10 US sailors held by Iran udate:released

[Jhhnn]

The govt in the US changed 7 years ago. Fundamentally, the government in Iran hasn't really changed at all. The Iatoldyah's are still in power and that doesn't seem likely to change any time soon. Much of the same rhetoric still comes out of Iran. Let's not pretend that both sides have changed. Only one really has.

That's not true at all & reflects a very poor understanding of Iranian politics. Here's what Rouhani, their current president, said back in 2013-

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...2da564-213e-11e3-966c-9c4293c47ebe_story.html

His election was due in part to a reduction of hostile rhetoric from our own govt.

As he points out, win-win outcomes are possible & we seem to have achieved that with both sides putting the hardliners out of power.

For our part, any number of Repubs would change that if they could & we both know it.

 

[ivwshane]

Would be more fun if I could post like I used to without getting dinged.

I'll maybe get dinged for even saying that.

Well, the anti PC crowd also happen to be the biggest Bitches on this forum. They love dishing it out but they go running to mom when it's them in the crosshairs. Par for the course for hypocrites.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

That's not true at all & reflects a very poor understanding of Iranian politics. Here's what Rouhani, their current president, said back in 2013-

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...2da564-213e-11e3-966c-9c4293c47ebe_story.html

His election was due in part to a reduction of hostile rhetoric from our own govt.

As he points out, win-win outcomes are possible & we seem to have achieved that with both sides putting the hardliners out of power.

For our part, any number of Repubs would change that if they could & we both know it.

Rouhani has no real power. His platitudes are meaningless. The hardliner Imams are still in power and will remain in that position for quite a while. Have human rights changed significantly in Iran? Aren't they still supplying arms to Hamas? Didn't they recently get bent out of shape because of talks of new sanctions due to their development of medium-range missiles, which is prohibited by UN sanctions; and they want to claim it has something to do with the nuclear treaty?

Please stop pretending that anything significant has changed in Iran, Jhhnn. It really hasn't and Rouhani blowing smoke up our collective asses doesn't convince anyone except possibly you and your rose-colored glasses that were apparently manufactured in Iran.

 

[Jhhnn]

Rouhani has no real power. His platitudes are meaningless. The hardliner Imams are still in power and will remain in that position for quite a while. Have human rights changed significantly in Iran? Aren't they still supplying arms to Hamas? Didn't they recently get bent out of shape because of talks of new sanctions due to their development of medium-range missiles, which is prohibited by UN sanctions; and they want to claim it has something to do with the nuclear treaty?

Please stop pretending that anything significant has changed in Iran, Jhhnn. It really hasn't and Rouhani blowing smoke up our collective asses doesn't convince anyone except possibly you and your rose-colored glasses that were apparently manufactured in Iran.

Nice use of Brandolini's law as obfuscation. You're just flinging all the shit you can come up with hoping some of it will stick.

The proof is in the pudding. We have an agreement & every indication that Iran is abiding by it. The straight forward & reasonable resolution of this incident is also indicative of change on both sides.

It's a start. As what you offer illustrates so clearly, hardliner propagandists on both sides won't give up their boogeyman portrayals of the other side easily at all. They're way too useful for domestic political purposes.

If anything, their hardline believers have greater justification than our own. Our hostility has been continuous. We sweet talked & strongarmed other nations into joining us in economic sanctions long ago. We invaded two of their neighboring countries & have meddled in their affairs countless times, I'm sure. We have that power. They don't, not by the wildest stretch of the imagination. Even with the enormous asymmetry of power they've persevered to make their own way. We made sure that they had to take a hard line to do it, and they have.

Whether we like it or not, their govt enjoys popular support. It has greater legitimacy than many others we count as friends. It was high time we recognized that & dealt with it constructively.

For their part it seems that Iran is also taking a constructive stance, as well. Why wouldn't they? They parlayed their nuclear program into major economic & diplomatic concessions from the West, forced us to abandon our failed regime change policy.

I figure that's good for everybody other than those who use fear & hatred to advance their agendas.

 

[DrPizza]

Still a big question of what they were doing in Iranian waters in the first place. The "mechanical problems" doesn't work - there are two boats, and in case of problems with one, the other is to tow it. There's reserve fuel. And, upon being released by Iran, they sailed off - again, bringing doubt to the mechanical problems. Were those on board really, really inept? Some sort of spy mission that failed? Iran screwing around with some way of blocking GPS signals, resulting in the sailors getting lost?

good job would be not having sailors captured in the first place.

Occasionally, I read a post that's so stupid that I think, "no one could actually be that stupid, they must be trolling. Michal's is one of those posts.

 

[positivedoppler]

Still a big question of what they were doing in Iranian waters in the first place. The "mechanical problems" doesn't work - there are two boats, and in case of problems with one, the other is to tow it. There's reserve fuel. And, upon being released by Iran, they sailed off - again, bringing doubt to the mechanical problems. Were those on board really, really inept? Some sort of spy mission that failed? Iran screwing around with some way of blocking GPS signals, resulting in the sailors getting lost?



Occasionally, I read a post that's so stupid that I think, "no one could actually be that stupid, they must be trolling. Michal's is one of those posts.

it's possible Iran did it. Thinking about the whole picture, Iran sure had a lot to gain from all this. They're surrounded by Sunni who wouldn't mind wiping them off the face of the earth. People view the U.S as Saudi's lap dog. What would happen if Iran and Saudi Arabia went to war? Who would we back?

This entire incident made Iran look big and generous towards us. Positive PR for them follow by the nuclear deal to end sanctions.

 

[ivwshane]

Still a big question of what they were doing in Iranian waters in the first place. The "mechanical problems" doesn't work - there are two boats, and in case of problems with one, the other is to tow it. There's reserve fuel. And, upon being released by Iran, they sailed off - again, bringing doubt to the mechanical problems. Were those on board really, really inept? Some sort of spy mission that failed? Iran screwing around with some way of blocking GPS signals, resulting in the sailors getting lost?



Occasionally, I read a post that's so stupid that I think, "no one could actually be that stupid, they must be trolling. Michal's is one of those posts.

I've heard they were trying to take a short cut but then experienced problems.

 

[Jhhnn]

Still a big question of what they were doing in Iranian waters in the first place. The "mechanical problems" doesn't work - there are two boats, and in case of problems with one, the other is to tow it. There's reserve fuel. And, upon being released by Iran, they sailed off - again, bringing doubt to the mechanical problems. Were those on board really, really inept? Some sort of spy mission that failed? Iran screwing around with some way of blocking GPS signals, resulting in the sailors getting lost?



Occasionally, I read a post that's so stupid that I think, "no one could actually be that stupid, they must be trolling. Michal's is one of those posts.

it's possible Iran did it. Thinking about the whole picture, Iran sure had a lot to gain from all this. They're surrounded by Sunni who wouldn't mind wiping them off the face of the earth. People view the U.S as Saudi's lap dog. What would happen if Iran and Saudi Arabia went to war? Who would we back?

This entire incident made Iran look big and generous towards us. Positive PR for them follow by the nuclear deal to end sanctions.

Why does it have to be something other than an admitted nautical screw-up with a happy ending?

The US as the Saudi's lapdog? If anything, the opposite is true.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Nice use of Brandolini's law as obfuscation. You're just flinging all the shit you can come up with hoping some of it will stick.

The proof is in the pudding. We have an agreement & every indication that Iran is abiding by it. The straight forward & reasonable resolution of this incident is also indicative of change on both sides.

It's a start. As what you offer illustrates so clearly, hardliner propagandists on both sides won't give up their boogeyman portrayals of the other side easily at all. They're way too useful for domestic political purposes.

If anything, their hardline believers have greater justification than our own. Our hostility has been continuous. We sweet talked & strongarmed other nations into joining us in economic sanctions long ago. We invaded two of their neighboring countries & have meddled in their affairs countless times, I'm sure. We have that power. They don't, not by the wildest stretch of the imagination. Even with the enormous asymmetry of power they've persevered to make their own way. We made sure that they had to take a hard line to do it, and they have.

Whether we like it or not, their govt enjoys popular support. It has greater legitimacy than many others we count as friends. It was high time we recognized that & dealt with it constructively.

For their part it seems that Iran is also taking a constructive stance, as well. Why wouldn't they? They parlayed their nuclear program into major economic & diplomatic concessions from the West, forced us to abandon our failed regime change policy.

I figure that's good for everybody other than those who use fear & hatred to advance their agendas.

Obfuscation? lol. Notice how you completely brush aside the very valid points I brought up about Iran's current actions with just a wave of your hand?

Look, Jhhnn. Why don't you just skip all the bloviating and simply reply "Fuck you, Iran can do no wrong in my eyes." That would be far, far more succinct and accurate than the BS you spewed above because all of your replies eventually boil down to that simple sentence.

 

[DrPizza]

Positive PR for them follow by the nuclear deal to end sanctions.

Positive PR all around. Diplomacy works for Obama. Iran gets the videos of our soldiers with their hands on their heads - to appease the hardliners in Iran who were against the nuclear deal. Iran gets to look better internationally.

 

[Bowfinger]

Obfuscation? lol. Notice how you completely brush aside the very valid points I brought up about Iran's current actions with just a wave of your hand?

Look, Jhhnn. Why don't you just skip all the bloviating and simply reply "Fuck you, Iran can do no wrong in my eyes." That would be far, far more succinct and accurate than the BS you spewed above because all of your replies eventually boil down to that simple sentence.

It seems to me you're projecting. It is you for whom Iran can do no right.

 

[Jhhnn]

Obfuscation? lol. Notice how you completely brush aside the very valid points I brought up about Iran's current actions with just a wave of your hand?

Look, Jhhnn. Why don't you just skip all the bloviating and simply reply "Fuck you, Iran can do no wrong in my eyes." That would be far, far more succinct and accurate than the BS you spewed above because all of your replies eventually boil down to that simple sentence.

Your "very valid points" are just the usual dishonest talking points.

We have friendly relations with countries having much worse records on human rights than Iran, like our good friends in KSA.

What right does the security council have to deny Iran rocket development if they have no nuclear weapons to go with them?

Hezbollah? Hamas? Houthi? Assad? Immaterial in the context of the agreement.

Following your line of pseudo-reasoning, we never would have had the SALT treaties or trade with China because those nations are less than perfect in our eyes.

When you have to put words in my mouth to form an argument you've already lost it. I'm no fan of the Iranian regime but the Iranian people apparently are. They made enormous sacrifices to repel the Iraqis & have rallied behind their govt whenever it was threatened. They're highly patriotic. Their hardliners gain no traction when the Great Satan quits screaming in their faces so if we want them to change & evolve into a more democratic society our best course of action is the one we took with the Soviets & the Chinese, a course of action that has been proven to work. Decades of puffed up hostility obviously haven't worked any better on Iran than they have on Cuba.

As is often the case, Repubs are living in the past, crying over lost war mongering opportunities. It's too late for that POV to prevail. Even if they regain the White House & repudiate the agreement nobody else will. The EU & the rest of the 5+1 sure as Hell won't, effectively diminishing our influence in the world.

The fact that they'd even suggest it tells us that their posturing is for domestic political purposes. They thrive on fear which is an irrational state of mind, one they induce to cloud the judgment of the electorate.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Your "very valid points" are just the usual dishonest talking points.

Try to keep up with your own comments Jhhnn. You were the one that claimed I had a poor understanding of Iranian politics so I responded with a bit of knowledge of Iranian politics across the region, all of which are absolutely true. I can name more examples in that very same vein as well, if you wish.

The remainder of your reply is your typical apologist response for Iran's behavior.

btw, I laud Obama for trying to mend ties with Iran and completely disagree with the GOP's stance. However, the current Iranian government are a bunch of venomous snakes and don't deserve to be trusted one bit. Hopefully Obama and his predecessors take Teddy's advice to walk softly and carry a big stick when it comes to Iran.

 

[ivwshane]

Try to keep up with your own comments Jhhnn. You were the one that claimed I had a poor understanding of Iranian politics so I responded with a bit of knowledge of Iranian politics across the region, all of which are absolutely true. I can name more examples in that very same vein as well, if you wish.

The remainder of your reply is your typical apologist response for Iran's behavior.

btw, I laud Obama for trying to mend ties with Iran and completely disagree with the GOP's stance. However, the current Iranian government are a bunch of venomous snakes and don't deserve to be trusted one bit. Hopefully Obama and his predecessors take Teddy's advice to walk softly and carry a big stick when it comes to Iran.

You don't trust the one administration that has come to the table to stop their nuclear program and is allowing the world to inspect them? What would be their end game?
What has Iran done that we either haven't already done something similar or that we wouldn't do in their position?

 

[DrDoug]

Rumor is that the House Republicans are looking at a "Return & Replace" bill that will return the released U.S. prisoners to Iran and replace the agreement that Obama negotiated for the U.S. with a plan of their own that drops lots of bombs on Iran.

:biggrin:

 

[Zorkorist]

Sure sounds like a tit for tat thing. Obama gives them a pass, and they release prisoners.

-John

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

You don't trust the one administration that has come to the table to stop their nuclear program and is allowing the world to inspect them? What would be their end game?
What has Iran done that we either haven't already done something similar or that we wouldn't do in their position?

Let me clarify. By "current administration" I mean the one that has been in place since the late 70s. When Iranians finally dump the mullahs and create a true democratic government instead of a bunch of puppets, then we might begin to negotiate with them with some actual trust.

Let me put it this way. If every President elected in the US was completely controlled by the same hard-core, right-wing Christian religious nuts over the decades would you trust them? That's a rhetorical question and I already know the answer. Of course you wouldn't. So why the fuck would you trust any major public figure "elected" in Iran? If you do you simply aren't being honest with yourself. Or at the very least you aren't being consistent.

 

[ivwshane]

Let me clarify. By "current administration" I mean the one that has been in place since the late 70s. When Iranians finally dump the mullahs and create a true democratic government instead of a bunch of puppets, then we might begin to negotiate with them with some actual trust.

Let me put it this way. If every President elected in the US was completely controlled by the same hard-core, right-wing Christian religious nuts over the decades would you trust them? That's a rhetorical question and I already know the answer. Of course you wouldn't. So why the fuck would you trust any major public figure "elected" in Iran? If you do you simply aren't being honest with yourself. Or at the very least you aren't being consistent.

So your solution is to be a counter hardliner? When the day comes for Iranians to choose full demacracy or what they have now, what do you think they will want to do? Go to the arms of those who wish to continue the tough talk about the US who is also talking tough or go to the arms of demacracy in hopes that their move will result in the US backing off of its tough talk?

I'm sorry but no. If you want Iranians to embrace true democracy you have to have open arms so that the hardline rhetoric looks unappealing, irrational, and unwarranted. You can see exactly that playing out here in the US with our own hardliners looking like idiots and Bitches as their fear mongering looks unwarranted and irrational. The public has seen how the right has gotten it wrong and I'm betting the rights tough talk will not be embraced.

Your fear may be well placed but your solution is foolish and a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Meghan54]

When Iranians finally dump the mullahs and create a true democratic government instead of a bunch of puppets, then we might begin to negotiate with them with some actual trust.

Why would that make any difference? The last time Iran had what would be seen as a democratically elected government, we helped England overthrow it and installed a sock puppet.

And then we wonder why Iran distrusts us.......

 

[brycejones]

Why would that make any difference? The last time Iran had what would be seen as a democratically elected government, we helped England overthrow it and installed a sock puppet.

And then we wonder why Iran distrusts us.......

But they were sucking up to the commies. We had to install a repressive regime because commies.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

So your solution is to be a counter hardliner? When the day comes for Iranians to choose full demacracy or what they have now, what do you think they will want to do? Go to the arms of those who wish to continue the tough talk about the US who is also talking tough or go to the arms of demacracy in hopes that their move will result in the US backing off of its tough talk?

I'm sorry but no. If you want Iranians to embrace true democracy you have to have open arms so that the hardline rhetoric looks unappealing, irrational, and unwarranted. You can see exactly that playing out here in the US with our own hardliners looking like idiots and Bitches as their fear mongering looks unwarranted and irrational. The public has seen how the right has gotten it wrong and I'm betting the rights tough talk will not be embraced.

Your fear may be well placed but your solution is foolish and a self fulfilling prophecy.

You guys are so full of your own talking points in regard to what you believe the right thinks about Iran that you can't even begin to comprehend when someone is saying something different.

First of all, I am not a righty. In fact, I am far from it. There are one or two things I somewhat agree upon with the right. For the rest I am diametrically opposed.

Second of all, I am not speaking of fear. Stop tossing that word around incessantly and trying to claim that anyone who doesn't embrace Iran with open arms is fearmongering. That's a "You're either with us or against us." attitude. It's moronic and rhetorical.

What I am talking about is trust. I have no fear of Iran (and when I say Iran I mean their government). I simply don't trust them. We deal with Iran and do so without the rhetoric. But we don't do it with open arms, we do it at arms length. Keep in mind the US is not the one in hot water here, Iran is. The US has nothing to prove, or lose. Iran does.

 

[ivwshane]

You guys are so full of your own talking points in regard to what you believe the right thinks about Iran that you can't even begin to comprehend when someone is saying something different.

First of all, I am not a righty. In fact, I am far from it. There are one or two things I somewhat agree upon with the right. For the rest I am diametrically opposed.

Second of all, I am not speaking of fear. Stop tossing that word around incessantly and trying to claim that anyone who doesn't embrace Iran with open arms is fearmongering. That's a "You're either with us or against us." attitude. It's moronic and rhetorical.

What I am talking about is trust. I have no fear of Iran (and when I say Iran I mean their government). I simply don't trust them. We deal with Iran and do so without the rhetoric. But we don't do it with open arms, we do it at arms length. Keep in mind the US is not the one in hot water here, Iran is. The US has nothing to prove, or lose. Iran does.

Your reading comprehension really sucks.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Why would that make any difference? The last time Iran had what would be seen as a democratically elected government, we helped England overthrow it and installed a sock puppet.

And then we wonder why Iran distrusts us.......

The last time Iran had a somewhat Democratic government (which was highly questionable to call it that considering what Mossadegh did with his issuance of emergency powers) the international political atmosphere was a different animal. Yes, at the time the US meddled with Iran's government. Today Iran meddles with the governments of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Palestine. Let's stop pretending that Iran is innocent or any kind of victim here.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Your reading comprehension really sucks.

Not at all. It's your poor assumptions of what you thought I was advocating that suck, as I clearly pointed out.

 

[ivwshane]

Not at all. It's your poor assumptions of what you thought I was advocating that suck, as I clearly pointed out.

Yeah, that only proves my point.