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Zero-energy Perpetual motion due to time? VERY interesting article from Wired.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/04/time-crystals/

I don't have anything resembling the physics background to offer an opinion, but suffice it to say this would be huge. Probably not very useful for power generation, as the crystal has to stay in its zero-energy state to prove that it's a time crystal, but could be a beloved patriot in the armor of current theory.
 
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Came in expecting bullshit.

Mind (slightly) blown. Very interesting.

If true, I wonder if we could harness such motion by continuously cooling particles to their zero energy state? Even if it worked, probably not worth the energy required to cool them, but that's technology we can improve...
 
An international team led by Berkeley scientists is preparing an elaborate lab experiment, although it may take “anywhere between three and infinity years” to complete, depending on funding or unforeseen technical difficulties, said Häffner, who is co-principal investigator with Zhang.

I lol'd.

If it takes infinite years to complete, does that mean it's impossibur?

Say yes or you fail maths.
 
To see the ring’s rotation, the scientists will zap one of the ions with a laser, effectively tagging it by putting it into a different electronic state than the other 99 ions. It will stay bright (and reveal its new location) when the others are darkened by a second laser.

How do we know the photons from the laser are not causing the ring to rotate?

Crookes_radiometer_moving.gif
 
As the article says, this isn't entirely new. The important part is
Wilczek mulled over the possibility for months. Eventually, his equations indicated that atoms could indeed form a regularly repeating lattice in time, returning to their initial arrangement only after discrete (rather than continuous) intervals, thereby breaking time symmetry. Without consuming or producing energy, time crystals would be stable, in what physicists call their “ground state,” despite cyclical variations in structure that scientists say can be interpreted as perpetual motion.
Practically speaking, the key phrases are "without consuming or producing energy," and "could be interpreted as perpetual motion." And we will find out for sure in 3-∞ years.
 
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As the article says, this isn't entirely new. The important part is

The key phrases are, "without consuming or producing energy," and "could be interpreted as perpetual motion."

Can they prove it's happening, in other words, can they view it without firing a laser at it and consuming energy? And possibly affecting the outcome in the process?
 
Can they prove it's happening, in other words, can they view it without firing a laser at it and consuming energy? And possibly affecting the outcome in the process?

Hell if I know. Wilczek sure thinks it can be proven, while Bruno is pretty sure it is impossible, and Li is just along for the ride. With some luck the experiment will complete and the scientific debate will be settled one way or another within a decade. But I know I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
 
Are you saying photons can't affect the movement of calcium atoms while they can move a radiometer's vanes?

You apparently missed this part of the article:

but diode lasers like those found in DVD players will be used to gradually scatter away their extra kinetic energy. According to the group’s calculations, the ion ring should settle into its ground state when the ions are laser-cooled to around one-billionth of a degree above absolute zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_cooling

So actually, to put it simply, shining a laser or lasers on an atom in the appropriate manner can actually reduce its energy. Quantum physics is weird.
 
I will most possibly be wrong, but here is my general interpretation of the phenomenon described in the article.

First the theory deals with the energy possessed by a crystallined chunk of matter. This article claims that when mass is first created, everything inside that quanta of matter (i.e. atoms, protons, electrons) organizes themselves into spatial three dimensional lattices under various rules of laws of physics. Amongst one of the most important rules at play here is the law that no two discrete units of that matter can occupy the same space at the same time. This is as simple as saying Atom A cannot share the same space as Atom B at the same time. The laws of physics forces the discrete unit Atom A to have a different point in the lattice than Atom B and this is called Spatial symmetry breaking. i.e. all discrete mass units will each have a specific set of positional choices where they can potentially exist within that spatial lattice.

Now the article claims that there exists a phenomenon called temporal symmetry breaking too. The article is not clear about this, but I believe this temporal symmetry breaking refers to a process which forces any atom in a lattice to preserve its energy state by reorienting its spatial symmetry bonding in a time discrete manner. The simple explanation of this means that if within a lattice, atom A is at energy level X and atom B is at energy level Y, then there will definitely be both a spatial and temporal limit to the energy that entire lattice will possess.

The whole concept can be thought of as saying because Atom A has energy level X, it is spatially bonded to Atom B at the energy level Y.

Here within this lattice, both atom A and B can reorient the bond of their crystalline lattice in either spatial or temporal sense without any additional energy added to them, how?

Due to Spatial Symmetry breaking, the atoms A and B are forced to choose discrete values for their positional bonding inside the lattice as a product of their individual time bound energy states, X and Y respectively.

Due to Temporal Symmetry breaking, the atoms A and B are forced to choose discrete time dependent energy states dependent on the characteristics of the spatial positional bond between them within the lattice at the moment.

So the trick here is that Atom A 's time and spatial bound energy state can change, but that change gets compensated by the change in Atom B's own state. So there is no net energy loss or gain for the lattice itself. But the lattice can itself keep reorganizing itself, changing its own internal configuration due to the play of the temporal and spatial symmetry breaking in the atoms within its lattice. I suspect that this behavior is being mistaking interpreted as perpetual energy. It may turn out to be nothing more than the law of conservation of inertia/massenergy at play in the quantum scale.
 
Seems to be another showdown between general relativity and quantum physics. The only way this happens is if quantum physics is an incomplete description of some more complete theory, but similar attempts to demonstrate this over the decades have all failed. If I were a betting person, I'd bet against it.
 
What the article states in your quote, and that you evaded my question have not gone unnoticed.

I haven't evaded your question at all. You just don't seem to comprehend that "reducing an atom's energy" = stopping it from moving.

So yes, to spell it out for you, a laser can move an individual atom if used one way, but can also slow it down if used another way. So they can shine a laser on one of their ions and not induce net motion.
 
I'm not entirely sure I follow here, but how can ions being held in an electrical trap be considered a natural state crystal? I understand we're talking about quantum constructs here, so something is obviously missing, but this doesn't seem to be a natural lattice arrangement of any sort, be it spacial or temporal.

The experiment to me really doesn't seem like it is accomplishing anything that we wouldn't already expect to happen.
 
I'm not entirely sure I follow here, but how can ions being held in an electrical trap be considered a natural state crystal? I understand we're talking about quantum constructs here, so something is obviously missing, but this doesn't seem to be a natural lattice arrangement of any sort, be it spacial or temporal.

The experiment to me really doesn't seem like it is accomplishing anything that we wouldn't already expect to happen.

My read is it's basically saying you can cool a lattice down as close to absolute zero as possible, with tech that's just become available less than a year ago, and despite near zero energy (including kinetic energy), there will be continuous, discrete motion as a result of the particles' interaction with time itself.

That's quite unexpected.
 
This will never see mass use. Why? Because nothing is allowed that would upset the monolithic mechanisms of economic and social control currently in place.
 
My read is it's basically saying you can cool a lattice down as close to absolute zero as possible, with tech that's just become available less than a year ago, and despite near zero energy (including kinetic energy), there will be continuous, discrete motion as a result of the particles' interaction with time itself.

That's quite unexpected.

Still something feels like the experiment is just demonstrating classical physics here. They're using ions - particles with inherent charge. They're using an electrical trap. They're inducing them to a ground state, then they're exciting one to something that's not a ground state.

The experiment they're proposing just seems obvious to me given the parameters. Hence my confusion.
 
Still something feels like the experiment is just demonstrating classical physics here. They're using ions - particles with inherent charge. They're using an electrical trap. They're inducing them to a ground state, then they're exciting one to something that's not a ground state.

The experiment they're proposing just seems obvious to me given the parameters. Hence my confusion.

The experimental concept is fairly simple, but implementing it requires technology that has literally just become available. And if the experiment proves the theory, we'll have effectively produced a perpetual motion machine, albeit not a very useful one (at least not with current tech).
 
The experimental concept is fairly simple, but implementing it requires technology that has literally just become available. And if the experiment proves the theory, we'll have effectively produced a perpetual motion machine, albeit not a very useful one (at least not with current tech).

The technology aside, the part that seems plainly obvious to me is "ION IN AN ELECTRICAL FIELD NOT AT GROUND STATE". Of course it will do something, and it will do so given the energy of the system. There seems to be nothing quantum or temporal about that in my mind. Like I said, there has got to be something about this experiment or the write up that I'm just not understanding.

Now if it were something like temporal "energy" imparting itself on the remaining ions in ground state leading to perpetual motion with them or the excited ion being expected to occupy all locations in the lattice simultaneously or something to that nature, then I might be a little more excited about this experiment. But it just doesn't sound like it's doing anything that classical physics wouldn't expect it to do at first glance.
 
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