• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."
  • Community Question: What makes a good motherboard?

1 in 5 Americans is Religiously Unaffiliated

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
You're really all over the place aren't you? I'll try to address your points.

Using your own experience is human but, not terribly insightful to the human condition or religious beliefs.
While indoctrination is nothing new, neither is personal choice.
It is indeed your choice whether to believe or not.
My point was that 'youts' are no longer educated about religion any more than they are about how the world works.
Please prove to me God isn't in the world. :)
I'm a Lutheran who believes God and science aren't mutually exclusive.
You didn't adress anything, none of your arguments make any sense what so ever.

I cannot choose to believe in god any more than you can choose to believe that Thor is the one true god, creator of thunder and lightning, do you understand why you don't believe that? Could you actually make a choice to believe it?

No?

Well there you go, to me your god is like Thor, i couldn't just choose to believe in any such ridiculous thing just because some mentally ill idiot decides i should.

Now, evidence... prove i'm not god.

You cannot prove that i am not god, thus i am god?

Seriously, think before you drink.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,981
15
81
I will say people usually don't answer honestly about their religious affiliations.
 
Jun 19, 2004
24,142
1,584
126
You didn't adress anything, none of your arguments make any sense what so ever.

I cannot choose to believe in god any more than you can choose to believe that Thor is the one true god, creator of thunder and lightning, do you understand why you don't believe that? Could you actually make a choice to believe it?

No?

Well there you go, to me your god is like Thor, i couldn't just choose to believe in any such ridiculous thing just because some mentally ill idiot decides i should.

Now, evidence... prove i'm not god.

You cannot prove that i am not god, thus i am god?

Seriously, think before you drink.
I thought you were out of here? I guess you crave the drama and attention. :)
I COULD choose to believe in Thor but, I choose not to.
You can make the choice to believe in God. In fact ONLY you can make the choice. It's called "free will." Some of us believe it was God's greatest gift.
You are not God (in your sense) because you cannot convince anyone you are. Jesus convinced many people.
I did in fact answer all of your points/concerns but, you chose to misunderstand or deny the answers. You see how many times choice enters into the discussion?
Why are unbelievers so frenzied in defense of their disbelief? You'd expect only someone who holds strong beliefs to be so rabid. Have I ridiculed you for your disbelief?
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Religion is not the cause of the bad things, and removing it would not fix anything.


Yes it is and yes it would, i know we're supposed to respect and tiptoe around other peoples retarded ideas because they are religon but in all seriousness, if it wasn't "religion" they would belong in an asylum for believing it.

I mean take Mormons, they actually believe that interracial sex should be punished by death, that they can has holys underwearz and that some fucker ruled Krypton (yeah, supermans fucking planet) and came to earth to be a prophet about this sheit.

I mean SERIOUSLY, people who actually believe that are not just religious people who should be respected, they are FUCKING INSANE!

But since it's religion it doesn't matter how fucking nuts you are, it's all good and should be respected even if you belive in talking donkeys, snakes and a god who sacrifices himself so he can rid mankind of a sin that he imposed upon them because they did what he always knew they would (you don't get to be omnipotent without omniscience and that means he knows every fucking thing you'll ever do even before you do it, thus you have no free will but lets leave that for another debate).

So god makes us sinners according to his plan, then he sends himself to die to atone for our sins?

Seriously, this is GOD, he could just say "no more sins" and be done with it... how can people not get that this is ancient mythology made up as they went along... i seriously would make a better god than Jesus could ever hope to be.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I give up, the dishonesty is just... you literally make me sick, literally as in a actually feel throwup in the base of my mouth.

This ... deflection and defence from the horrors of religion is... it's fucking insane, you're the kind of guy that would watch his father pour acid down his mothers throat and then go "oh well it's not about religion" and skippedi doppedi you forgot all about it...

I'm ending this discussion before i say something that will get me banned.
I will answer your question by asking you this.

If Atheists ever started to kill people who didn't convert, for example and by you being an Atheist that doesn't do that, could I blame Atheism or the few that are doing the killing? Could I say its a problem with Athesim, or the guys doing it?

I agree there are issues with religious teachings, but the people who are doing the teaching ARE the problem. The people who do and follow ARE the problem.

I think the Bible itself is good. in the wrong hands, it's deadly. Hence, the people running the show are the blame.
 
Last edited:

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
I will answer your question by asking you this.

If Atheists ever started to kill people who didn't convert, for example and by you being an Atheist that doesn't do that, could I blame Atheism or the few that are doing the killing? Could I say its a problem with Athesim, or the guys doing it?

I agree there are issues with religious teachings, but the people who are doing the teaching ARE the problem. The people who do and follow ARE the problem.

I think the Bible itself is good. in the wrong hands, it's deadly. Hence, the people running the show are the blame.
Which Bible? Under whose editorial edicts?

See how that slope is slippery?
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
I thought you were out of here? I guess you crave the drama and attention. :)
I COULD choose to believe in Thor but, I choose not to.
You can make the choice to believe in God. In fact ONLY you can make the choice. It's called "free will." Some of us believe it was God's greatest gift.
You are not God (in your sense) because you cannot convince anyone you are. Jesus convinced many people.
I did in fact answer all of your points/concerns but, you chose to misunderstand or deny the answers. You see how many times choice enters into the discussion?
Why are unbelievers so frenzied in defense of their disbelief? You'd expect only someone who holds strong beliefs to be so rabid. Have I ridiculed you for your disbelief?
I never said i was out of here, don't know where you got that from.

Now, see i don't think you actually could just decide to believe in Thor as your one true god, i really don't. But if you could, then prove it, naturally you couldn't prove it to me but you could prove it to yourself.

Let me get this straight, god is omniscient, he knew every choice every human ever made since before the dawn of mankind and yet we have free will? How do we have free will if god knows our choices, if god knows i will be an atheist and god cannot be wring then i cannot choose to be a theist, can i ?

Personally i want you to understand that your belief isn't something i could share no matter how much i wanted to because it's not a choice for me, no matter how much i want to i cannot believe in a god and i think it's the same for you, you cannot wake up tomorrow and choose to be a sun worshipper because you wouldn't believe in the sun god, not even if you chose to do so.

If believers didn't want their beliefs to dictate law in secular society there would be no problem what so ever, but some people apparently believe they live in SA and not a secular society.

Personal beliefs are PERSONAL, keep it to yourself and i swear to me that i won't bother you with it.

However, you can't really expect me to shut up when you are all preaching the false gospel, can you? Jesus was satan, i am god, prove that it's not true.

You can't prove that, that is the point, anything is potentially true philosophically but in reality, we don't think that everything that isn't disproven is true, we are actually pretty hardcore on demanding evidence for all claims, well, except for religon, if someone think he has magic underwear, belives that christ didn't exist as a human and was not sacrified on the cross he can still get christians to say that he's christian...
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Which Bible? Under whose editorial edicts?

See how that slope is slippery?
Any Bible. They essentally say the same thing. Again, how it is taught and interpreted is a whole different story.

And John, you need to control yourself. So what if you don't agree with what I am saying or not saying, calm the heck down.

I am entitled to not share your warped opinion, or address what you want me to address.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Good men will do good things,
Bad men will do bad things,
But for good men to do bad things,
That takes religion.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Any Bible. They essentally say the same thing. Again, how it is taught and interpreted is a whole different story.

And John, you need to control yourself. So what if you don't agree with what I am saying or not saying, calm the heck down.

I am entitled to not share your warped opinion, or address what you want me to address.
Calm down you little bitch, no one said you were not entitled to be a deranged moron and believe in talking snakes and talking donkeys, men living inside whales for 40 days and 40 nights and such.

It's just that if someone claimed any of that and it wasn't in a religion, you'd want him locked up for life.

Insanity is apparently ok as long as you claim it's part of your religion.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Calm down you little bitch, no one said you were not entitled to be a deranged moron and believe in talking snakes and talking donkeys, men living inside whales for 40 days and 40 nights and such.

..and a man walking on water too! Don't leave that out.
 
Jun 19, 2004
24,142
1,584
126
I never said i was out of here, don't know where you got that from.
I'm ending this discussion before i say something that will get me banned.
Now, see i don't think you actually could just decide to believe in Thor as your one true god, i really don't. But if you could, then prove it, naturally you couldn't prove it to me but you could prove it to yourself.
I already proved it to myself by choosing to believe in God.
Let me get this straight, god is omniscient, he knew every choice every human ever made since before the dawn of mankind and yet we have free will? How do we have free will if god knows our choices, if god knows i will be an atheist and god cannot be wring then i cannot choose to be a theist, can i ?Yes, you can and God would know that as well.
How does God having the ability to know what you will choose to do, take away your ability to choose? You can choose to cut off your nose to spite your face but, who does it hurt?
Personally i want you to understand that your belief isn't something i could share no matter how much i wanted to because it's not a choice for me, no matter how much i want to i cannot believe in a god and i think it's the same for you, you cannot wake up tomorrow and choose to be a sun worshipper because you wouldn't believe in the sun god, not even if you chose to do so.
Belief IS choice. I know it sounds simple because it is. Keeping the faith is the hard part.
If believers didn't want their beliefs to dictate law in secular society there would be no problem what so ever, but some people apparently believe they live in SA and not a secular society. It is human to attempt to influence those around you. However, attempting to make laws that penalize those who do not believe as you do is wrong.
Personal beliefs are PERSONAL, keep it to yourself and i swear to me that i won't bother you with it. Belief is a personal choice but, God tells us to spread the word. You may not like how some go about it (I don't) but, that is their choice just as it is yours to turn away.

However, you can't really expect me to shut up when you are all preaching the false gospel, can you? Jesus was satan, i am god, prove that it's not true.
This is your belief. I think it's wrong.
You can't prove that, that is the point, anything is potentially true philosophically but in reality, we don't think that everything that isn't disproven is true, we are actually pretty hardcore on demanding evidence for all claims, well, except for religon, if someone think he has magic underwear, belives that christ didn't exist as a human and was not sacrified on the cross he can still get christians to say that he's christian...
One good effect of congregating with folks who share your beliefs is that it helps to keep your faith. Jesus said he had no use for churches or temples. They are for his followers. Humans are fallible, we'll all find out the TRUTH soon enough but, it won't be on Earth.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
One good effect of congregating with folks who share your beliefs is that it helps to keep your faith. Jesus said he had no use for churches or temples. They are for his followers. Humans are fallible, we'll all find out the TRUTH soon enough but, it won't be on Earth.
First of all, i can't respond to that mishmash of colouring, learn to end quotes so that the next person who quotes you can respond to your points, now i'm sure you already know that but being a religious person you want to be a dishonest cuntbag because that is how religious persons act on their best days, right?

To make this more confusing i will answer in a bullet point fashion with random numbers.

431: even you understand that within a thread you can have several discussions with several people and ending one doesn't mean "i'm out of here", right?

2 you have been indoctrinated into believing in god, it was never a choice, if you had been born and raised in SA you'd be a muslim, if you had been born and raised in India you'd be a Hindu, you were never allowed to make a choice.

96 If god knows i'll go left, i cannot go right or god would be wrong, since god cannot be wrong i have to go left, my choice to go right doesn't exist, none of my choices in my entire life exists because god knows beforehand what i'll choose and i cannot choose anything but that. If god knows that i'll shoot myself, i cannot choose not to shoot myself, thus anything i ever do is always in gods plan and none of it is my choice.

Can you choose to cut of your nose to spite your face if god knows that you will not do it? No you cannot becase that choice is one you don't have, just like very other choice in your life, if you kill yourself today it's gods will, he knew you would and cannot be wrong so you couldn't not kill yourself today. With gods omniscience comes fatalism and predetermination of every choice you cannot make because you cannot choose anything that god doesn't know you will choose.

12 Belief is something you have or not, you cannot choose to believe i am god any more than i can choose to believe that there is a god. I could pretend to believe it but that would be dishonest.

96125 well move to Saudi Arabia and enjoy the theocratic society if that is the way you want it, EVERY SINGLE SUCCESSFUL society is a representative democracy with a mixed economy and EVERY SINGLE ONE is secular. this is not a coincidence. If you want to be the religious tyrant you're probably in the wrong nation.

42865 I don't believe that helicopters are human beings but if i chose to believe they were i could actually believe that?

Yeah... no.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,760
11
81
No, but they are the only ones that do it because god demands it.

AGAIN

Bad people will do bad things,
Good people will do good things,
But for good people to do bad things,
That takes religion.

Do you get that, that religion can convince good people to do bad things because religion is about a higher power, if god commands you you must follow even if you know it's wrong.
If "good" people do bad things, I'd suggest they weren't all that good to begin with.

Humans are mostly motivated by emotions, not logical thoughts, which can only hope to temper and moderate those emotions. Look at you - your anger toward religion has pushed you into irrationality.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,760
11
81
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/?hpt=hp_c2

This trend is unavoidable, undeniable, and unstoppable. I hope I live to see the day when religion no longer dominates our politics, our politicians, and our public policies.
I'd say the actual numbers are somewhat higher. A good number of the Christians I know are more cultural Christians than actual believers. From the research I've seen, the majority of Americans do not regularly attend religious services.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,219
465
126
No, but they are the only ones that do it because god demands it.

AGAIN

Bad people will do bad things,
Good people will do good things,
But for good people to do bad things,
That takes religion.

Do you get that, that religion can convince good people to do bad things because religion is about a higher power, if god commands you you must follow even if you know it's wrong.

You mean Jesus was wrong when he spared the adulteress since he wasn't following his religion?
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
0
0
Except that the definition of progress is that of moving from bad to good. Improvement. You don't improve by arbitrarily changing what is already good.

Arguing that things should be changed with no regard for why it should be changed is madness. Insanity. I don't know any other term for it.

I'll quit my job now. Change is good. Wife and kids be damned. Change is more important.

I know it's a bit lame to post quotes, but I can't help it.



-GKC
Yes, you do. You improve upon what is good to make it better. We're constantly seeking what is better. "Good enough" is how society stagnates.

You're entitled to your opinion of what constitutes madness and insanity, no matter how wrong that opinion is.

Progress is not just moving from bad to good, it is also moving from good to better-than-good. Sometimes things have to get worse in order for them to get better and for everyone to be better off in the future.
 
Nov 29, 2006
14,500
2,210
126
I will answer your question by asking you this.

If Atheists ever started to kill people who didn't convert, for example and by you being an Atheist that doesn't do that, could I blame Atheism or the few that are doing the killing? Could I say its a problem with Athesim, or the guys doing it?

I agree there are issues with religious teachings, but the people who are doing the teaching ARE the problem. The people who do and follow ARE the problem.

I think the Bible itself is good. in the wrong hands, it's deadly. Hence, the people running the show are the blame.
Athiesm isnt an organized anything. Their really isnt anything to convert to. And to assembly an army of athiest to fight for something would be very hard to do (act of god?) :p.. since they are all free thinking individuals minus the fact they dont beleive in a god.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
Any Bible. They essentally say the same thing. Again, how it is taught and interpreted is a whole different story.
Just as a reader, knowing that there are so many various revisions and editorial choices made by the very teachers you effectively say shouldn't be trusted, I simply don't know how you can say that ANY version of the Bible will convey the same tenets and stories. The translation matters. The language matters. The version of events matters. And all of these are doubly true if you consider the events historical.
 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
4,669
271
126
Unfortunately? If P&N were a microcosm of society at large, we'd be killing each other in the streets. I could do without that.
This. The world going 'atheist' will solve nothing. People will still find reasons to hate and oppress each other. If for no other reason than 'you're not the right flavor of atheism'.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
2,323
126
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/?hpt=hp_c2

This trend is unavoidable, undeniable, and unstoppable. I hope I live to see the day when religion no longer dominates our politics, our politicians, and our public policies.
You will never live to see that day. Generally the more educated a person is (particularly in science) the higher the likelihood of them not believing in a deity and the less educated a person the more likely they are to believe in a deity. I doubt we will get to a point that everyone, or even a majority of everyone, will be that educated and so long as you have uneducated masses you will never get rid of religion. Even then there is a decent enough percentage of people that still believe in a God of some sort.

Note: There is a large difference between not associating with a specific religion and believing in God.

Here are some stats for you.

90% of the west believes in some sort of personal God
40% of scientists believe in some sort of personal God
15% of "elite" scientists believe in some sort of personal God


Bottom line: We will always have unanswered questions and history has shown that God is almost always invoked when we reach the limit of our knowledge. Even some of the most brilliant minds ever to walk the planet have invoked God when they came to the limit of their knowledge, even Newton, who was probably the smartest man to ever live in recorded history, who had never written about God in any of his other scientific writings invoked God (actually Intelligent design to be specific) once he reached the limit of his knowledge. Obviously we have already figured out what he said was "impossible and therefor must be God" but it points out what humans tend to do.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
0
0
You will never live to see that day. Generally the more educated a person is (particularly in science) the higher the likelihood of them not believing in a deity and the less educated a person the more likely they are to believe in a deity. I doubt we will get to a point that everyone, or even a majority of everyone, will be that educated and so long as you have uneducated masses you will never get rid of religion. Even then there is a decent enough percentage of people that still believe in a God of some sort.

Note: There is a large difference between not associating with a specific religion and believing in God.

Here are some stats for you.

90% of the west believes in some sort of personal God
40% of scientists believe in some sort of personal God
15% of "elite" scientists believe in some sort of personal God


Bottom line: We will always have unanswered questions and history has shown that God is almost always invoked when we reach the limit of our knowledge. Even some of the most brilliant minds ever to walk the planet have invoked God when they came to the limit of their knowledge, even Newton, who was probably the smartest man to ever live in recorded history, who had never written about God in any of his other scientific writings invoked God (actually Intelligent design to be specific) once he reached the limit of his knowledge. Obviously we have already figured out what he said was "impossible and therefor must be God" but it points out what humans tend to do.
Did you see this portion of the OP:

OP said:
I hope I live to see the day when religion no longer dominates our politics, our politicians, and our public policies.
Nowhere in that does it say I hope or expect religion to go away completely or that I am in any way talking about personal spiritual beliefs.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
It will change, but not how people think or expect.

Just like religion, Atheists are out to control people too. If they didn't, they wouldn't write books and have organizations aimed at pulling people out from faith.

Just like the fat-cat religious leaders, they're out to get your support and money too... your allegiance. So those who want, go ahead and run from one form of control to another. It's stupid. You're not free. You'd still be controlled by another human's flawed and self-serving philosophy.

There are no such thing as "free thinkers". Everyone's doing something someone already did or told them to do.

I don't think people not wanting religion is stupid, I think what's stupid is running from under one leaky roof to another, from drinking dog piss to drinking human piss.

Atheists will only replace Christians in D.C. Is that what this country wants?

If someone wants to propose change, they better have a better alternative. I see none.

EDIT: This was really in response to crastestdummy's post:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34072488&postcount=10
Some atheists are. I would imagine that the number of atheists whose only goal is to control people or gain wealth & power is less than it is for "fat-cat religious leaders"; as well both sub-groups are a significantly small number of their respective groups.

Some religious people say that atheists worship science; that's an easy thing to say and fairly difficult to prove.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
2,323
126
Did you see this portion of the OP:



Nowhere in that does it say I hope or expect religion to go away completely or that I am in any way talking about personal spiritual beliefs.
The problem is history has shown us that its almost impossible to get one without the other. People will always interject their beliefs into their politics which is why here in the US, despite the first amendment, we have politicians trying to, and sometimes succeeding in, passing legislation based solely on their religion.

I wish that I could foresee a day when we don't have to worry about that as well but unfortunately, imho, as long as we have a large percentage of the population that believe in relatively the same religion I don't see how its possible.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY