10 reasons to raise taxes on the top 1%

[Craig234]

I read a story about a business owner who came up with a brilliant plan to help his employees avoid taxation. Evidently certain gold coins are real bona fide US currency with a face value that is far less than the actual value. The 1 oz. coin might say $5 but the value of the gold itself is far greater. He found some obscure code that allowed him to pay his people with gold coins and tax them at the legal tender rate ($5 coin = $5) and not the actual value. I bet you can't do that anymore.

Nor should you be able to. It's tax fraud. Ya, he 'helped his employee', by stealing from society adding to everyone else's tax burden by not paying his.

 

[Darwin333]

Nor should you be able to. It's tax fraud. Ya, he 'helped his employee', by stealing from society adding to everyone else's tax burden by not paying his.

No, it wasn't fraud, it was perfectly legal as written in the US tax code.

My point was two fold, they tend to fix actual loopholes that are being used in ways they didn't intend them. That means all the "loopholes" people tend to bitch about the rich having aren't really loopholes they are simply benefits that were purposely written into the code. No different than the deductions I get to take.

My other point was how absurdly retarded our current tax code is. Make it vastly simpler and all of these issues go away overnight. The .gov doesn't want to do that because it loses power and they kinda don't like to do that on purpose.


Edit: And what do you mean by "his"? Don't you mean "theirs" as in the workers that got paid who benefited far more from the reduction of tax than he did? If I recall correctly he still paid his real share of the payroll taxes the employer pays for their employees (another retarded part of the code) because he didn't want his business to get WTFPWND by the IRS. The employees otoh, were able to report that they "earned" well under the poverty level when in fact they made a decent middle class wage.

 

[Craig234]

I just had this conversation almost exactly with my communist mother... what you're talking about here is legislating armed robbery. You and people like my mother feel it's not fair that some folks have lots of money... and other folks don't. But that is the way our country is built... it's MEANT to be that way. Everyone has a chance to be top of the heap... but it takes brilliance to get there.

You cannot go and take money from people just because you think it's not fair... that would undermine the stability of our entire society... Our government is not your personal wellbeing insurance company. The government is not your babysitter, but people seem to think they're entitled to wealth and well-being... that whole idea is ridiculous.

Having said that... you absolutely can go and take money from the top 1%... go be innovative... cultivate an idea... work your ass off. Outsmart the 1%. That should really be the battle-cry for you and your ilk.

No, you are confused and ignorant. You appear to think there is nothing but 'communist' or 'plutocracy'. Anything else is communist.

Let's show how bad your argument is by using it the other direction.

'You say you are against the communist system that leads to state tyranny with the privileges for the 'party members' over and over.

You don't deserve those privileges unless you do something for them - just beat others for those treasured party positions and you are fine. That should be your battle-cry.'

Your post is just terribly ignorat about what it takes for a society to have broad prosperity, which doesn't happen either in the communist states we've seen OR in your plutocracy.

You should get a clue by learning about US history, from the time of a no-middle class broad poverty with a few rich late 19th century, thorugh the building of the middle class.

It's filled with all kinds of 'progressive' changes that gave the workers more rights that led to the system being both productive and fairer in how the economic output was split.

Things like the financial sector have always been a two-edged sword that both can play a role in society's prosperity and can devastate society's prosperity depending on regulation.

If they're allowed excesses in doing what they want, it leads to a society where the economic activities mostly benefit them, reduce opportunity and prosperity.

In our economy, finance used to earn about 10-15% of all profits; recently, that reached 40% of all profits going to the finance sector. You think that's just fine, you say.

No, it leads to things like the middle class having its wealth extracted for a few people to take it, and great inequality and increasingly to destroying democracy.

 

[Craig234]

No, it wasn't fraud, it was perfectly legal as written in the US tax code.

My point was two fold, they tend to fix actual loopholes that are being used in ways they didn't intend them. That means all the "loopholes" people tend to bitch about the rich having aren't really loopholes they are simply benefits that were purposely written into the code. No different than the deductions I get to take.

My other point was how absurdly retarded our current tax code is. Make it vastly simpler and all of these issues go away overnight. The .gov doesn't want to do that because it loses power and they kinda don't like to do that on purpose.


Edit: And what do you mean by "his"? Don't you mean "theirs" as in the workers that got paid who benefited far more from the reduction of tax than he did? If I recall correctly he still paid his real share of the payroll taxes the employer pays for their employees (another retarded part of the code) because he didn't want his business to get WTFPWND by the IRS. The employees otoh, were able to report that they "earned" well under the poverty level when in fact they made a decent middle class wage.

I'm saying tax fraud in the spirit of tax fraud occured. Whoever benefitted.

In this case, it's interesting to note many right-wing sites have the story reported as him getting away with it, for example:

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/update/update2007-09-30.htm

Around noon on Monday, September 17th, a Las Vegas federal jury returned its verdict refusing to convict nine defendants of any of the 161 federal tax crimes they had been charged with. The charges included income tax evasion, willful failure to file and conspiracy to evade taxes.

The four-month trial centered around the family businesses of Robert Kahre who paid numerous workers for their labor with circulating gold and silver U.S. coins, and did not report the wages. The payments took place over several years, allegedly totaling at least $114 million dollars.

But check further, I didn't find any of the right-wing sites saying what happened:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/nov/17/businessman-robert-kahre-sentenced-tax-fraud-schem/

Robert Kahre, owner of six construction-related businesses in Las Vegas, was sentenced to more than 15 years in prison today.

Kahre paid employees more than $100 million in cash wages as part of an elaborate scheme to defraud the IRS, said U.S. Attorney Daniel G. Bogden of Nevada.

His sister, Lori Kahre, was sentenced to six years in prison for her role in the conspiracy. Two others, including Kahre's girlfriend and his business consultant, are expected to be sentenced Wednesday, Bogden said.

 

[nobodyknows]

And Im not disagreeing with you.

I would certainly hope that you would know better then to disagree with me by now!!

 

[Jhhnn]

One of the great things about the justice system is that if you steal tens of millions, even from the taxpayers, you'll get 15 years max at the federal boyscout ranch. Sell crack on the corner, and you'll probably get 20 years...

Spiffy, no?

 

[bozack]

just got word my auto insurance was going up at least $20/month today, rep said that rising healthcare costs associated with insurance was to blame, what happened to only taxing the top 1%?

 

[nonlnear]

One of the great things about the justice system is that if you steal tens of millions, even from the taxpayers, you'll get 15 years max at the federal boyscout ranch. Sell crack on the corner, and you'll probably get 20 years...

Spiffy, no?

But crack is whack. Not to mention if the public got used to truly proportional justice for criminals who destroy entire segments of an economy on a whim, that wouldn't bode so well for the life expectancy of a Congressman, now would it?...

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

What a load of socialist bullshit. This is America, we don't think like that or want any of this crap. Jealousy is such an evil emotion.

Yep. And that's why your country is turning into a shithole.

Once conservatives have finished destroying the middle class you'll sing a different tune.

 

[hal2kilo]

No, it wasn't fraud, it was perfectly legal as written in the US tax code.

My point was two fold, they tend to fix actual loopholes that are being used in ways they didn't intend them. That means all the "loopholes" people tend to bitch about the rich having aren't really loopholes they are simply benefits that were purposely written into the code. No different than the deductions I get to take.

My other point was how absurdly retarded our current tax code is. Make it vastly simpler and all of these issues go away overnight. The .gov doesn't want to do that because it loses power and they kinda don't like to do that on purpose.


Edit: And what do you mean by "his"? Don't you mean "theirs" as in the workers that got paid who benefited far more from the reduction of tax than he did? If I recall correctly he still paid his real share of the payroll taxes the employer pays for their employees (another retarded part of the code) because he didn't want his business to get WTFPWND by the IRS. The employees otoh, were able to report that they "earned" well under the poverty level when in fact they made a decent middle class wage.

Apparently a lot of senators and congressman collect coins. Why else would there be this ridiculous loophole. I used to work with a guy that was a coin grader back in the 80's and he made so much money that he quit his job and went into it full time. He freely admitted that alot of the money involved in the business was unreported drug money.

 

[Jhhnn]

just got word my auto insurance was going up at least $20/month today, rep said that rising healthcare costs associated with insurance was to blame, what happened to only taxing the top 1%?

Your insurance rep will tell you anything he thinks you'll believe. They're raising your rates because they want to, because they can, because you and the other people they insure don't mean squat except as a source of income.

Any questions?

 

[Engineer]

Your insurance rep will tell you anything he thinks you'll believe. They're raising your rates because they want to, because they can, because you and the other people they insure don't mean squat except as a source of income.

Any questions?

Can't be those reasons that you list. Health insurance rates have never went up before this year. Everyone knows this. (not saying that they will or will not go up more this year. My rate actually fell $1.xx per paycheck for same coverage).

 

[JockoJohnson]

Highest corporate tax RATE but 2nd lowest BURDEN (after deductions) of any industrialized country in the world (per CNBC).

Edit: Oops, I already posted this in the thread. Sorry!

Sorry, Engineer. Missed that one. Perfectly good point. Makes me wonder then why these damn corporations insist on shipping jobs overseas. I am sure labor is still cheaper and they must figure that Americans are too stupid to actually boycott their products for shipping so many jobs overseas.

Don't be telling the truth. It's not like their opinions will change once they've seen it, because it's contrary to their most cherished beliefs. It's pavlovian, a conditioned avoidance/ denial response to stimulus.

Righties have perfectly good brains, but the ideas within prevent actual analysis of factual material. Their cognitive filters are so strong that contrary information simply can't penetrate.

Jhhnn, go fuck yourself. Don't lump me in with any of the whackos on either side.

 

[Doboji]

No, you are confused and ignorant. You appear to think there is nothing but 'communist' or 'plutocracy'. Anything else is communist.

Let's show how bad your argument is by using it the other direction.

'You say you are against the communist system that leads to state tyranny with the privileges for the 'party members' over and over.

You don't deserve those privileges unless you do something for them - just beat others for those treasured party positions and you are fine. That should be your battle-cry.'

Your post is just terribly ignorat about what it takes for a society to have broad prosperity, which doesn't happen either in the communist states we've seen OR in your plutocracy.

You should get a clue by learning about US history, from the time of a no-middle class broad poverty with a few rich late 19th century, thorugh the building of the middle class.

It's filled with all kinds of 'progressive' changes that gave the workers more rights that led to the system being both productive and fairer in how the economic output was split.

Things like the financial sector have always been a two-edged sword that both can play a role in society's prosperity and can devastate society's prosperity depending on regulation.

If they're allowed excesses in doing what they want, it leads to a society where the economic activities mostly benefit them, reduce opportunity and prosperity.

In our economy, finance used to earn about 10-15% of all profits; recently, that reached 40% of all profits going to the finance sector. You think that's just fine, you say.

No, it leads to things like the middle class having its wealth extracted for a few people to take it, and great inequality and increasingly to destroying democracy.

I love the PASSION in your response... I made you so MAD!

See the thing is I don't disagree that excessively uneven wealth distribution is a problem... however where you and I disagree is HOW to correct the problem.

I don't believe you simply TAKE the money from the "rich" and GIVE it to the "poor". That sets a nasty little precedent... that says what you EARN in life is only yours until someone else decides they're ENTITLED to it.

You solve the problem by ripping into the disgusting waste spending our government does on a daily basis... you do it by being much much more efficient with how you spend the dollars you collect. You do it by ripping apart, and rebuilding the disgrace of an education system we have today. You teach people to be responsible for themselves, and you give them the basic tools they need to make the right decisions in life, and sense of ownership of those decisions.

I agree that our American way of financing everything is stupid... we shouldn't be handing out credit like popcorn... but consistently everytime our country hits credit crises... it's always about the lendor, and never about the lendee. God forbid people should be responsible for the debts they owe... it's like visiting a prostitute and then complaining about how dirty prostitutes are. Stop pointing fingers and start taking responsibility

I understand that some portion of our population will always need collective assistance... but that portion is absolutely out of control right now... and I reject the notion that these people are broke because they were "robbed" by the 1%... they're broke because they made stupid decisions. Sorry I know that stings and seems insensitive... but it's just the truth.

 

[PeshakJang]

You don't understand business much. Price is based on demand, not on people saying 'I'll charge less because I lay lower taxes, but if they raise my taxes up the prices go'.

Craig, you don't know the first shit about business in the real world. Rising taxes = rising costs = reduced margins. If my margins are reduced, I'm going to do what I can to get them back. That could mean raising prices, or reducing costs. Easiest way to reduce costs? Fire people. Is it better for society when all these businesses are forced to fire people to maintain their profit margins? Apparently so.

Yes, the doctor would simple make only $30,000 in your scenario. But so would other doctors and other people, leaving him not much worse off in terms of relative status.

He could be better off, with the increase taxes invested in the society, the debt reduced, etc. The right screams like the wicked witch with water thrown on her when this is said.

Jesus H Titty Fucking Christ you're ignorant. No business owner is going to say, "I am making a lot less money now than I was last year, but that's ok because so is that guy across the street. Oh, and it's better for society too." Stop lecturing us on how your fantasy world is run as if it had any semblance of reality.

I don't want to hear another thing out of your mouth about "How business works" until you have even a faint grasp on it yourself.

 

[PeshakJang]

Things like the financial sector have always been a two-edged sword that both can play a role in society's prosperity and can devastate society's prosperity depending on regulation.

If they're allowed excesses in doing what they want, it leads to a society where the economic activities mostly benefit them, reduce opportunity and prosperity.

In our economy, finance used to earn about 10-15% of all profits; recently, that reached 40% of all profits going to the finance sector. You think that's just fine, you say.

No, it leads to things like the middle class having its wealth extracted for a few people to take it, and great inequality and increasingly to destroying democracy.

So why do you constantly defend George Soros, who made his vast fortune almost exclusively through the financial markets, basically devastating entire markets in the process?

Don't answer that, because you can't answer with a shred of honesty.

 

[HumblePie]

I love the PASSION in your response... I made you so MAD!

See the thing is I don't disagree that excessively uneven wealth distribution is a problem... however where you and I disagree is HOW to correct the problem.

I don't believe you simply TAKE the money from the "rich" and GIVE it to the "poor". That sets a nasty little precedent... that says what you EARN in life is only yours until someone else decides they're ENTITLED to it.

You solve the problem by ripping into the disgusting waste spending our government does on a daily basis... you do it by being much much more efficient with how you spend the dollars you collect. You do it by ripping apart, and rebuilding the disgrace of an education system we have today. You teach people to be responsible for themselves, and you give them the basic tools they need to make the right decisions in life, and sense of ownership of those decisions.

I agree that our American way of financing everything is stupid... we shouldn't be handing out credit like popcorn... but consistently everytime our country hits credit crises... it's always about the lendor, and never about the lendee. God forbid people should be responsible for the debts they owe... it's like visiting a prostitute and then complaining about how dirty prostitutes are. Stop pointing fingers and start taking responsibility

I understand that some portion of our population will always need collective assistance... but that portion is absolutely out of control right now... and I reject the notion that these people are broke because they were "robbed" by the 1%... they're broke because they made stupid decisions. Sorry I know that stings and seems insensitive... but it's just the truth.

Actually you are both right and both wrong. Both of you see the symptoms of the same problem through rose colored lenses of what you want to see. Both of you make the same knee jerk rationalization of what the proper fix is.

What needs to be done is a careful and regulated approach both ways in small increments for something.

Personally, I don't know how to fix the mess we are in and seeming to sink deeper in. I really do not envy any political person doing the job out because they want to serve and help. No one person with the right intentions and solution can solve this problem with so much pressure from those that are opposed to fixed out of misguided ideology at best or plain corruptness at worst.

 

[Jhhnn]

Jhhnn, go fuck yourself. Don't lump me in with any of the whackos on either side.

Fair enough. We'll see how well that information sticks with you in the future. The usual ravers will ignore it completely, and post the same disinformation over, and over, and over again... not because it's true, but because it's what they need to believe to hold the positions they do. The foundations of their ideology are embedded firmly in lies.