Zenimax threatens to sue Occulus Rift over VR Tech.

[Anarchist420]

IP Strikes Again!

ip needs to be abolished. given that john carmack was the creator of the tech rather than an institution, i fail to see how IP is anything other than executive statist corporate welfare.

 

[CountZero]

IP Strikes Again!

ip needs to be abolished. given that john carmack was the creator of the tech rather than an institution, i fail to see how IP is anything other than executive statist corporate welfare.

When an engineer works for a company the related things they create belong to that company. If Zenimax let him work on this stuff on company time or with company resources it belongs to the company. If he did it 100% independently it would be a grey area (depends on if it could be considered related to Zenimax or not).

As an engineer if you want to own everything you do you have to start your own company but I'd imagine if you hired an engineer you'd want to own they stuff they created for you, that's common sense.

 

[DaveSimmons]

IP Strikes Again!

ip needs to be abolished. given that john carmack was the creator of the tech rather than an institution, i fail to see how IP is anything other than executive statist corporate welfare.

So, you'd be happy to pay an engineer $100K or more a year to work on projects for another company?

If I pay someone to do something on company time (which is what Zenimax seems to be alleging) then I would expect to own that work.

Occulus is for-profit, Zenimax is for-profit. This is about two companies arguing over who gets the money.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Oh look A420 posting inane stuff. Sad thing is this is a topic that could have had decent discussion otherwise.

 

[xantub]

But from what I understand, they are claiming possession of his knowledge. If he took programs or code from his old job, I would agree, but claiming possession of what someone learned is basically opening the doors to all colleges to sue every company for things their employees learned in class? That's just stupid. As far as I know (which isn't much), if he wrote the code from scratch (even from things he learned in the other company), that should be ok.

 

[Bateluer]

But from what I understand, they are claiming possession of his knowledge. If he took programs or code from his old job, I would agree, but claiming possession of what someone learned is basically opening the doors to all colleges to sue every company for things their employees learned in class? That's just stupid. As far as I know (which isn't much), if he wrote the code from scratch (even from things he learned in the other company), that should be ok.

Pretty much this. There's usually contracts stating that work performed on company time belongs to the company, but it'd be hard to proof that Carmack did any work for Oculus while on ZeniMax's time clock.

This is just going to buy ZeniMax a crap load of negative publicity, especially since they didn't lift a finger until after Oculus's 2Bn USD Facebook buyout.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Zenimax vs Facebook.

LOL.

Zenimax will get bent over by FB right or wrong.

 

[Anarchist420]

When an engineer works for a company the related things they create belong to that company. If Zenimax let him work on this stuff on company time or with company resources it belongs to the company. If he did it 100% independently it would be a grey area (depends on if it could be considered related to Zenimax or not). As an engineer if you want to own everything you do you have to start your own company but I'd imagine if you hired an engineer you'd want to own they stuff they created for you, that's common sense.

first things first, i dont believe in ip. secondly, zenimax didnt create it and just because their resources were used doesnt justify that they own the idea. basically, this is a corporation abusing the ip system and it should now be even more obvious that ip isnt being used for innovation but simply for corporatism

So, you'd be happy to pay an engineer $100K or more a year to work on projects for another company? If I pay someone to do something on company time (which is what Zenimax seems to be alleging) then I would expect to own that work. Occulus is for-profit, Zenimax is for-profit. This is about two companies arguing over who gets the money.

um no. zenimax could've used its resources differently

 

[Bateluer]

Zenimax vs Facebook.

LOL.

Zenimax will get bent over by FB right or wrong.

Facebook came back swinging.

http://www.dailytech.com/Zenimax+Claims+Carmack+Stole+Oculus+VR+Facebook+Barks+Back/article34869.htm

It's unfortunate, but when there's this type of transaction, people come out of the woodwork with ridiculous and absurd claims. We intend to vigorously defend Oculus and its investors to the fullest extent. We are disappointed but not surprised by Zenimax's actions and we will prove that all of its claims are false.

A key reason that John permanently left Zenimax in August of 2013 was that Zenimax prevented John from working on VR, and stopped investing in VR games across the company.

There is not a line of Zenimax code or any of its technology in any Oculus products. Zenimax did not pursue claims against Oculus for IP or technology, Zenimax has never contributed any IP or technology to Oculus, and only after the Facebook deal was announced has Zenimax now made these claims through its lawyers.

Zenimax canceled VR support for Doom 3 BFG when Oculus refused Zenimax's demands for a non-dilutable equity stake in Oculus. Zenimax has never identified any 'stolen' code or technology [in Oculus's open source].

 

[CountZero]

first things first, i dont believe in ip. secondly, zenimax didnt create it and just because their resources were used doesnt justify that they own the idea. basically, this is a corporation abusing the ip system and it should now be even more obvious that ip isnt being used for innovation but simply for corporatism
um no. zenimax could've used its resources differently

You don't believe in IP? What would be the motivation of any company to pay any engineer or, more importantly, any group of engineers when they end result good just walk out of the door? The US IP system has numerous flaws but to not believe in IP is naive.

Right now the fight between Zenimax and OR is basically he said/she said with both sides making the obvious claim that the other side is just wrong. The timing is a little suspect but doesn't seem terribly extreme IMO, it hasn't even been a year since Carmack moved over. The real trick would be proving he brought actual stuff over because if he did he'd have to know to try to hide it not just from Zenimax but from OR.

 

[Rinaun]

Zenimax just dun goofed. This cannot go over well for them.

 

[gsilver]

Hmm...
Taking things learned at one company and applying them at another.

I think that's called "Work experience". Companies tend to not hire people who haven't done that.


Also, Zenimax specifically wanted to move away from VR tech, which was reported to be one of the reasons why John Carmak left in the first place.

 

[norseamd]

You don't believe in IP? What would be the motivation of any company to pay any engineer or, more importantly, any group of engineers when they end result good just walk out of the door? The US IP system has numerous flaws but to not believe in IP is naive. Right now the fight between Zenimax and OR is basically he said/she said with both sides making the obvious claim that the other side is just wrong. The timing is a little suspect but doesn't seem terribly extreme IMO, it hasn't even been a year since Carmack moved over. The real trick would be proving he brought actual stuff over because if he did he'd have to know to try to hide it not just from Zenimax but from OR.

you already said that a company basically owns any human employed by them outright so your opinions are de facto suspect and corrupt and immoral

 

[BladeVenom]

You don't believe in IP? What would be the motivation of any company to pay any engineer or, more importantly, any group of engineers when they end result good just walk out of the door? The US IP system has numerous flaws but to not believe in IP is naive.

AMD and Intel both have cross licensing deals. So to stay ahead they have to spend even more on R&D since their competitor can copy it as soon as it's revealed. They both have to improve their products every year. Neither can sit back for 14 years because of patent protection.

With our current IP laws, where's the incentive for R&D when many times they have to spend more on lawyers and court costs to defend their IP than their IP is even worth?

How many companies are now spending more on lawyers than engineers?

 

[norseamd]

AMD and Intel both have cross licensing deals. So to stay ahead they have to spend even more on R&D since their competitor can copy it as soon as it's revealed. They both have to improve their products every year. Neither can sit back for 14 years because of patent protection. With our current IP laws, where's the incentive for R&D when many times they have to spend more on lawyers and court costs to defend their IP than their IP is even worth? How many companies are now spending more on lawyers than engineers?

exactly

and much of the theoritical research is done at universities and scientific organizations and buildings

 

[MongGrel]

Engineers are bound to their agreements with companies when they are hired even after they move on.

Depends on contracts maybe, but still.

I know of one in particular you have to get permission from it to get independent patents from you have to go through the corporate lawyers to do so or you'd get jumped.

And a few engineers that I know have done that, if it's not approved the corporate lawyers even after leaving are going to go to town on that one on the other company.

 

[Anarchist420]

AMD and Intel both have cross licensing deals. So to stay ahead they have to spend even more on R&D since their competitor can copy it as soon as it's revealed. They both have to improve their products every year. Neither can sit back for 14 years because of patent protection. With our current IP laws, where's the incentive for R&D when many times they have to spend more on lawyers and court costs to defend their IP than their IP is even worth? How many companies are now spending more on lawyers than engineers?

+1. and they spend money on lobbyists too. it all makes ip a barrier to entry for entrepreneurs

exactly and much of the theoritical research is done at universities and scientific organizations and buildings

+1

 

[magomago]

Engineers are bound to their agreements with companies when they are hired even after they move on.

Depends on contracts maybe, but still.

I know of one in particular you have to get permission from it to get independent patents from you have to go through the corporate lawyers to do so or you'd get jumped.

And a few engineers that I know have done that, if it's not approved the corporate lawyers even after leaving are going to go to town on that one on the other company.

From what I understand, if you were a genius engineer, you can go to another competitor, implement the exact same thing so as long as you don't have any documents or data. As long as you rebuild all the code, the data, the expiraments from scratch using your knowledge without violating any existing patents (if they exist), you are perfectly in the clear.

 

[you2]

Depends on your employment contract which somehwat depends on your state of employment. Many high-tec contracts have anti-competitive clause that basically say you can't work for a competitor for 1 year (california dis-allows such clauses). Also you may not take IP without you. It gets a bit sticky when you are the inventor of the 'IP'. So if I work for company A and develop the logic for a product; then go to company B and develop the exact same thing COMPANY A can claim I took their IP. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know the exact legal boundary between IP theft and independent development and to be quite frank I'm not sure judges/jury know the difference either so when these trials occur it seems somewhat of a pot luck which side will win. Just look at the samsung/apple drawn out trials (btw odd that when samsung wins the president steps in).

From what I understand, if you were a genius engineer, you can go to another competitor, implement the exact same thing so as long as you don't have any documents or data. As long as you rebuild all the code, the data, the expiraments from scratch using your knowledge without violating any existing patents (if they exist), you are perfectly in the clear.

 

[splat_ed]

AMD and Intel both have cross licensing deals. So to stay ahead they have to spend even more on R&D since their competitor can copy it as soon as it's revealed. They both have to improve their products every year. Neither can sit back for 14 years because of patent protection.

With our current IP laws, where's the incentive for R&D when many times they have to spend more on lawyers and court costs to defend their IP than their IP is even worth?

How many companies are now spending more on lawyers than engineers?

Actually, this helps save on lawyers by allowing IP that could have conceivably be created at both companies to be not fought over.

IP is a useful concept - if you create something new, then you can protect it and I agree that companies should be able to claim stuff you worked on on their time/money BUT when it comes to stuff you created outside, that should be yours... unfortunately, no-one can prove when the idea came into your head... was it sat in the office, in bed, on the loo? (unless you were stupid enough to leave a paper-trail at work).

Yes, it is a barrier to enterpeneurs, but you just have to find a new/better way of doing something to render the IP moot. This is supposed to stop outright copying!