10 reasons to raise taxes on the top 1%

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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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Wow, then unlike the rest of us peons they could actually afford to pay more without giving up their health care or cutting into what they put away for retirement. Perhaps they should just just pay all of it. I mean they are the ones benifiting the most from our system, aren't they? They might have to downsize their jets and yachts and sell a few of their houses but hey, times are tough all over.

LOL, I always get a chuckle out of these kind of arguments and I really try but I just can't find any sympathy for people who have million dollar art collections, $10,000 wrist watches, etc., etc.

And Im not disagreeing with you.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Well, kinda. There's no financial risk, unless you count getting screwed out of your last paycheck when the ownership flips the operation over, leaves the workers and the creditors in the lurch. Or when all that stock you bought as part of the "voluntary" profit sharing plan turns to shit.

One of my coworkers was a mechanic for the pre bankruptcy united airlines. years later, he got a cheque for $287 dollars as settlement for over $30K worth of company stock he'd been forced to buy as part of the labor agreement... others have seen their company pensions mismanaged and taken over by the PBGC, which means you just got screwed...

And when you have to pay rent & utilities or a mortgage, risks associated with employment continuation are greater than just money...

Factory work is also more dangerous, in general, than office work, and many of the health and longevity risks are realized only later, as with radium workers of 100 years ago, asbestos and VOC's more recently... PCB's, vinyl chloride, the list goes on from there... New materials of unknown safety are constantly introduced into industrial processes...

At one point some years ago, certain rightwing voices justified pension funding requirement reductions as entirely reasonable because factory workers wouldn't live as long, so calculations could be less stringent... but the whole thing was perfectly safe, obviously...

And just think...we REALLY need to get this kind of work back to the USA!
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
It's actually funny when companies don't live up to their promises of a pension and royally screw over their loyal workers.. You rarely hear conservatives bemoan that. But when liberals want to raise taxes on the elite of the elite (whose incomes are astronomically going up every year), you hear the rallying cry of asshole conservatives everywhere.

In those cases, those people who are cheated out of their pension should be rewarded all of the company's stock, and their current and former executives should go to jail.

This country is beyond fucked. Conservatives are right: It's class warfare, but they're completely wrong about who's winning. The uber rich are anally violating the middle class, poor, and i would even argue a large section of the upper middle class.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
And just think...we REALLY need to get this kind of work back to the USA!

I think, blackangst1, that we should be able to agree that it's better than no work. Unless, of course, you're advocating an expansion of the welfare state as a substitute for employment. Probably not, huh?

If we're to stage an economic recovery, we need to produce something other than bullshit financial products... in a sense, the whole sector has grown to the point of being parasitic on the rest of the economy, such as it is...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
You pay twice buying that foreign shit. Once putting food on Chinese tables for your warez then in taxes to support 2/3 of Americans dependent on government in one form or another.

It's debatable if we'll pay 3x - because as we destroyed the industrial and manufacturing unions, thus leaving the Democrats without a power base and source of funding we have destroyed the Democratic party who are now just as dependent as Republicans on corporate interest groups for campaign funding. What that means is perpetual copyright, more snuffing out small businessman, more police state, more wars of avarice and profit, less workplace rights, less individual rights (especially when it comes to free speech about corporations or govt) etc where corporations, political elite and top 1% merge and guide America instead of people..... Starting to sound like China eh?

As I've always said if we want to "compete" with them we have to become them. Not a place I'd like to live IMO.


Cheap is more expensive.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
You pay twice buying that foreign shit. Once putting food on Chinese tables for your warez then in taxes to support 2/3 of Americans dependent on government in one form or another.

It's debatable if we'll pay 3x - because as we destroyed the industrial and manufacturing unions, thus leaving the Democrats without a power base and source of funding we have destroyed the Democratic party who are now just as dependent as Republicans on corporate interest groups for campaign funding. What that means is perpetual copyright, more snuffing out small businessman, more police state etc.... Starting to sound like China eh?

As I've always said if we want to "compete" with them we have to become them. Not a place I'd like to live IMO.


Cheap is more expensive.

Yes (again).
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
I think, blackangst1, that we should be able to agree that it's better than no work. Unless, of course, you're advocating an expansion of the welfare state as a substitute for employment. Probably not, huh?

If we're to stage an economic recovery, we need to produce something other than bullshit financial products... in a sense, the whole sector has grown to the point of being parasitic on the rest of the economy, such as it is...

edit: nvm wasnt you.

Youre sounding like a conservative here...careful buddy...
 
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Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
You pay twice buying that foreign shit. Once putting food on Chinese tables for your warez then in taxes to support 2/3 of Americans dependent on government in one form or another.

It's debatable if we'll pay 3x - because as we destroyed the industrial and manufacturing unions, thus leaving the Democrats without a power base and source of funding we have destroyed the Democratic party who are now just as dependent as Republicans on corporate interest groups for campaign funding. What that means is perpetual copyright, more snuffing out small businessman, more police state, more wars of avarice and profit, less workplace rights, less individual rights (especially when it comes to free speech about corporations or govt) etc where corporations, political elite and top 1% merge and guide America instead of people..... Starting to sound like China eh?

As I've always said if we want to "compete" with them we have to become them. Not a place I'd like to live IMO.


Cheap is more expensive.

A lot of people don't realize this.

A little xenophobia would go a very long way toward solving the problems with the US economy.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Yes (again).

THX Another thing we are starting to see besides “free trade” not working for the average Americans who saw their jobs disappear, debt racked up and lifestyle take a dive is US corporations who outsourced them are feeling the heat now too and I think will ultimately be destroyed. Rare earth metal boycott by China, Stealing everything they can from street sellers selling pirate DVDs and Levis to corporate espionage....20-30 years out will be interesting.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
A lot of people don't realize this.

A little xenophobia would go a very long way toward solving the problems with the US economy.

xenophobia? Happy to trade with Japan or Germany who reciprocate trade and people live similar. It's race to the bottom I don't think we should be engaged in.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
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ostif.org
xenophobia? Happy to trade with Japan or Germany who reciprocate trade and people live similar. It's race to the bottom I don't think we should be engaged in.

I agree to an extent.

Americans aren't that analytical though, so its an all or nothing thing.

Maybe a "buy fair trade" campaign would work. I was just going for the sledgehammer to the nail approach.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
How about $1 in of manufactured/industrial goods must be equaled by $1 out? I believe this is called fair trade, right?, and it's a lot easier than analyzing people and systems within a country, making subjective/human judgments and all that before deciding trade is okay. Is that what you mean?

Instead what's going on is they are buying assets and debt instruments to return money to us. My dad and his partner sold their lighting company to Chinese for example - what used to be made in Anaheim and employ about 100 people is now made in China. Hundreds of thousands of businesses are like this...you just hear about the big ones like IBM's laptop unit. Then all the personal and govt debt they own. Debt we need to buy their stuff.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Youre sounding like a conservative here...careful buddy...

Not at all. The deregulated free trade global economy was always the darling of Republicans and Conservadems.

Clinton? In his deeds, particularly wrt trade, Clinton was the best Republican president since Eisenhower, even though the Rightwing hated him desperately and psychotically... His record of fiscal responsibility speaks for itself.

OTOH, if America's financial elite insists on not hiring americans, but rather hiring foreigners instead, then they'll need to get used to the idea of paying higher taxes and more income redistribution if they want this country to remain the kind of place where they want to live.

Under a succession of repub admins and congresses they've succeeded in creating the illusion of growth with borrowing, as opposed to real growth. Having borrowed to the hilt to support the real estate boom, middle america is largely tapped out for many years, and the feds' ability to borrow will shortly arrive at that juncture as well. That's why the threatened collapse of banking was and remains extremely dangerous, because america doesn't run on investment as a means to produce, but rather on credit as a means to consume.

The notion that we can support govt w/o raising taxes on somebody is preposterous, and the notion that raising taxes on the top would harm the economy is equally so. An interesting article, here-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../02/AR2010090205017.html?wpisrc=nl_pmpolitics

Follow the "political myth" link for more info about so called "small business" and the hooey surrounding it...

One of his more interesting contentions is that keeping the bush cuts for the middle class and raising the top bracket to $1M would create 85% of the revenue that leaving the top bracket at $250K would accomplish... that really should tell us just how strongly income has been skewed, not to the top 1%, but rather to the top .2% and above... It would raise revenues by an estimated $600B over 10 years- not all we need, but it's a place to start. That means that 2 families in 1000 would pay a higher tax rate on that portion of their income above $1M/yr...

Too bad that's not a deal we can just sign up for, because we'd all be there if we could...
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
How about $1 in of manufactured/industrial goods must be equaled by $1 out? I believe this is called fair trade, right?, and it's a lot easier than analyzing people and systems within a country, making subjective/human judgments and all that before deciding trade is okay. Is that what you mean?

Instead what's going on is they are buying assets and debt instruments to return money to us. My dad and his partner sold their lighting company to Chinese for example - what used to be made in Anaheim and employ about 100 people is now made in China. Hundreds of thousands of businesses are like this...you just hear about the big ones like IBM's laptop unit. Then all the personal and govt debt they own. Debt we need to buy their stuff.
My solution has always been to create a floating figure based on minimum employment costs in the united states. Say $10 an hour after min wage, unemployment insurance, etc...

By "floating figure" i mean a figure that will be calculated periodically as not to get dated.

Take said floating figure and calculate it in nations we trade with.

Tariff the imports to match the discrepancy.

Example: Minimum american = $10 hourly, Minimum Chinese = 20 cents hourly

Import tax = 5000%

This forces companies in the US to make the goods or china to treat its people fairly.

It will also bring the manipulation of the Yuan to the forefront, as allowing the Yuan to float completely on the dollar and Euro would raise Chinese wages tremendously.

There would obviously be difficulties that would need to be thought through, such as partial assembly and funneling trade through nations with lower tariffs... but they could be solved.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
My solution has always been to create a floating figure based on minimum employment costs in the united states. Say $10 an hour after min wage, unemployment insurance, etc...

By "floating figure" i mean a figure that will be calculated periodically as not to get dated.

Take said floating figure and calculate it in nations we trade with.

Tariff the imports to match the discrepancy.

Example: Minimum american = $10 hourly, Minimum Chinese = 20 cents hourly

Import tax = 5000%

This forces companies in the US to make the goods or china to treat its people fairly.

It will also bring the manipulation of the Yuan to the forefront, as allowing the Yuan to float completely on the dollar and Euro would raise Chinese wages tremendously.

There would obviously be difficulties that would need to be thought through, such as partial assembly and funneling trade through nations with lower tariffs... but they could be solved.

but american corporations wouldnt like this.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
My solution has always been to create a floating figure based on minimum employment costs in the united states. Say $10 an hour after min wage, unemployment insurance, etc...

By "floating figure" i mean a figure that will be calculated periodically as not to get dated.

Take said floating figure and calculate it in nations we trade with.

Tariff the imports to match the discrepancy.

Example: Minimum american = $10 hourly, Minimum Chinese = 20 cents hourly

Import tax = 5000%

This forces companies in the US to make the goods or china to treat its people fairly.

It will also bring the manipulation of the Yuan to the forefront, as allowing the Yuan to float completely on the dollar and Euro would raise Chinese wages tremendously.

There would obviously be difficulties that would need to be thought through, such as partial assembly and funneling trade through nations with lower tariffs... but they could be solved.
Sounds smart I like it. Also solves issue of categorization or goods and services , you don't care what it is since it's based on a sorta international gini index instead.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
but american corporations wouldnt like this.

LOL of course we're dreamin. Goldren rule (those with gold make the rules) but something must happen. There is no way America can continue on this path of borrowing, income disparity and giving china worthless paper for goods.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
I just had this conversation almost exactly with my communist mother... what you're talking about here is legislating armed robbery. You and people like my mother feel it's not fair that some folks have lots of money... and other folks don't. But that is the way our country is built... it's MEANT to be that way. Everyone has a chance to be top of the heap... but it takes brilliance to get there.

You cannot go and take money from people just because you think it's not fair... that would undermine the stability of our entire society... Our government is not your personal wellbeing insurance company. The government is not your babysitter, but people seem to think they're entitled to wealth and well-being... that whole idea is ridiculous.

Having said that... you absolutely can go and take money from the top 1%... go be innovative... cultivate an idea... work your ass off. Outsmart the 1%. That should really be the battle-cry for you and your ilk.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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I think the solution is to close the loopholes and keep tax rates equal. % = the more you make the more you pay, so that is the most fair way to go it seems. The truly unfair thing is how some people use loopholes to get out of paying their fair share. Stop the loopholes to make it equal for everyone again. How this would be accomplished, not really sure. i don't know anything about the loophole stuff, i just know that it happens.

Closing those "loopholes" and leaving the rates the same would utterly decimate the middle class/poor. Take away all of my deductions (or yours I bet if you are employed) and my spendable income is drastically reduced. My taxes would almost certainly double and possibly triple.

Bad idea.

Oh wait, you mean just the ones the rich use right? The ones you and I use aren't really loopholes because we aren't rich.

You double everyones taxes overnight and half the country would be on the streets protesting. Hell, the shotguns and pitchforks are likely to come out in that event.
All joking aside, the tax code is simply way to large and complicated to do what you ask. What they need to do is set a certain % and be done with it. No deductions, no loopholes, natta, you make X then you pay this % of X. This would require drastic reductions in rates across the board (including those ebul rich bastards) because we currently don't pay anywhere near the actual rates. Make the tax code a few dozen pages long at most and we will never have the problem will be solved.

Before you get to excited, keep in mind that its highly unlikely for that to happen. Our politicians like to use the tax code for social engineering and it works pretty damn well. You don't think they really want to give up that kind of power do you?
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Loophole does not equal deduction. Loophole = way to exploit the tax code that was not anticipated. I highly doubt that the poor/middle classes exploit loopholes (real ones) enough to matter much (but I could be wrong).
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
but american corporations wouldnt like this.

Of course not, the old "if it aint broke don't fix it" line applies with a lot of American corporations. A lot of them must use cheap ass Chinese labor in order to compete but as long as they make a profit they really don't give a flying fuck who makes their shit.

The idea is simply to remove the ability to profit off of cheaper labor. They might not like it at first but as long as its a level playing ground they should be able to make just as much profit using American labor.

The only issue I see is higher cost leading to less demand. People aren't going to buy nearly as many TVs if the price doubles regardless of where they are made. Increased automation will bring those costs down but that requires a lot of capital investment and in my eyes carries a ton of risk. Politics and policy change so often that it is not hard to imagine the rules changing before their investment pays off.

Then we have the entire importing cheap labor issue to deal with. Another one that isn't going to happen in any meaningful way.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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Loophole does not equal deduction. Loophole = way to exploit the tax code that was not anticipated. I highly doubt that the poor/middle classes exploit loopholes (real ones) enough to matter much (but I could be wrong).

From what I have gathered, those "loopholes" are usually put in there for exactly what they are used for. We just call them different things when the rich benefits the most from them. Sometimes there are a few exploits but those are usually closed fairly quickly.

I read a story about a business owner who came up with a brilliant plan to help his employees avoid taxation. Evidently certain gold coins are real bona fide US currency with a face value that is far less than the actual value. The 1 oz. coin might say $5 but the value of the gold itself is far greater. He found some obscure code that allowed him to pay his people with gold coins and tax them at the legal tender rate ($5 coin = $5) and not the actual value. I bet you can't do that anymore.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
You cannot go and take money from people just because you think it's not fair... that would undermine the stability of our entire society...

YOu know what else undermines the stability of our country? This generations wages being lower than their father's wages 30 years ago while wages for the top 1% going to astronomical levels. You keep going down this path and at some point, you will have bloodshed over the unsustainability of destroying American jobs.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
I just had this conversation almost exactly with my communist mother... what you're talking about here is legislating armed robbery. You and people like my mother feel it's not fair that some folks have lots of money... and other folks don't. But that is the way our country is built... it's MEANT to be that way. Everyone has a chance to be top of the heap... but it takes brilliance to get there.

You cannot go and take money from people just because you think it's not fair... that would undermine the stability of our entire society... Our government is not your personal wellbeing insurance company. The government is not your babysitter, but people seem to think they're entitled to wealth and well-being... that whole idea is ridiculous.

Having said that... you absolutely can go and take money from the top 1%... go be innovative... cultivate an idea... work your ass off. Outsmart the 1%. That should really be the battle-cry for you and your ilk.

We go to jail when we try to do stuff that the top .01% <cough>banksters<cough> do to make money. Let me start big rigging, front running, insider trading, accounting fraud, regular fraud, irregular fraud, have the .gov purchase all of my bad business decisions, give me a fuckton of money so that I can buy my competition for pennies on the dollar (and its not even their dollar, fucking brilliant!), bribery, and on and on all with no risk of going to jail and I will make it to the top .1% without a problem.