palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Hopefully, the SCOTUS will soon make DC's gun-laws, and thus "voluntary searches for guns," obsolete.
/fingers crossed!
That said, I'd ask to see a warrant. In the absence of a valid warrant, I'd kindly say "No, have a nice day," and shut the door on them.
/fingers crossed!
That said, I'd ask to see a warrant. In the absence of a valid warrant, I'd kindly say "No, have a nice day," and shut the door on them.
Uhmm, if I'm not mistaken the DC gun ban is more then 30 years old. If they are using it as a testing ground they are sure taking their sweet time.
I wonder if they'd actually make good on their "offer of amnesty". I mean, when a cop pulls you over and says he'll "help you out" if you tell the truth, he's lying through his teeth. Cops don't care about your rights, they're there to punish you for breaking the law, and if you agree and tell him everything, your "deal" will be the same as if you had said no or even lied. I don't see why they need to make good on this, either. It sounds like more like a ruse than an offer.
***You guys know how to answer the door when the "authorities" come to it, right? Go outside to speak, don't allow them inside. Close the door behind you. You're the guard, you're the gate-keeper, you're the king here. Unless they've gotten a court ordered warrant, they answer to you while on your property, but they will do what they can to even catch a glimpse of the inside of your dwelling... It's what they're trained to do.
***You guys know how to answer the door when the "authorities" come to it, right? Go outside to speak, don't allow them inside. Close the door behind you. You're the guard, you're the gate-keeper, you're the king here. Unless they've gotten a court ordered warrant, they answer to you while on your property, but they will do what they can to even catch a glimpse of the inside of your dwelling... It's what they're trained to do.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
In this case it is a specific, publicly stated and officially endorsed policy of 'amnesty'. You are comparing it to a verbal promise made by an officer that's hard to prove. I guarantee you no one will be prosecuted under this amnesty, and if for some insane reason they are the government will have the case thrown out immediately. Having law enforcement promise not to prosecute you for having something illegal and then prosecuting you for it when you turn it in is the very definition of entrapment. In addition it would undermine the ability for any jurisdiction in the entire country to ever have a program such as this again, as nobody would trust it.
There is literally a zero percent chance of any prosecutions coming out of this for both legal and public policy reasons.
Got an annoying roommate you'd like to kill? Ungrateful spouse planning to take you to the cleaners with divorce? Sounds like a good time to take care of these problems.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
I think you are ignoring the tacit authority that people in positions of power have. For example, you leave Walmart and are asked for your receipt. Do you have to provide it? No, but maybe you don't know that an assume that by asking for it you have to provide it, and thus you do. We're used to listening to cops, so if they ask us to do something, we may do it. One can dig up stories of people doing really silly things like being pulled over for speeding and taking their clothes off because a cop asked them to.
A lot of people are doomed, but they still have power. If we let the "proles" be abused, in time they will support the abusers and then those in the know will find themselves lacking in options.
Then I still don't see the point of it. Nobody with a gun is going to let the cop search, so what is the point?
I've always wondered whether refusing consent to search your property would constitute reasonable suspicion to search your property. I could see the cops trying to pull that one off.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
We are so far from totalitarianism. If you think we are, go visit a few 3rd world country that actually is. You'll change your mind real quick.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Such an interpretation would render the 4th Amendment non-existant.
Doesn't meanit won't happen though. The Interstate Commerce Clause has been so distorted as render much of the Constitution as regards states' rights and no fed police powers non-existent.
Fern
Not as far as you think. I'm pretty sure I could write a brochure, "Four Easy Steps from the US Today to Totalitarianism."
1. Expand voluntary searches nationwide.
2. Wait 2 years.
3. Remove the "voluntary" part.
4. Profit!
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
The problem is getting from step 1 to step 3. Seeing who is currently sitting on the SCOTUS, and will be for some time, it aint gonna happen. Sure they'll be abuses, but overall it wont. Im not justifying it AT ALL. I think its pretty shitty. But the friggin sky is falling mentality with no regards to forethought is mind boggling.
And if you think thats all it would take to get us to totalitarianism, you need to travel. You can go as close as Mexico and you'll know what ZERO freedom and TOTAL invasion of privacy is like.
Hung up on the step "Wait two years?" That's the easy part.
In the last two years, I have seen the erosion of privacy first hand. I have witnessed the installation of cameras at thousands of intersections, the beginning of th requirement of state-issued identification for totally random things. We're already in to step #2 as far as I can tell.Once the Bill of Rights is neglected (as it would be given the steps I proposed), the rest is just a house of cards. How many amendments have we discussed in the last 2-3 days that have been cast aside by the SCOTUS in favor of "the greater good" (or whatever Animal Farm-esque language they choose on that particular day)? The second and fourth at the least, and these are two foundational rights on which the rest of them are built. If I'm not allowed to have a gun and cops can search me without probable cause, then I have no more rights and we're living the high life that Mexico has now. Freedom of speech and all the others are trivial to remove at that point because the people have lost their rights to be secure in their person, effects, and home, let alone in public places. I wish I could say that this is a slippery slope fallacy, but I can't find any way to describe it in that way.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Hung up on the step "Wait two years?" That's the easy part.
Once the Bill of Rights is neglected (as it would be given the steps I proposed), the rest is just a house of cards. How many amendments have we discussed in the last 2-3 days that have been cast aside by the SCOTUS in favor of "the greater good" (or whatever Animal Farm-esque language they choose on that particular day)? The second and fourth at the least, and these are two foundational rights on which the rest of them are built. If I'm not allowed to have a gun and cops can search me without probable cause, then I have no more rights and we're living the high life that Mexico has now. Freedom of speech and all the others are trivial to remove at that point because the people have lost their rights to be secure in their person, effects, and home, let alone in public places. I wish I could say that this is a slippery slope fallacy, but I can't find any way to describe it in that way.
I understand what youre saying. I, too, have seen some rights stripped away. I have worked in central offices when we got orders to install homeland security's boxes on fiber. I understand what you mean. The other side of the coin is, I see government more nudging than actually forcing. Its like the high school kid who wants to get into his date's pants. He kinda edges towards it, but when she denies him, he backs off (usually lol)
Take the above example. First of all, as a side note, the government doesnt have a fraction of the staff to analyze a bundle of fiber's traffic. Even if sniffed, the manpower isnt there. So the chances of it happening are close to nil. Sure, every once in a while it does, but nothing is 100%. Anyhow. This fiber sniffer. There are free, widely available tools available to ANYONE to protect yourself from this. This isnt the proper forum, but all this "The NSA can do things you couldnt imagine" is kinda paranoid talk. You want your data protected? Encrypt it. The NSA cannot, and has not, broken AES encryption. Its done by social engineering, but again thats another topic. It's not illegal to own, or use, encryption. Therefore, your privacy is protected and forcefully stripped away.
Take the police showing up at your door. Although they are there asking for persmission, we can still say no. In the world youre talking about, we couldnt. In the world youre talking about, possesing encrytion buys you a cell (in some countries it does). So I look at it as nudging. Now, whether people are actually smart enough to know they arent required to give in, is another story. Unfortunatly most people would cave. So they get what they deserve.
When you say "people have lost their rights to be secure in their person, effects, and home, let alone in public places" you had it wrong until the public places part. That part is a huge grey area. The whole "you have no expectation of privacy in a public place" has its arguments.
Anyway. I understand what youre saying. But based on my travelling, what Im saying is we have a very, very, very long way to go before we resemble a totalitarian country.
I agree. I just don't see anyone denying. We're a bunch of sluts in this case.
The rest of what you said I more or less agree with. I'm just speaking in generalizations and about what might happen. Obviously there's little certainty of anything at this point, but I'm still a little worried (and I'm definitely not a worrier).
My guess is you've never been to Mexico. On a day to day basis, I'd say Mexico has more freedom and less invasion of privacy than the US. That's pretty much why I moved from the States down to Mexico.
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