$1000 Budget for first film. Need suggestions.

[Kaido]

Wellp I got the camera yesterday, but it shows a lot of 'lagging'/'Studdering' when put the video onto my PC. However I dont think the video itself is corrupt, its gotta be something else. Some examples of when the problem is evidentt, and not evident.

Evident:
1. When RAW video is taken from the camera and put onto desktop and played. - Very evident.
2. When RAW video is put into Sony Vegas video editor. - MUCH more evident.

Not Evident:
1. When RAW video is put onto Youtube. - Problem is gone 100% (See links below)
2. When RAW video is rendered in Sony Vegas (Encoded w/ 8mbps 1080p 30fps). - Problem is gone 100%.
3. When viewing through the LCD screen on the camera itself. - Problem is not there.
The problem seems to be with my PC and not the camera.

Some facts:
1. Video is taken in 30FPS.
2. Video is in 1080P.
3. Typically, video in Sony Vegas usually plays smooth after a few previews, however it is impossible to make this video appear smooth in the program using the RAW 1080p camera footage.

Video(s):
1. RAW video uploaded directly to youtube. (Notice no studdering) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_6yi8ieBiA
2. RAW video that I see (Camera pointed at my monitor showing exactly what I see). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrZsRIZati8
3. RAW video that Vegas sees. (Camera pointed at my monitor showing exactly what I see). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ0j2DrWTUc

I don't think I can film anything until this issue is resolved... I dunno what to do
-720p does the same thing.

Do you have the appropriate video player & codecs? (ex. VLC & CCCP). Playback within the editor can be choppy depending on the codec (haven't tried RAW in Vegas). Can you post a small RAW sample that stutters on Rapidshare or somewhere? Also what kind of hard drive do you have?

 

[Kaido]

Your lag in viewing RAW at 1080p and in Vegas are the joy of editing. My editor can get 1080i HDV (M2V) to play seamlessly because it uses DirectX to process the video. Vegas has some OpenGL acceleration from what other editors have said, but I don't know a thing about setting it up. The reason the posted videos don't stutter is that they are set to a compression ratio tuned for a display. This is where you get into the whole 3 volumes on an editor, the correct video card, a hardware accelerator, etc.

Yeah...video editing can sometimes be a research project. That's why I'm such a workflow evangelist...nail your workflow and get that HUGE problem out of the way before you even start your first project, and you're set after that. Otherwise it's just constant headaches. So many people up and quit after 2 weeks because they don't get their workflow down. It's difficult to figure out, but once you have a standard method for doing things, you're golden!

 

[Kaido]

Interesting. Well darn that sucks lol. I mean it even happens in 720p, I thought that at least would be lag free but I suppose not. I downloaded a few 200MB HD .MOV movie trailers about an hour ago to see if they lagged as bad as this and they didn't lag at all...

As far as the camera itself, I have a LOT to learn yet. I've got about $1300 to spare for accessories aside from the camera and I'm starting to have second thoughts on the lighting/audio. My tripod is 'ok' but it isn't great.. I don't have a slider, a view finder for filming on a bright and sunny day, you name it I'm missing it. I'm starting to think it might be a better idea to get these essentials first and then work my way up from there rather than purchasing a bunch of expensive audio/lighting equipment when the shot to begin with is messed up.. *sigh* I dunno. I don't even know what type of films I should start trying to work on because of these constraints.

I probably should revamp the entire OP lol, all of this is getting a little messy :X

Here's a tip - get the toys you want, because you'll be happier using your new toys and look forward to playing with them, which means you'll USE your new toys and not let them collect dust. There's a TON of equipment to get (I don't even have half of what I want for my "basic kit" and I've been doing this for years!! lol), but just kind of piecemeal it as you go.

A good tripod is essential in my book. I have a Velbon DV-7000 (two actually, and another couple of heads for my Gorillapods) and it's really great for the money. Shoot, I need to start posting some videos of this stuff lol. I have Friday off, so I'll try to get a couple clips up to explain some of the goodies that are out there.

 

[Kaido]

did anyone ask or did you say what kind of film you are planning on making.
all this dslr talk is great if you want to hang out on forums like hv20 and post test footage of foilage and your backyard.
is it an action film? if you plan on shooting action, you will regret it if you put everything into one camera. multiple camera angles and shots beat one shot, and multiple retakes to get other angles. filming conversations with one camera, hope you have some patience, unless you are doing it all from one angle.
going to use a dslr with a steadicam? hope you have set focus and don't move from it, otherwise you are going to have a lot of footage where the focus is questionable.
if you are shooting static things, or set shots, the dslr can't be beat, you'll get great results, but if things are moving, and you don't have your skills down pushing or pulling focus, you're in for a mess.
audio is a big part of the factor, but video is just as important. you wouldn't use one mic, why would you use one camera?
while i like the H4n, i really love the H2n. by itself, it records better, can be hidden practically anywhere, is smaller and has better battery life. it doesn't have xlr or some of the other features, but it's nice being able to record quad in a conversation without any other mics, it has less noise then the h4, and costs less, a lot less.

all in all, it depends on what you want to shoot. if it's some art house stuff or trees and bushes blowing in the wind to show off rack focus, then go dslr. if you want to do anything more like film, you'd be better shooting with more then one camera.

Good point! I do want to say, filming with more than one camera is a pretty big step forward for someone who is new to video cameras. Not that it can't be done, but there's a lot to learn when first starting out about exposure, shots, equipment, editing, and so on - throwing a second camera in there right away can be overwhelming. I still only shoot with one camera myself

Also, you can get by with some sneaky tricks for multi-angle shots with only one camera. A lot of TV shows only have one camera at a time available, unlike big-budget Hollywood movies, so they have to be create about what they film, filler shots, etc. Look at Heroes, for example - a lot of times the person talking will be shot from the front, then around from the back, but you can't see their lips moving - an easy fill-in shot that makes it look seamless, but with only one camera.

So you really like the H2 more than the H4n? The H4n sounds so much better to me. And off-topic a bit, I picked up some binaural mics for my H2 recently and have been having a blast with those...thank goodness the H2 is small haha.

 

[theblackbox]

Good point! I do want to say, filming with more than one camera is a pretty big step forward for someone who is new to video cameras. Not that it can't be done, but there's a lot to learn when first starting out about exposure, shots, equipment, editing, and so on - throwing a second camera in there right away can be overwhelming. I still only shoot with one camera myself

Also, you can get by with some sneaky tricks for multi-angle shots with only one camera. A lot of TV shows only have one camera at a time available, unlike big-budget Hollywood movies, so they have to be create about what they film, filler shots, etc. Look at Heroes, for example - a lot of times the person talking will be shot from the front, then around from the back, but you can't see their lips moving - an easy fill-in shot that makes it look seamless, but with only one camera.

So you really like the H2 more than the H4n? The H4n sounds so much better to me. And off-topic a bit, I picked up some binaural mics for my H2 recently and have been having a blast with those...thank goodness the H2 is small haha.

even though the h2 feels like a much cheaper piece of plastic, and the on/off button has to be the worst thing ever made, i always worry about it falling off, i find that it is much more versatile and more entertaining then the h4. placement of the mic with both front and back on gives you great depth recording conversations, and you can hide it behind and around props. i've found a soda can does a great job for killing line of site on the h2 sitting on a table.


i think you have to put a lot more thought and a lot more work into filming certain things with a single camera. especially if you plan on having any action shots, wide angle shots that you are hoping to have several angles on (continuity is a bitch) and other things.
yes, there are work arounds, such as you provided with heroes. i can't say i like it or the feel of it when you use filler to make the illusion of the conversation, i've seen several times where it distracts from the scene and doesn't work well.

yeah, it's a lot to take in, editing becomes a whole different game, and audio gets to be more interesting syncing more video sources, but the gain you get from it is monumental. plus, you don't get stuck with one look.

i've seen too many videos online that have that same look, people overly excited by DOF they get from dslr or slr adapter, and they lose sight of what can be gained. too many people that really don't get the concept of how to rack focus and use it for the effect instead of for the focus of the film.


i'm getting to the point myself where i try to simplify, carry less, and get more out of what i do bring with me. may not work for everyone, but it sure makes getting ready easy.

 

[JSt0rm]

hey there.

You should try to work at 29.976fps or 23.98. You will need to do the pull down on the audio at some point as most audio work is done at these frame rates in the united states.

 

[Coldkilla]

@Theblackbox: I have no idea what type of film I will be making. Theres all these factors that have yet to come into play: If I don't spend $ on audio it has to be a silent film. If I don't spend $ on lighting it has to be an outside film. If the people I plan on working with during the filming project(s) can't keep their head in the game I wont be able to use actors but will need to focus more on abstract films. The type of film will also be the basis for the type of lens I have/need... Theres so many different factors involved I have no idea what I should be focusing on.

@Kaido: I do have CCCP, I'll try K-Lite/VLC. I am uploading the clip from those previous links now. As for the gear I 'want', I guess the main things I've noticed that might be the most beneficial would be: A good tripod, a slider system and a Z-Finder, add in the accessories that I haven't purchased yet (extra batteries, battery grip, etc), that'll most likely take the rest of my $1300 up pretty quickly. I could shoot some abstract video for a while (until I can get some money for some other equipment), and in the mean time test out to see weather or not the few people I know will be able to function in front of the camera or not.. contrary to whether or not they say they can lol.

@JSt0rm01: I'll try and remember that. Personally I have no idea why .024FPS makes a difference between 30fps & 29.976 but I'll try to keep that in mind.

Edit: @Kaido, the videos up. http://www.filefront.com/15993231/MVI_0154.MOV

 

[gsellis]

Yeah...video editing can sometimes be a research project. That's why I'm such a workflow evangelist...nail your workflow and get that HUGE problem out of the way before you even start your first project, and you're set after that. Otherwise it's just constant headaches. So many people up and quit after 2 weeks because they don't get their workflow down. It's difficult to figure out, but once you have a standard method for doing things, you're golden!

Gary over at Video Guys pointed out in the article I linked that the Vegas workflow seems to have this problem with lagging. If those guys are having issues.... hmmm.

@Coldkilla - hang out on the Vegas boards a bit. See if anyone has got it. There are some film boards too. I always used dvinfo.net, but I don't remember seeing Vegas and DSLR mentioned in the same post. BUT, I don't hang out in the Vegas subsection either.

 

[theblackbox]

@Theblackbox: I have no idea what type of film I will be making. Theres all these factors that have yet to come into play: If I don't spend $ on audio it has to be a silent film. If I don't spend $ on lighting it has to be an outside film. If the people I plan on working with during the filming project(s) can't keep their head in the game I wont be able to use actors but will need to focus more on abstract films. The type of film will also be the basis for the type of lens I have/need... Theres so many different factors involved I have no idea what I should be focusing on.

i thought you already had a script in hand?
from your first post:

"I've got a screenplay and a script all done, I just need some stuff!"

it seems all you think about is what to spend money on and that you need to spend money or you can't do something.
to me it sounds like you are going to spend all this money and not be anywhere further then you are now and just have a closet full of stuff that isn't helping you to make a film or get into the hobby.
i know a very good number of amateur video people that just have a camera, a mic, and make their own light setups and operate on a shoe string budget and pull of good stuff. they spend what little money they have to keep the talent happy with food and beverage.
it doesn't take money or lots of equipment to make a short film.
it takes effort.
thats it.
if you don't have a ton of audio equipment, it won't be silent. with a single video recorder and some ingenuity, you can put together some great audio.
i've seen people with a bare minimum of lighting equipment find ways to shoot beyond what they had in hand.
all your fancy equipment isn't worth diddly if you can't get people motivated and excited to work on your project and keep them happy. if you can't muster the talent and keep them occupied, you'll find you'll be filming a lot of rain, leaves, flowers, and other stuff in your backyard pulling focus, editing it with new age music and calling it test footage and posting it.
equipment is neat and fancy, but it's just equipment. you seem to have this black and white image of how it has to be. if you don't spend money you can't do something.

that would be the same as thinking, well if i don't buy symphony, i can't edit video. thats bogus.
i don't use vegas but have heard it's a phenomenal tool for what it is, and very capable. (i'm a mac user)

you can do a lot with a camera, a decent mic, a boom pole, some lighting, editing software and the mindset to want to do something.

equipment won't make the movie, only you can do that.

 

[theblackbox]

old article but still fitting

http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/09/16/editing-canon-5d7d-footage-on-windows/



i downloaded your footage to take a look at it.

ran it on my 13" macbook pro 2.26 dual core with 4gb ram and a 7200rpm drive.

opened footage full screen no stuttering, ran smooth as footage should
opened in premiere and of course it stuttered, wouldn't expect anything less from premiere.
opened in fcp and it ran just as well as it did full screen.
imovie ran it fine full screen too, although imovie had to optimize it, took about 45 seconds.
of course, the fact the footage is h264 mov doesn't hurt since fcp is well integrated with quicktime.
but still, on a base mac, thats not too shabby.
only thing i saw was a little rolling shutter at about 1:18 probably due to movement and that quick pan.

thats a small file too, i usually don't see playback issues with files until i hit about 2 to 3 gb.

maybe you should add a mac into your budget. if the camera shoots .mov as raw, you'd be in heaven.

 

[Coldkilla]

it seems all you think about is what to spend money on and that you need to spend money or you can't do something.
to me it sounds like you are going to spend all this money and not be anywhere further then you are now and just have a closet full of stuff that isn't helping you to make a film or get into the hobby.

1. I do have a script in hand. Though it doesn't mean I absolutely have to use it.
2. Your assumption that my attitude is "I want, I want"... You fail to get the entire point of this thread.
3. You mock me by stating "I know many people who have basic audio, and light setups and they do fine", but when I inquire about its cost and application (because I have none) you assume I'm being self centered and cocky in that I somehow want "the best". When in fact I'll most likely be building things out of pvc pipes, washers, weights, bolts...etc., thats been discussed here.
4. The entire point of me coming here was to get suggestions from those versed in photography on pieces of equipment I could purchase (on a budget), this includes makeshift lighting, DIY boompoles, and "poor mans steadicam". So I have no idea why you think I want to spend a fortune on something I may or may not use.

--I never said I wanted a ton of audio equipment.
--I never said I wanted a ton of lighting equipment.
--I never said I couldn't keep my actors in line.
--I never said that everything was black and white, you seem to completely forget that I have a budget set aside for film equipment and its a sin for me to want to spend my set-aside money for something I want.
--I also have no idea why you think I'm not going to put any effort into my projects.
--I have no idea why I would put a mac into my remaining $1300 budget when I already have a fast PC completely capable of doing the tasks required.

Yes film is expensive, as I've already noted. I have a budget set aside ($1300), and ask for opinion(s) on how to best utilize this money. If I have to throw away my script because I decide not to purchase audio equipment, but instead purchase a semi-professional lighting system so be it. If that goes for audio or anything else... so be it. I'd rather have a higher quality film in 1 particular genre than 10 crap films in 5 different genres. So for me to make a "equipment suggestion" thread, that doesn't mean I'm some lazy, talentless person who intends on putting no effort into his projects.

 

[theblackbox]

1. I do have a script in hand. Though it doesn't mean I absolutely have to use it.
2. Your assumption that my attitude is "I want, I want"... You fail to get the entire point of this thread.
3. You mock me by stating "I know many people who have basic audio, and light setups and they do fine", but when I inquire about its cost and application (because I have none) you assume I'm being self centered and cocky in that I somehow want "the best". When in fact I'll most likely be building things out of pvc pipes, washers, weights, bolts...etc., thats been discussed here.
4. The entire point of me coming here was to get suggestions from those versed in photography on pieces of equipment I could purchase (on a budget), this includes makeshift lighting, DIY boompoles, and "poor mans steadicam". So I have no idea why you think I want to spend a fortune on something I may or may not use.

--I never said I wanted a ton of audio equipment.
--I never said I wanted a ton of lighting equipment.
--I never said I couldn't keep my actors in line.
--I never said that everything was black and white, you seem to completely forget that I have a budget set aside for film equipment and its a sin for me to want to spend my set-aside money for something I want.
--I also have no idea why you think I'm not going to put any effort into my projects.
--I have no idea why I would put a mac into my remaining $1300 budget when I already have a fast PC completely capable of doing the tasks required.

Yes film is expensive, as I've already noted. I have a budget set aside ($1300), and ask for opinion(s) on how to best utilize this money. If I have to throw away my script because I decide not to purchase audio equipment, but instead purchase a semi-professional lighting system so be it. If that goes for audio or anything else... so be it. I'd rather have a higher quality film in 1 particular genre than 10 crap films in 5 different genres. So for me to make a "equipment suggestion" thread, that doesn't mean I'm some lazy, talentless person who intends on putting no effort into his projects.

i think you assume too much. you missed the point and you jumped to some weird conclusions and are overly defensive when getting a constructive assessment.

Theres all these factors that have yet to come into play: If I don't spend $ on audio it has to be a silent film. If I don't spend $ on lighting it has to be an outside film.

If I have to throw away my script because I decide not to purchase audio equipment, but instead purchase a semi-professional lighting system so be it.

if those aren't black or white, i don't know what is.

and mock you? please. you aren't the center of the universe. i was merely giving you an idea that there are people out there doing much more with much less. maybe you should try it.
if you don't want to hear that, fine.

good luck in film school. if you're attitude doesn't change, you won't make it. just wait until you get your first project peer reviews and criticism...

i've seen too many people go gung ho into video production and film and watched as they blew apart after they didn't win their first film contest, 10th, or 100th.
if you see what i say as rubbish or mocking you or assuming anything, it's not. it's fact. cold hard fact. a lot of people go into video with high aspirations and then when they start editing, start production, they realize it's too time consuming and the public isn't as receptive as they'd imagine it'd be because they were use to friends and family telling them how wonderful their videos were. they realize that hobby editing on a 30 second short is nothing like editing a 15 minute plus project.

i said something and i'll say it again, you should let equipment direct you, you should direct the equipment you have. most projects directed by equipment end up having poor value when it comes to story and content. why? because people throw away what they want to do and compromise based on what they think they need or can do.

even you said you don't know much about the camera. you really should spend time and learn the camera before you commit yourself to buying any other equipment.



oh, and it's video. you're not doing film. there is a difference.

 

[theblackbox]

I have a budget set aside for film equipment and its a sin for me to want to spend my set-aside money for something I want.

i never told you not to spend your money or how, thats all you. you do what you want. you wanted opinion on what you should buy. just because my opinion doesn't follow what you want doesn't make it a "sin".

if you do make it in film and video, you'll learn budgets aren't about spending what you have, it's about not spending it if you don't have too.

 

[Coldkilla]

Alright Black we get your point. Now please, if you have nothing in terms of equipment to suggest (as to the point of the thread, and only reason I'm here), please find another thread to post in. Thanks

 

[theblackbox]

you obviously missed my suggestions and i told you what was wrong with your stuttering issue.

but cool.

good luck with your video aspirations.

it's always fun to spend money. have at it. but when you've made this 1 high quality film in genre and it doesn't go over as well as you thought, even though you had all the equipment that was recommended to you, remember what i said.

equipment may help you make a movie but it doesn't make the movie unless you make a career of wedding videos and funerals....

cheers

 

[Kaido]

it's always fun to spend money. have at it. but when you've made this 1 high quality film in genre and it doesn't go over as well as you thought, even though you had all the equipment that was recommended to you, remember what i said.

As a first-time camera owner, I don't think he's out to make the next Spielberg movie - I think he's just having fun and is in the process of learning, so let's get this thread back on track and keep things a little more light-hearted

Check out this awesome DIY crane on Lifehacker:

http://lifehacker.com/5498177/build-your-own-camera-crane-for-super-steady-video

fwiw I picked up a portable DVD player with composite input recently for $85 on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Coby-TFDVD7051...dp/B0014KROZO/

The picture quality is actually pretty crappy, but it's bigger than the dinky 3" screen on my camera and has a battery for "wireless" operation, so if you ever decide to build or buy a crane arm, that might be something to look at. I haven't done a crane yet because I don't think I'd use it that much, but I really like how the shots come out on it (very film-ish), so it's on my radar for the future. I've also been looking at the CobraCrane for an inexpensive pre-built solution:

http://www.cobracrane.com/

They make 3 basic models:

1. CobraCrane Backpacker ($350, 5' length, breaks down to 42" to carry around)
2. CobraCrane I ($289, 5' length; $419 optional 8' extension version; $459 optional 10' version)
3. CobraCrane II (heavier-duty double-bar design, $379 - $559)

One "gotcha" with a crane is that you need a heavy-duty tripod, which are expensive. They sell their own version for $299:

http://www.cobracraneusa.com/CobraCraneUSA-Tripod.html

That's actually one of the cheapest heavy-duty tripods I've seen anywhere. Also, instead of doing a traditional dolly on rails, the DollyTrax is super cool for $500:

http://www.dollytrax.com/

They have a new version coming out this month which is even smaller, so that's pretty cool. They also have one with a pushbar and a seat for $100 more. This is probably next on my list of goodies to snag for my camera kit

 

[gsellis]

If you do decide later that you need a full halogen 3 point lighting kit, check out Rostronics. I have a 1500w focusable halogen kit from them and it was under $500 with stands, softboxes, bags, and barndoors. The Briteks are nice quality. And their current kits are now 600w lights. Nice for heating a room