1/3 of surveyed in the US think being christian is part of being American

[fskimospy]

Irrelevant. If the quotes are sourced, they're valid. Just because they're a Christian activist site doesn't mean the founders didn't say those things. Just because HomerJS may be hostile to Christians doesn't mean the founding fathers didn't say what he quoted them as saying.

Not irrelevant at ALL. Activist sites will often choose quotes selectively and leave out other pertinent information. From the link you provided I would get the impression that most founding fathers were Christians when they were not.

I was just looking at that book the other day, though I haven't read it to the end. What's important to me is that they appeared to care for the practical aspects of Christianity, which would certainly inform their approach to forming a new country.

Would you consider someone who rejects the divinity of Jesus to be a Christian? I wouldn't. While I'm not sure what you consider to be the practical aspects of Christianity, the basic principles of Christianity are shared by a lot of religions, it's not particularly special in that way.

I don't know man. That's the impression I get. There are more than one on this board who talk about a Christian Sharia like it's an actual possibility.

You see people on this board who claim that Christians are about to violently overthrow the government and create a theocracy? Who are these people?

What I see is people (rightly) complaining about Christians attempting to enforce their religious dogma on others, which is a perfectly valid complaint considering how often it happens. Again, a fairly large subset of Christians want our government to pay people to engage in compulsory education of children with Christianity's creation myth. That's pretty fucked up.

 

[fskimospy]

Compared with Hillary? Yes, exactly that.

What aspects of Clinton do you believe were worse than Trump in those respects, specifically?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Compared with Hillary? Yes, exactly that.

bullshit man, just bullshit. she's been married to the same man, she lies, but nobody, and I mean nobody lies with the proclivity of drumpf, who's been proven to be the biggest liar in politics in recent history. drumpf mocks the disabled, brags about sexual assault, goddamn man, your religion is either incredibly stupid or willfully ignorant.

 

[Atreus21]

Not irrelevant at ALL. Activist sites will often choose quotes selectively and leave out other pertinent information. From the link you provided I would get the impression that most founding fathers were Christians when they were not.

The same could be said for HomerJS' links. We can't be certain of the validity of the quotes until we have the entire context?

Then in that case we can't come to any conclusion at all. What I should've done is just posted the quotes themselves and not revealed the source, as Homer did. Would that magically have made my quotes as irrefutable as his?

Would you consider someone who rejects the divinity of Jesus to be a Christian? I wouldn't.

No.

While I'm not sure what you consider to be the practical aspects of Christianity, the basic principles of Christianity are shared by a lot of religions, it's not particularly special in that way.

Yet of the quotes from those founding fathers, they specifically cite Christianity.

You see people on this board who claim that Christians are about to violently overthrow the government and create a theocracy? Who are these people?

Yes, essentially. Jhhhn comes to mind, but I'd have to start plowing through the various threads to find others by name.

What I see is people (rightly) complaining about Christians attempting to enforce their religious dogma on others, which is a perfectly valid complaint considering how often it happens.
Again, a fairly large subset of Christians want our government to pay people to engage in compulsory education of children with Christianity's creation myth. That's pretty fucked up.

I offer no defense of creationism being taught in school outside of religion classes, and many times on this forum have stated that I never understood the threat the Christians perceive from evolution.

There is secular dogma being forced on others as well, particularly regarding gay marriage and abortion.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Not irrelevant at ALL. Activist sites will often choose quotes selectively and leave out other pertinent information. From the link you provided I would get the impression that most founding fathers were Christians when they were not.

Link?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

The same could be said for HomerJS' links. We can't be certain of the validity of the quotes until we have the entire context?

Then in that case we can't come to any conclusion at all.



No.



Yet of the quotes from those founding fathers, they specifically cite Christianity.



Yes, essentially. Jhhhn comes to mind, but I'd have to start plowing through the various threads to find others by name.



I offer no defense of creationism being taught in school outside of religion classes, and many times on this forum have stated that I never understood the threat the Christians perceive from evolution.

There is secular dogma being forced on others as well, particularly regarding gay marriage and abortion.

secular dogma? You mean science, and the scientific method?

 

[Atreus21]

What aspects of Clinton do you believe were worse than Trump in those respects, specifically?

Abortion in particular. Hillary's call for repealing the Hyde amendment. The posture of the US towards the threat of Islamic terrorism.

 

[Atreus21]

secular dogma? You mean science, and the scientific method?

Don't make me laugh. Liberals value science when it gets them where they want to go.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Don't make me laugh. Liberals value science when it gets them where they want to go.

Like across the ocean, across the country, to the moon, yea, we do value it then.

 

[fskimospy]

Link?

Already provided.

 

[kage69]

A fairly brief overview of the link I provided will quickly refute that. Here are only three:

John Adams: The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

A holy roller such as yourself using a dubious source to validate their position, shocker! Tell you what, let's make this short and sweet: how exactly do you reconcile that with Adams' "The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" ?

Many founders were quite Christian, yet didn't want a theocracy. That seems clear enough, yet liberals seem unable to imagine that there can be such a distinction.

Need some twine for all that straw? Liberals aren't the ones confused on this, and also aren't the ones trying to revise history or the government to appease their religious convictions. Christians like to ignore the Masonic side of the founders history, and you don't sound much different. Lame.

Liberals appear to see Christians the way conservatives appear to see Muslims.

There's literally no issue that you christians won't try to act like victims about, is there? Pathetic. Liberals, centrists, and many non-religious conservatives happen to see zealots and dominionists as threats to democracy and the Constitution. If you and your ilk take exception to the reactions of your efforts, then cut that shit out. Pretty straight forward really.

 

[fskimospy]

The same could be said for HomerJS' links. We can't be certain of the validity of the quotes until we have the entire context?

Then in that case we can't come to any conclusion at all.

What I'm saying is that activist sites often deliberately omit context to fit their agenda, which is why they shouldn't be trusted.

No.

Yet of the quotes from those founding fathers, they specifically cite Christianity.

Well sure, that's the culture they were raised in. It doesn't make Christianity special in that regard though.

Yes, essentially. Jhhhn comes to mind, but I'd have to start plowing through the various threads to find others by name.

I offer no defense of creationism being taught in school outside of religion classes, and many times on this forum have stated that I never understood the threat the Christians perceive from evolution.

There is secular dogma being forced on others as well, particularly regarding gay marriage and abortion.

Can you provide examples of what you consider to be 'secular dogma' that is being forced on people?

 

[norseamd]

Looks like a Kommissar Santa Claus.

If thats truly what you are fine with feeling or partisaning, then maybe you really are a problem.

 

[nakedfrog]

I'm surprised and happy it's as low as 32%

No, they just want to make America great again. We built things, we had real jobs, we had things. That's why Trump won.

America never stopped being great.

You know part of our immigration laws states that the applicant must be fluent in English and implies that they should assimilate into our culture. Too many of them only come here to take advantage of the opportunities that our country offers but have no intentions of assimilating into it. English should be our official language and multilingual signage or paperwork should not be required for anything except international documents. If you don't like it you know where the exits are.

Does it? I was not aware of that.

I'm thinking most are "Well I'm not Jewish or a Muslim and maybe there's a God so I guess I'm a Christian" Christians.

And with the widespread distrust of atheists, some people may just identify as Christian because it's less hassle.

You know, all a conservative on this board would have to do is start posting polls of Muslims around the world showing a preference for Sharia law and the death penalty for apostasy, and leftists would call them Islamophobes.

Secondly, the charge of hypocrisy against Christians who voted for Trump is sheer nonsense. Christians didn't go looking around for the best candidate they could, finding Trump. They were presented with a madman like Trump versus a lying criminal like Hillary, and chose according to their options. Trump, if nothing else, gave at least lip service to the issues that Christians tend to care about. Hillary wrote them off as deplorables, arrogantly thinking she didn't need to appeal for their vote.

The rest of your post is just more inflammatory silliness against Christians.

That's not a particularly accurate representation of the "deplorables" incident. The people she was referring to (anti-LGBT, Islamaphobes, racists, sexists) would not have voted for her in any circumstance.

what about those filthy irish flying their flags or those evil italians flying their flags? I mean there's a whole "Ukrainian village" in Chicago, when are those fuckers gonna go back?
And don't even get me started on those scheißkopf germans.

We have a Czech festival here, and a German festival... WTH, you're in America now, assimilate, right?

Liberals appear to see Christians the way conservatives appear to see Muslims.

Only the extremists. There exist plenty of Christian liberals. You do yourself no favors by viewing the extremists as the entirety.

Of the available options, Trump more closely aligned with Christians than Hillary did.

With his words only. But if there's one thing Trump is good at, it's selling bullshit.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

OK here's what we can do. Let's take Trump's initiative and keep those dangerous Christians and Muslims out. Then atheists and agnostics have harmed others too.

Answer is pretty straightforward. Don't let anyone in at all. YAY

 

[Atreus21]

A holy roller such as yourself...

I'm not a holy roller.

using a dubious source to validate their position, shocker!

The quotes are sourced.

Tell you what, let's make this short and sweet: how exactly do you reconcile that with Adams' "The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" ?

I don't know, frankly. How do you reconcile your quote from Adams with this one from the same man?

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!

There's literally no issue that you christians won't try to act like victims about, is there? Pathetic. Liberals, centrists, and many non-religious conservatives happen to see zealots and dominionists as threats to democracy and the Constitution. If you and your ilk take exception to the reactions of your efforts, then cut that shit out. Pretty straight forward really.

I think you've proven my point, namely that liberals, or at least some of them, refuse to see Christians as anything but "zealots and dominionists."

 

[norseamd]

Many founders were quite Christian, yet didn't want a theocracy. That seems clear enough, yet liberals seem unable to imagine that there can be such a distinction.

When have you ever knew or understood anything about the Founding Fathers and religion? Let alone read anything about any of it.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Already provided.

After reading your link I can see that you spun your misleading and dishonest narrative most excellently! Kudos!

I expected as much.

 

[Atreus21]

When have you ever knew or understood anything about the Founding Fathers and religion? Let alone read anything about any of it.

Schooling, some research, my own experiences, that sort of thing.

 

[fskimospy]

After reading your link I can see that you spun your misleading and dishonest narrative most excellently! Kudos!

I expected as much.

I most certainly did not, please stop lying.

If you think I spun it misleadingly please cite specific things that I wrote. Otherwise, I expect you to edit your post and replace it with an apology.

 

[norseamd]

what about those filthy irish flying their flags or those evil italians flying their flags? I mean there's a whole "Ukrainian village" in Chicago, when are those fuckers gonna go back?

And don't even get me started on those scheißkopf germans.

 

[bshole]

Like across the ocean, across the country, to the moon, yea, we do value it then.

that one left a mark....

 

[norseamd]

Schooling, some research, my own experiences, that sort of thing.

Ok, let me see if something is around that must be like a full out doctorate on the subject or something.

Oh, yeah, right here!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I most certainly did not, please stop lying.

If you think I spun it misleadingly please cite specific things that I wrote. Otherwise, I expect you to edit your post and replace it with an apology.

I see exactly what you did in your usual weasel-like fashion. Technically correct...when deceptively and dishonestly framed.

 

[Grooveriding]

This is the same elementary school I know you are but what am I/you're just as bad schoolyard logic. It's not a left/right position to have an issue with religious myths having influence in politics. Particularly if you are discussing US demographics, as most Liberals also identify as christians in the US. The difference being they apparently tend to be less prone to thinking they have a right to force their beliefs on others or use them as a basis of discrimination. Maybe they are also less likely to believe the bible is literal truth. Which apparently 1 in 3 people in the US believe. People who believe that a big boat once held all the species of the Earth, that the Earth is only 6000 years old or that evolution didn't occur. That is a demographic that I guess could explain a joke like Trump becoming President.

Judaism, islam, christianity, whatever. All nonsense and collectively all need to go and when they finally largely subside into mythology like the religions that came before them society will be the better for it. If we hopefully don't find once again new religions just replacing the old as we have seen in the past.

The fact that many of the founders of the US were themselves religious is not the point, it's that they understood their beliefs had no place in their government because of their own experiences. A fundamental principle that is being ignored. The recently revealed possible executive order is truly despicable. Calling it freedom of religion in allowing you to deny service to people based on who they are is disgusting, and ironically, is certainly not WJWD if you believe in that mythology.

It also opens the door to heavy abuse. There is obviously no litmus test for religion beyond writing a book. That's all it takes to create 'alternative' religious facts. So what is to stop someone from then going ahead and writing up a quick couple chapters where they feel people who wear pink are violating their religious beliefs and hence can't bring themselves to provide service to them in their business ? The problem with religion is that it's fiction so you can pretty much do anything you want with it. Just make up any sort of nonsense you want and then hide behind 'religious freedom'. The only freedom the religious should have is to have their beliefs and express them if they so choose, the freedom ends at entering government or subjecting it on people who don't share their beliefs, because at those points it becomes tyranny, theocracy and fanaticism - not freedom.

Freedom is never going to be discriminating against or forcing your beliefs on other people.