10k oil changes?

[Throckmorton]

Mobil 1 in the gold bottle is supposedly genuine synthetic, which I believe lasts very long without shearing. They used to gaurantee 15000 miles but I think they stopped because some cars can't go that long even on the good stuff. There is a special long life filter that they sell too.

 

[Meghan54]

Wrong, oil can shear which does wear it out.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm

Actually, from what that and every other article I've ever read about shearing in oil says is that the viscosity additives are responsible for the breakdown and shearing in the oil, not the oil itself failing. Re-read the article.....

The salient sentence:

[FONT=Helvetica,Arial]As the oil passes through the engine, these molecules are permanently sheared or torn apart over time, causing the additive to lose its viscosity-contributing advantages which reduces the oils ability to maintain its higher number. ie.. 10w30 [/FONT]

It's the additives that are responsible for maintaining the viscosity index that causes the problem. Oil isn't naturally a 5w-30, it's a 5W or 10W. Additives are added to create and maintain the higher viscosity index number and it's those additives that shear causing the oil to return to its "natural" lower viscosity index number. So, the oil itself doesn't wear out, it's the additives.

Shearing is more problematic with oils that have wider viscosity indexes, like 5w-30 or 20w-50. The narrower the viscosity range, the smaller the problem of viscosity breakdown and shearing. A 10w-30 will have fewer problems maintaining that 30W than a 5w-30. The wider the viscosity index, the more likely the problem of shearing will crop up.

 

[dkm777]

FIY, for a Volvo D5 the oil change interval is 15k according to the manual. Mine has over 190k on the clock, serviced at the dealership, exactly as the manual states with no engine problems.

 

[pandemonium]

A good full synthetic can easily last you 10k oil change intervals and beyond. And yes, good implies there are lesser synthetics. I personally use AMSOIL SAE's oil line.

Honda's maintenance minder thingy has a range calculation that takes in factors of mileage, time, engine temperatures, and load; based on what their engineers have set as minimum and maximum for each specific engine. They stopped putting in maintenance mileage notes because the maintenance minder calculates the maintenance to a more personalized and reliable notification for that specific vehicle based on how it's driven.

With the above said, it all depends on several factors for how long you can go between changing your oil:
-is the vehicle constantly run to redline?
-is the vehicle constantly towing or have heavy load capacities?
-is there any modified work done or aftermarket components being used (e.g. intake, exhaust)?
-are there any known issues that would adversely affect the engine (e.g. blown head gasket, leaking seals, etc.) [This should obviously be fixed A.S.A.P. and I'm not endorsing otherwise. 😛]

If you can say no to all of the above then you're likely able to get 10k-25k out of a good synthetic oil. The unfortunate thing about that is, the maintenance minder's maximum is somewhere around 9k I believe, so it'll constantly prompt you to change the oil even though it may not be necessary.

The absolute best way to know for certain is to have the oil analyzed by a tester company for deposits and breakdown. Most individuals won't do this, since it requires a sample be sent off and costs about the same as changing the oil anyways, but it definitely is a good way to know exactly how the engine's health is.

 

[Gillbot]

Actually, from what that and every other article I've ever read about shearing in oil says is that the viscosity additives are responsible for the breakdown and shearing in the oil, not the oil itself failing. Re-read the article.....

The salient sentence:

It's the additives that are responsible for maintaining the viscosity index that causes the problem. Oil isn't naturally a 5w-30, it's a 5W or 10W. Additives are added to create and maintain the higher viscosity index number and it's those additives that shear causing the oil to return to its "natural" lower viscosity index number. So, the oil itself doesn't wear out, it's the additives.

Shearing is more problematic with oils that have wider viscosity indexes, like 5w-30 or 20w-50. The narrower the viscosity range, the smaller the problem of viscosity breakdown and shearing. A 10w-30 will have fewer problems maintaining that 30W than a 5w-30. The wider the viscosity index, the more likely the problem of shearing will crop up.

But you overlooked the main point of the article telling you that you are no longer protected because of the decrease in viscosity. Unless you run a heavier weight oil or single weight, it still wears.

EDIT: Posting a blanket statement inferring that oil doesn't wear out is just silly. You don't know what oil people are using and what they may deduce from your statement.

Technically Oil doesn't wear out.

 

[jagec]

EDIT: Posting a blanket statement inferring that oil doesn't wear out is just silly. You don't know what oil people are using and what they may deduce from your statement.

Technically milk doesn't go bad...it's just the proteins and fats in the milk that don't last.

But the water (which makes up 90% of millk) is fine!

 

[Meghan54]

But you overlooked the main point of the article telling you that you are no longer protected because of the decrease in viscosity. Unless you run a heavier weight oil or single weight, it still wears.

EDIT: Posting a blanket statement inferring that oil doesn't wear out is just silly. You don't know what oil people are using and what they may deduce from your statement.

And I knew you'd miss the point.

You keep referring to protection, etc. No one is disputing the ADDITIVES in the oil responsible for protection, dirt carrying capacity/suspension, etc., can and do wear out.

What the "oil doesn't wear out" reference is made to is that the underlying oil.....before additives, etc. are put into it, does not wear out. True, there's no protection and horrible lubricity, suspension of dirt, and on and on, but oil itself does not "wear out". That is a blanket statement and is also true. Oil doesn't become non-oil in use; that was the essence of the statement, it remains oil.

 

[Gillbot]

And I knew you'd miss the point.

You keep referring to protection, etc. No one is disputing the ADDITIVES in the oil responsible for protection, dirt carrying capacity/suspension, etc., can and do wear out.

What the "oil doesn't wear out" reference is made to is that the underlying oil.....before additives, etc. are put into it, does not wear out. True, there's no protection and horrible lubricity, suspension of dirt, and on and on, but oil itself does not "wear out". That is a blanket statement and is also true. Oil doesn't become non-oil in use; that was the essence of the statement, it remains oil.

So do you use recycled oil in your vehicles? I mean, the base oil doesn't wear out and if properly filtered, it's fine right?

 

[MiataNC]

So do you use recycled oil in your vehicles? I mean, the base oil doesn't wear out and if properly filtered, it's fine right?

More and more people do every day...

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=can-oil-be-recycled&page=2

Today, with modern technologies, you could use it for passenger car motor oil, automatic transmission fluid, hydraulic fluid, heavy-duty motor oil. There's no difference between oils re-refined with modern technologies and refined oil from virgin crude.

 

[chucky2]

Not really looking to get involved in a oil debate, but just wanted to throw out there that, Yes, an oil will shear - sometimes relatively quickly - but then thicken back to starting cSt and then surpass that as more and more time goes on. Unless one were to go stupid overdue on an OCI, it's not like you'll go from a low 30W to a high 40W or 50W, but, the oil will thicken back up.

TBN and TAN, along with resulting wear indicators after a long OCI, are far more useful indicators to how long you can push an OCI for a given usage scenario on a given oil and vehicle.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Every 5k even with Synthetic.

Feel free to do some Oil analysis at 5k -10k and even 15k and see how that goes. It's been done before and it's clear that even at 7k you are pushing it (yes even with Synthetic).

Also ANY auto maker that recommends 15k Oil changes = insane. I would not touch with a 100 ft pole. Clearly they are setting up future service/parts sales (which BTW makes up LARGE portion of most dealers revenue). I know # of Service Advisers and Manager....lot of these cars are set up JUST to get you over the warranty hump, WATCH OUT after (especially for luxury/high priced cars). They have seen TONS of cars with engine issues around 100k mark (mostly BMW and MB).

Same goes for cars with no dip stick. Let me think about this for a min. German cars have a LONG history of electronic issues and now you want me to rely on electronics to tell me when to change oil or check the level?

No thanks

I do mine at 5-7k. it's never too early to do an oil change.....

 

[chucky2]

I'm not sure I'd necessairily agree with that. In a properly operating vehicle under normal operating conditions, it may be better to do 10k mi changes with a good synthetic than 3k mi changes with a good synthetic/good dino.

Reason?

Most people don't pre-fill their oil filters. Doing more changes leads to more starts with a dry oil filter...not good.

 

[LTC8K6]

Filling the oil filter with oil is not necessary on any regular street car or truck engine, imo.

If you have a big diesel with large oil filters, then I'd fill the new oil filter.

For my 5.7L Hemi, no.

It doesn't hurt anything, but it's not necessary on a healthy engine, imo.

It's one of those ideas that is debated to death on the internet, with both sides clinging grimly to their position.

 

[7window]

Every 5k even with Synthetic.

Feel free to do some Oil analysis at 5k -10k and even 15k and see how that goes. It's been done before and it's clear that even at 7k you are pushing it (yes even with Synthetic).

Also ANY auto maker that recommends 15k Oil changes = insane. I would not touch with a 100 ft pole. Clearly they are setting up future service/parts sales (which BTW makes up LARGE portion of most dealers revenue). I know # of Service Advisers and Manager....lot of these cars are set up JUST to get you over the warranty hump, WATCH OUT after (especially for luxury/high priced cars). They have seen TONS of cars with engine issues around 100k mark (mostly BMW and MB).

Same goes for cars with no dip stick. Let me think about this for a min. German cars have a LONG history of electronic issues and now you want me to rely on electronics to tell me when to change oil or check the level?

No thanks

I do mine at 5-7k. it's never too early to do an oil change.....

can you provide evidence for this or link? I am just curious


Also why is everyone here worried if the filter will last long? Just wonder? If you guys get a good filter like wix or purolator it should last 10k. Am I wrong on this?


Anyone use walmart synthetic oil

 

[chucky2]

Filling the oil filter with oil is not necessary on any regular street car or truck engine, imo.

If you have a big diesel with large oil filters, then I'd fill the new oil filter.

For my 5.7L Hemi, no.

It doesn't hurt anything, but it's not necessary on a healthy engine, imo.

It's one of those ideas that is debated to death on the internet, with both sides clinging grimly to their position.

Hurt is a relative term though. What I'm talking about really is wear. Someone who changes their oil at 3k mi instead of 10k mi is changing certainly not because it's more convenient (it's less convenient), but because they don't perceive the 10k mi OCI as safe in regards to wear as the 3k mi OCI - else, why not just change at 10k mi OCI?

If I don't pre-fill the oil filter on my '03 Ford Ranger, 4.0L V-6 SOHC, there is a distinctive sound from the engine for a very short few seconds while the oil filter is being pumped up. If I pre-fill, no such sound. EDIT: And to be clear, it's not a nice sound.

Could the wear be detected short of a teardown and then measured? I doubt it. But the same could be said for a 3k mi vs. 10k mi OCI.

My point is, I think I'd rather run 10k mi OCI on a good synthetic rather than 3, 3k mi OCI on a decent dino w/ 3 dry filter changes. I'm saying I'd guess that the wear is less from the 10k mi OCI than it is from the 3 3k mi OCI, just from the 1 dry vs 3 dry filter starts alone.

Chuck

 

[7window]

I like the idea of prefilling but most filter are sideways. So only a fourth or less stay in the filter when you prefill.

 

[nerp]

You could start a thread titled "oil," type the word "oil" in the body and nothing else, post it, and it would have dozens of replies.

 

[Gillbot]

Every 5k even with Synthetic.

Feel free to do some Oil analysis at 5k -10k and even 15k and see how that goes. It's been done before and it's clear that even at 7k you are pushing it (yes even with Synthetic).

Also ANY auto maker that recommends 15k Oil changes = insane. I would not touch with a 100 ft pole. Clearly they are setting up future service/parts sales (which BTW makes up LARGE portion of most dealers revenue). I know # of Service Advisers and Manager....lot of these cars are set up JUST to get you over the warranty hump, WATCH OUT after (especially for luxury/high priced cars). They have seen TONS of cars with engine issues around 100k mark (mostly BMW and MB).

Same goes for cars with no dip stick. Let me think about this for a min. German cars have a LONG history of electronic issues and now you want me to rely on electronics to tell me when to change oil or check the level?

No thanks

I do mine at 5-7k. it's never too early to do an oil change.....

I pull samples on all my changes. Using regular oil, it's fine even at 8k. It all boils down to driving habits and environmental conditions.

can you provide evidence for this or link? I am just curious


Also why is everyone here worried if the filter will last long? Just wonder? If you guys get a good filter like wix or purolator it should last 10k. Am I wrong on this?


Anyone use walmart synthetic oil

Check BITOG, walmart syn used to be pretty good stuff but I haven't kept up with it.

Hurt is a relative term though. What I'm talking about really is wear. Someone who changes their oil at 3k mi instead of 10k mi is changing certainly not because it's more convenient (it's less convenient), but because they don't perceive the 10k mi OCI as safe in regards to wear as the 3k mi OCI - else, why not just change at 10k mi OCI?

If I don't pre-fill the oil filter on my '03 Ford Ranger, 4.0L V-6 SOHC, there is a distinctive sound from the engine for a very short few seconds while the oil filter is being pumped up. If I pre-fill, no such sound. EDIT: And to be clear, it's not a nice sound.

Could the wear be detected short of a teardown and then measured? I doubt it. But the same could be said for a 3k mi vs. 10k mi OCI.

My point is, I think I'd rather run 10k mi OCI on a good synthetic rather than 3, 3k mi OCI on a decent dino w/ 3 dry filter changes. I'm saying I'd guess that the wear is less from the 10k mi OCI than it is from the 3 3k mi OCI, just from the 1 dry vs 3 dry filter starts alone.

Chuck

Prefilling should only affect on the first start. If you get noises with every start, you have other issues. There should be an anti-drainback valve on the filter to keep oil in place for starts.

 

[LTC8K6]

Hurt is a relative term though. What I'm talking about really is wear. Someone who changes their oil at 3k mi instead of 10k mi is changing certainly not because it's more convenient (it's less convenient), but because they don't perceive the 10k mi OCI as safe in regards to wear as the 3k mi OCI - else, why not just change at 10k mi OCI?

If I don't pre-fill the oil filter on my '03 Ford Ranger, 4.0L V-6 SOHC, there is a distinctive sound from the engine for a very short few seconds while the oil filter is being pumped up. If I pre-fill, no such sound. EDIT: And to be clear, it's not a nice sound.

Could the wear be detected short of a teardown and then measured? I doubt it. But the same could be said for a 3k mi vs. 10k mi OCI.

My point is, I think I'd rather run 10k mi OCI on a good synthetic rather than 3, 3k mi OCI on a decent dino w/ 3 dry filter changes. I'm saying I'd guess that the wear is less from the 10k mi OCI than it is from the 3 3k mi OCI, just from the 1 dry vs 3 dry filter starts alone.

Chuck

I said filling the filter wouldn't hurt. I didn't say not filling it wouldn't hurt. Some manuals do instruct you to fill the oil filter with oil. I have no problem with anyone who fills the filter, provided they know what they are doing.

I read that there were incidents of pieces of the foil from the oil bottle seal being poured in with the oil into the filter, and blocking oil passages in Cummins diesels. So, you can't be an idiot.

The sound at startup isn't necessarily anything to worry about. Hydraulic lifters or roller tappets will make noise until they are completely full, but they are still lubricated. Your engine still has a good oil film.

 

[chucky2]

snip

Prefilling should only affect on the first start. If you get noises with every start, you have other issues. There should be an anti-drainback valve on the filter to keep oil in place for starts.

For sure. But that's what I'm saying: Do you want 1 start with a dry filter or 3 starts with a dry filter? Is the additional potential wear greater with 2 extra dry filter starts or going 7k mi more on an OCI with a hardier oil?

Would be interesting to know for sure in a measured fashion, but I doubt anyone has done it.

 

[chucky2]

I said filling the filter wouldn't hurt. I didn't say not filling it wouldn't hurt. Some manuals do instruct you to fill the oil filter with oil. I have no problem with anyone who fills the filter, provided they know what they are doing.

I must have misunderstood you when you said this then: "Filling the oil filter with oil is not necessary on any regular street car or truck engine, imo." If I did sorry about that.

I read that there were incidents of pieces of the foil from the oil bottle seal being poured in with the oil into the filter, and blocking oil passages in Cummins diesels. So, you can't be an idiot.

Sure, but if that was going to happen it'd actually be better during filter fill up than at the other fill up: crankcase. Because once someone starts pouring it into the funnel, it's pretty darn likely even if they see the debris hit the funnel, it'll be too late to catch it before it's inside the engine. What then? At least with the debris going in the filter, you just get another filter and you're back in business.

The sound at startup isn't necessarily anything to worry about. Hydraulic lifters or roller tappets will make noise until they are completely full, but they are still lubricated. Your engine still has a good oil film.

Well it sure doesn't sound like it. To me, it sounds not quite metal on metal but damn close. In fact it's what got me pre-filling my filter in the first place (threaded end is facing up on my setup, straight shot in, so I can pre-fill all the way). Once I started doing that, zero startup noise on first start after oil change.

Chuck

 

[Throckmorton]

I must have misunderstood you when you said this then: "Filling the oil filter with oil is not necessary on any regular street car or truck engine, imo." If I did sorry about that.



Sure, but if that was going to happen it'd actually be better during filter fill up than at the other fill up: crankcase. Because once someone starts pouring it into the funnel, it's pretty darn likely even if they see the debris hit the funnel, it'll be too late to catch it before it's inside the engine. What then? At least with the debris going in the filter, you just get another filter and you're back in business.



Well it sure doesn't sound like it. To me, it sounds not quite metal on metal but damn close. In fact it's what got me pre-filling my filter in the first place (threaded end is facing up on my setup, straight shot in, so I can pre-fill all the way). Once I started doing that, zero startup noise on first start after oil change.

Chuck

The first place the oil goes from the crank case is the filter right? So that takes care of the foil

 

[chucky2]

The first place the oil goes from the crank case is the filter right? So that takes care of the foil

Not sure honestly. I wouldn't want to find out...

 

[Aharami]

My 2013 Fusion uses a blend and has a notify sensor that hasn't come on at 8200. From everything I read it's going to be 10k increments.

uses a blend? special oil required for the fusion? I was planning on using Mobil 1 5w-30 synthetic

 

[chucky2]

uses a blend? special oil required for the fusion? I was planning on using Mobil 1 5w-30 synthetic

I think what he means is a semi-synthetic. So not just dino, not what is considered full synthetic, but a blend aka semi-synthetic.

If the Fusion is rated for a 20W then use a 20W. Using a 20W won't hurt a bit unless you've got some reason for high fuel dilution and/or coolant ingestion, and over the life of the vehicle might save you some $ in improved fuel economy. Alternately, using a 30W wouldn't hurt either. If you're wanting Mobil-1, then if your Fusion calls for a 20W you'd use Mobil-1 0W-20.

Chuck