foods, but I definitely think that there should be a limit of what you can and cannot buy with such monies and vouchers.

 

[Svnla]

<snip> She now has 4 children from 4 different men and only one of the fathers is still active in their kids lives. <snip>
.

This is the problem I have with people like her. Four kids? With four DIFFERENT guys? We all make mistakes in our lives but come on.

Being poor =! excuses or reasons to make multiple mistakes over and over and over and......

 

[nehalem256]

This is the problem I have with people like her. Four kids? With four DIFFERENT guys? We all make mistakes in our lives but come on.

Being poor =! excuses or reasons to make multiple mistakes over and over and over and......

Welfare programs are thinly veiled cover to support liberals morally bankrupt ideology.

There is no excuse to have children out of wedlock with multiple men. If you really care about children you would not support no-fault divorce and having bastard children.

Children living in households with unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die of inflicted injuries as children living with two biological parents, according to a study of Missouri data published in the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2005.

Children living in stepfamilies or with single parents are at higher risk of physical or sexual assault than children living with two biological or adoptive parents, according to several studies co-authored by David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire's Crimes Against Children Research Center.

Girls whose parents divorce face significantly higher risk of sexual assault, whether they live with their mother or father, according to research by Robin Wilson, a family law professor at Washington and Lee University.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/2183857...igher-risk-nontraditional-homes/#.UM9XfIM701J

How do liberals manage to say they care about children with a straight face?

 

[lotus503]

Why do you think if we cut welfare programs that it would leading to children starving? As our good friend Mxylplyx pointed out:



It is quite easy for people to avoid having children they cannot feed.

So assuming we can trust women to make the right choice for their family starving children should not be an issue. :awe:

You do trust women don't you?

I don't think that, I was responding to a post where he outlines he wants them to starve. I think reasonable cuts could be made simply by weeding out abuse of the system.

You could also get a better societal return in the welfare investment.

 

[lotus503]

yeah your right,people who work and who get tired of their money being wasted is whats wrong.....silly me .....Ill hurry up and send in my other 2K so you can eat this week.

No what you said is other people freeload so why should you work.

Keep your 2k I make more than that in a week.

 

[nehalem256]

I think reasonable cuts could be made simply by weeding out abuse of the system.

The problem is what qualifies as "abuse".

If a woman CHOOSES to have children with multiple incarcerated felons it seems to me that she is abusing society.

 

[Darwin333]

Personally, I think you are full of shit(Nice Red meat for the Rabid Rightwingers in here tho) because that person would be in jail if they cashed the check. The only people who can get away with stealing Billions of dollars without any repercussions are Wall Street and the Big Banks.

Why would they be in jail?

Its called the earned income tax credit.

 

[OverVolt]

There is a welfare cliff. A single mom making around ~$33k gets $60k combined with government aid and tax returns. Up until $67k they have no motivation to get promotions or get new skills etc. The sweet spot is $20k - $42k.

This is the problem with using money as an incentive / disincentive. They play too many money games with cash for clunkers, or loans to develop the chevy volt and grants to buy a chevy volt and food stamps, and education grants, and sector 8 housing etc. The whole economy is perturbed. It makes college costs rise, plays with the price of cars, food, rent etc.

At this point the vast majority are taking part in government financing of some form and if you aren't in on it in some shape or form, you are hurting.

Doesn't matter if its the owner of a starbucks across the street from a university selling $7 coffee to students paying with loans or the owner of a convenience store selling $5 chips and soda to people buying with food stamps or getting your $12k chevy malibu during cash for clunkers, or working as a landlord of section 8 housing, or getting SNAP benefits yourself, or work as a university teacher paid for by grants, or go to college using grants, or whatever. The economy is 100% enveloped in this crap now. Ride it till the ride comes to a complete and total stop. Keep all arms and legs inside and buckle your seatbelt.

 

[OverVolt]

This is the problem I have with people like her. Four kids? With four DIFFERENT guys? We all make mistakes in our lives but come on.

Being poor =! excuses or reasons to make multiple mistakes over and over and over and......

At this rate the unproductive are out reproducing the productive. What happens when everyone is lazy and unproductive? Idiocracy? It's got electrolytes!

 

[Slew Foot]

Firstly, I'd say we need to both radically alter our current drug consumption laws in the US, and simply keep and/or increase penalties for crime while on substances. If people want to use, they can either use responsibly or rot in prison. And as a quick aside, I'd Tier prison quality by type of crime/number of crime. At some point, when you're on you're 3rd meth offense, you're simply going to a sh1thole that we simply don't care about the people in there - or, you can chose to be humanely euthanized.

As far as social services, it really needs to be revamped to be far more limited than it is now. Need a place to stay? No problem. You can stay in the community shelter. That means sleeping on a cot with 100 other people around you? Damn, that sucks. Need something to eat? No problem. Go to the grocery store, get the generic bulk ground beef marked for social services consumption, and buy it with your National ID card + unique personal pin. Don't have either of those? Either go hungry, or, hit up the soup kitchen.

Social services should exist to keep you alive so you're able to find work and support yourself, not so you can live like normal people. That is entirely the problem: We keep deluding people that they are normal while collecting social services - they are not. Stop the delusion.

Chuck

+1 rep

 

[nehalem256]

There is a welfare cliff. A single mom making around ~$33k gets $60k combined with government aid and tax returns. Up until $67k they have no motivation to get promotions or get new skills etc. The sweet spot is $20k - $42k.

Why is it that when talking about welfare single mothers inevitably are brought up?

 

[piasabird]

I scan financial Aid documents on a regular basis and sounds about right. If a person works at least for six months of the year, then the person is eligible for a personal deduction and a personal deduction for each child plus the Earned income credit and maybe even child care credits. Typically this can be $8,000 or more. I know this because I have seen the tax forms for many different people from small businesses, to farmers, to contractors to cases like this and people that have no real parents and live with friends. It is really tough out and around this country.

In some ways this sounds bad, but at least the person worked all year and earned some of the money herself. It is better than living off of welfare completely.

 

[piasabird]

I have mixed feelings about this subject. However Married people get some of the same benefits if they have 2-4 children over time. I think it is better to have a 2 parent family, due to better security with 2 jobs. It seems like the government is purposely steering people toward these single parent families because they can get more money from the government. Broken families are created by our government. This is the liberal caring utopia created by our government. Like it or hate it; this is reality.

 

[black_bishop]

that's assuming that both parents in a two parent family are able to work. what if only one is able to because of childcare, disability, low job market or whatever?