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120Hz and 3D.. just a bunch of BS?

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3D is bullshit and will soon be gone again like the previous times. And I would say 120Hz is as well. Tho some will claim otherwise and most likely see red 😛

GFX makers are essentially getting desperate. The redicilous AA modes have reached a limit. Then 3 screens didnt work out. 3D and 120Hz is the next steps.

120hz will not be going away, and should be standard for movies and tv viewing. Used for 24, 30, 60fps sources.
 
I can live without 3D and 120Hz for now,I must admit getting a bit fed up with my TN panel and will be going back to VA panel soon(seen a great review of BenQ AMVA panel with very low input lag etc) ,end of the day rather have better colours/viewing angles then 120Hz or 3D,I'm happy with my TN 60Hz in gaming however (apart from viewing angles/colours which as you know TNs are not very good at).

End of the day its a preference thing.

Absolutely, 3d may not be for everyone or for everyone at this time. The key is the industry is improving 3d stereo and great to see. If one doesn't like it -- hey, at least one has that choice not to like it. Personally desire a Holodeck!🙂
 
It is quite amusing the different views from individuals and how things are so subjective.
Absolutely. While I like discussing the mathematics behind 120Hz and input delay, these threads are about as useful as "Should I Upgrade?". I don't know, should you?
 
I enjoy the subjective discussions though and gamers' preferences. The key is someone takes the time to share their views for others to read. I think sometimes gamers and posters may forget this.

The vastness of different subjective views amazes me though.
 
Don't know if anybody saw my earlier post, so I quote myself

Is it possible those 120Hz monitor people are experiencing more fluid gameplay because of higher FPS (They will always try to get closer to the 120Hz Vsync and have powerfull hardware to do it), and not the fact that their monitor are 120Hz?

I say this, because when I play games like the witcher 2 on my 60Hz display it feels much more fluid at 80 - 110 + FPS Vsync Off VS 60FPS with Vsync ON. Not just the mouse response, but all feels much more fluid. Could this be the explanation to people claiming 120Hz displays feels so much better VS 60Hz displays?
 
Is it possible those 120Hz monitor people are experiencing more fluid gameplay because of higher FPS (They will always try to get closer to the 120Hz Vsync and have powerfull hardware to do it), and not the fact that their monitor are 120Hz?

I say this, because when I play games like the witcher 2 on my 60Hz display it feels much more fluid at 80 - 110 + FPS Vsync Off VS 60FPS with Vsync ON. Not just the mouse response, but all feels much more fluid. Could this be the explanation to people claiming 120Hz displays feels so much better VS 60Hz displays?
I would argue yes and no. Rendering time can vary widely from frame to frame. The discussion on microstuttering, pretty much sums the "yes" part of my answer. The game will feel smoother if you increase the minimums, yet retain the same average. An example of this is not going SLI, but lowering settings to compensate. This will have a smoother experience.

On the other hand, just strait up increasing the refresh rate is a different type of smoothing. This effect cannot be emulated by increased framerates alone. Some people's brains are excellent at interpolating what they see, for better or for worse. I'm sure many people can't see the difference between 60Hz or 120Hz, but there are many that can.

The simplest test to see if 120Hz vs IPS is right for you is to just look at what your current monitor is displaying. If you think: "Hey, I can distinguish every single frame, I bet if I saw twice as many it would look smoother" then it is a pretty safe bet you would benefit from 120Hz. On the other hand, if you can't make out each individual frame for the life of you, IPS or saving some money on a cheap TN might be the best option.
 
120hz is cool for gaming.. but not for TV viewing. If you have a careful eye, and the tv tries to "fake" it, you will notice very unnatural movement.. almost disorienting..

We just got a new HDTV, and the very FIRST THING we did was turn that bullshit motion crap OFF.

Running games in 120hz, assuming your PC can average the 120fps, the visuals will indeed be more fluid and the mouse more responsive.. its similar to why when we were on CRT's (capable of multiple HZ rates) all the top shooters in counterstrike back in the day would cap their FPS rate at the highest Hz their monitor could go.
 
nVidia and AMD are restricted in a sense based on the HDMI standard --- when a new HDMI standard is offered with more robust Stereo3d abilities -- next generation Television displays may offer a new, more robust version of HDMI.

Ryan touches on this:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5261/amd-radeon-hd-7970-review/8

According to the article "Fast HDMI" is a name given by AMD's marketing team. That's why I specifically mentioned high speed HDMI.

That's not important though. What is important is that high speed hdmi is very much already here. Actually 340Mhz signalling has been included in HDMI's specification since 2006. The required bandwidth for 1080P/120Hz (60+60) 3D is already available. Even if it was not, display port should be more than enough.

So my question stands, why haven't they used it yet?

The article mentions next gen TVs more than once. Where are they and what are they waiting for?
 
120hz is cool for gaming.. but not for TV viewing. If you have a careful eye, and the tv tries to "fake" it, you will notice very unnatural movement.. almost disorienting..

Yes, perhaps the "faking it" that TVs do, has given 120 Hz monitors an undeserved reputation. The TVs will create new frames to fill in the gaps between existing frames, so it's guessing at the best thing and trying to make it up.

The difference is that with 120 Hz monitors, you aren't faking the material at all, you are getting the correct information from the computer and faithfully reproducing it as intended from the source. There is no faking with 120 Hz monitors.
 
According to the article "Fast HDMI" is a name given by AMD's marketing team. That's why I specifically mentioned high speed HDMI.

That's not important though. What is important is that high speed hdmi is very much already here. Actually 340Mhz signalling has been included in HDMI's specification since 2006. The required bandwidth for 1080P/120Hz (60+60) 3D is already available. Even if it was not, display port should be more than enough.

So my question stands, why haven't they used it yet?

The article mentions next gen TVs more than once. Where are they and what are they waiting for?

I feel it is because of the restrictions of Stereo3d with the current HDMI standard.
 
1)3D looks very unnatural/surreal in games. (didn't get a chance to test in movies yet). Everything has a sort of "plastic" effect to it. Yes, the effect is quite cool, with all the depth of field and all, but the novelty factor wears off very fast, and I get this insatiable urge to stop using 3d and go back to regular view.

3D makes what you're looking at that little bit more real, it's a very hard effect to describe. The problem is that a lot of graphics are plastic-like in 2D and it's not a problem because we don't really believe the object is real because the image is 2D it helps your brain categorize that object as sort of a cartoon. This is what lends to the immersion power of 3D in games.

This was extremely pronounced on Flatout 2 for me, the cars suddenly went from feeling like regular racing cars in 2D to toy cars in 3D, they seemed more real in the sense that they were in front of me but that only highlights the flaws that they're actually pretty cartoony. It's not just me, people trying it for the first time immediately pointed out the exact same thing. Conversely games with more realistic characters such as the high detail close up models of the bad guys in Batman Arkham City cutscenes looked eerily real.

3D is a bit of a novelty but more than anything else it's main benefit is to increase immersiveness of a game, that works better with some games than others, shooting people online in CS it's just crap...but singleplayer games with atmosphere it really shines.

2)There is a very noticeable effect on the eyes and there is a form of dizziness... Not motion sickness, something else. Something very different that takes a while to wear off after every use. I cant imagine how that can possibly NOT have any health effects in the long term.

Eyestrain, a lot of active 3D systems cause this due to the flickering of the glasses, I'm not sure if you have 1st or 2nd gen Nvidia glasses but the 2nd generation I have don't cause any noticeable flicker at all, I've played for hours on end with them and been fine. To get the best experience you need the Nvidia Vision 2 kit with a Vision ready monitor, these are monitors with specific features to increase brightness of 3D and reduce flicker/eyestrain.

With my set up (specs in sig) I think 3D on my PC is actually superior to that in the cinema, I do get a bit of discomfort after a while in the cinema that I don't get at home.

3)A very large amount of people claim that 120Hz makes everything look better. General computer use, 2d and 3d games, etc. Many of these people further claim that the 120Hz has other amazing effects such as improving their performance in games because everything looks just so much better. They go as far as to say that 120Hz is better for the eyes!!! This is simply not true. I have a 25.5" 1920x1200 Asus 60Hz monitor on the wall a few inches away from the Acer and it looks just as good, and interestingly enough, JUST AS BIG.

It's likely you're misunderstanding peoples comments on 120hz, it doesn't improve image quality, it improves smoothness and responsiveness if you can run your media with a high enough frame rate to keep up. Back in the CRT days when monitors flickered higher refresh rates were easier on the eyes, LCD monitors don't suffer this issue though.

In fact the only 120hz panels are TN panels to my knowledge, which are a lot worse for image quality than PVA and IPS panels, so I don't know who's claiming that...

It is my personal opinion, but I believe its a crime to make 1080p monitors any smaller than 27 inches, and anyone who buys a smaller 1080p monitor is wasting their money.

I think a lot of people would say the opposite, 1080p @ 27" represents a very large dot pitch, the effective pixels per inch is much lower than a lot of other standard resolution/size combinations, 27" is a size much better suited for 2560x1440.
 
That's not important though. What is important is that high speed hdmi is very much already here. Actually 340Mhz signalling has been included in HDMI's specification since 2006. The required bandwidth for 1080P/120Hz (60+60) 3D is already available. Even if it was not, display port should be more than enough.

So my question stands, why haven't they used it yet?

The article mentions next gen TVs more than once. Where are they and what are they waiting for?

The bandwidth required for 1080p/120hz became available in HDMI 1.4, Nvidia have added beta support for 3D over HDMI 1.4 in their 300+ driver range, however you need a video card that is HDMI 1.4 output capable which limits you the newer video cards (forget the models), as well as a monitor that can accept a HDMI 1.4 signal which almost none of them do, the slightly more expensive version of my monitor the BenQ XL2420TX actually does and has a IR emitter built into bezel that works with Nvidia Vision when using HDMI 1.4

This is all still pretty new though and in beta right now, officially the requirements are DVI is required.
 
Thought I'd chime in on the debate: I own a BenQ 2420XL with Nvidia 3D Vision 2. I've been using it for a few months now, and here's my two cents on 3d and 120hz:

120 Hz is incredibly nice to use. Most definitely I'd prefer a 120 hz 1080p lcd vs an IPS display.
3D Vision depends entirely on the game. As a note regarding headaches: I never get them, people have told me since Nvidia's revision for 3d that it's far less common. There are games out there that have been optimized or run really well on 3d (BF3, Arkham City, Diablo 3) and they look amazing. Particularly AC, with full PhysX and 3d it's an incredible experience. On the other hand there are games like Tera which don't do 3d very well.
When I was going to buy a monitor I was stuck between my BenQ and the Yamasaki, which at the time they had not put those new PCB on to allow overclocking to 120hz. Had the 120 hz variant come out by then I may have jumped for it, but I'm definitely happy with my monitor.
 
3D is a bit of a novelty but more than anything else it's main benefit is to increase immersiveness of a game, that works better with some games than others, shooting people online in CS it's just crap...but singleplayer games with atmosphere it really shines.

One of my favorite aspects is immersion; to feel like I am inside the game itself. What 3d stereo does for me is provide that and at times brings immersion into my reality, meaning out-of-screen - which amazes me. However, it isn't ideal at all times -- all titles -- and look at it more as having 3d stereo flexibility for the applications that do shine - then having expectations in a blanket form --just 3d stereo and nothing else.

There are at times certain gaming memories that embed themselves -- and for me, this is one of them: Was playing World of WarCraft and was a Human Paladin in StormWind -- massive Horde Attack -- and what amazed me was the sheer amount of players and their effects; and how each model and effects had separation and form; and could make out clearly every model and effect instead of colors behind each other and mass confusion.

Another time was riding with my Paladin in Stranglethorn Vale and out of no where, flanked by a Tauren -- when flanked, the Tauren did go out-of-screen and nearly fell off my seat -- actually scared me for a second.
 
I would certainly like to have 120Hz, but the 1080p 120Hz displays on offer are a downgrade from my five year old existing Dell 2405FPW in every way except refresh rate/response. I don't feel like paying a substantial amount of money for a downgrade. 1440p with the equivalent of my current image quality and 120Hz would be an instant buy. If some cheap displays can be overclocked to handle that, why can't some large display manufacturer design a product actually specced and guaranteed to do it and sell it at double the price?

Though this is a matter of taste, I also hate the current 120Hz display looks and ergonomics. I want clean and understated, as in Dell pro series or Apple displays. I want standard VESA attachment for my monitor arm, not gimmicky fixed stands with poor adjustment options. None of this chrome stripe, LED, orange plastic ricer shit.
 
I get headache watching 3D stuff. I watched the Olympics (gymnastics ^^) with 3D on on my TV and could not I stand it for more than 10 minutes. I believe it's a very subjective matter, though. Some people may be OK with extended viewings.

On the other hand, 120 Hz is definitely something I'd like. Too bad they are all TNs.
 
I would certainly like to have 120Hz, but the 1080p 120Hz displays on offer are a downgrade from my five year old existing Dell 2405FPW in every way except refresh rate/response. I don't feel like paying a substantial amount of money for a downgrade. 1440p with the equivalent of my current image quality and 120Hz would be an instant buy. If some cheap displays can be overclocked to handle that, why can't some large display manufacturer design a product actually specced and guaranteed to do it and sell it at double the price?

Though this is a matter of taste, I also hate the current 120Hz display looks and ergonomics. I want clean and understated, as in Dell pro series or Apple displays. I want standard VESA attachment for my monitor arm, not gimmicky fixed stands with poor adjustment options. None of this chrome stripe, LED, orange plastic ricer shit.

I hope the day comes soon when we can have an IPS type panel (or better?) that can deliver 120Hz of gaming pleasure🙂

Maybe a year or so?
 
I hope the day comes soon when we can have an IPS type panel (or better?) that can deliver 120Hz of gaming pleasure🙂

Maybe a year or so?

I sure hope so. 3D will die off again like it did in the 1980s as far as I'm concerned, but 120hz is really nice for gaming.

I doubt next year though. Probably a good few years. Seems it's feasible to design and release a perfectly functioning 120hz IPS screen from seeing people overclock those Korean IPS panels and achieve it. I just think there is no interest from a manufacturer to put the effort into it. 1080P TN panels are probably where it makes sense as this is what the vast majority of most gamers probably buy, not $1200 30" IPS screens and $600 24" IPS screens.

I would buy one for $2000, but anything over that would be too much for the luxury of having it.
 
One of the biggest problems with 120hz screens in the larger sizes of 2560x1440 and 2560x1600 is the bandwidth of the cables, I don't think DL-DVI, HDMI 1.4 or even Display Port have the bandwidth capable of true 2560x1600 120hz with full colour.

I'd love a 120Hz IPS panel though, I'd dump both my 120Hz TN and 30" IPS for one 🙂
 
One of the biggest problems with 120hz screens in the larger sizes of 2560x1440 and 2560x1600 is the bandwidth of the cables, I don't think DL-DVI, HDMI 1.4 or even Display Port have the bandwidth capable of true 2560x1600 120hz with full colour.

I'd love a 120Hz IPS panel though, I'd dump both my 120Hz TN and 30" IPS for one 🙂
Displayport 1.2 does have the bandwidth. We just need displays.
 
120HZ 2d gaming is very much worth it if you play FPS games and can manage over 60fps. you don't need 120fps to see benefit. Anything over 60 starts to look increasingly more crisp when panning around.
Playing the occasional 3D game is fine, but I don't do it often. Watching 3D blu-rays is where its at. This is bitchin. Watched transformers and the glasses were glued to my face the whole time and watching in 3D makes it more immersive and more fun = BOOM worth it.
 
Another title that was a hoot to play in 3d was Diablo 3. The game has nice physics, explosions and debris -- and with 3d stereo everything added by the physics has much more shape-and-form. I really get a kick out of destroyed models and debris when they break up, with pieces that go out-of-screen. Also the backdrops and the artwork look stunning - kinda reminds me of Trine and Trine 2 backdrops or background.

3d may not be for everyone but depending on application and subjective preferences - very welcomed for flexibility.
 
Another title that was a hoot to play in 3d was Diablo 3. The game has nice physics, explosions and debris -- and with 3d stereo everything added by the physics has much more shape-and-form. I really get a kick out of destroyed models and debris when they break up, with pieces that go out-of-screen. Also the backdrops and the artwork look stunning - kinda reminds me of Trine and Trine 2 backdrops or background.

3d may not be for everyone but depending on application and subjective preferences - very welcomed for flexibility.

You are right in that 3d is not for everyone. I saw a game in 3d at my friends house and it made me feel sick and gave me a headache. To be fair, I have an eye condition and my eyes are more sensitive than others.

I am one of those people that need a monitor that has good picture quality and viewing angles. I need an IPS monitor although I like FPS games. Now, you see my dilemma?

I guess a Dell U2412M might be the closest monitor that fits the bill?
 
Absolutely, 3d stereo isn't for everyone. Personally was an early adopter back in the Voodoo 2 days, with the Wicked 3d SLi and their Metabyte EyeScream glasses for some 1024 x 1024 gaming in 3d stereo, hehe!🙂

However, with the invent of flat displays, stereo3d did take a backseat but now maturing once again, with choice to consider, as displays are moving beyond 60hz.
 
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