Zen APUs made by GloFo, 14nm FinFET node, and packaged by Amkor

[Erenhardt]

Here is food for thought: Sony has announced a Playstation 4.5 with graphics capability intended to drive 4k screens and possibly VR headsets.

Chew on that for a moment.

We can reasonably conclude that such a graphics solution will be GCN-based. What CPU/APU will they use to drive a beast like that? How about Raven Ridge?

Now, why wouldn't that system have something like 8 Gb (or more) of HBM2 as unified system/graphics memory? PS4.0 has 8 Gb shared GDDR5. 4.5 might need more for higher resolutions, regardless of whether it uses GDDR5x or HBM/HBM2

Did they announce it?

 

[William Gaatjes]

Did they announce it?

Developers for the ps4 are talking about it that sony is working on a 4k resolution solution. Currently, the ps4 is not powerful enough to render games at 4k resolution.

 

[jpiniero]

Developers for the ps4 are talking about it that sony is working on a 4k resolution solution. Currently, the ps4 is not powerful enough to render games at 4k resolution.

That rumor is fake or deliberately misinterpreted.

 

[Shehriazad]

It doesn't scale with amount, it scales with stacks.

So in a consumer APU we'd be looking at a MAXIMUM of one stack IF they decided to go with it...so bandwidth would be pretty mediocre...just fitting for a low to mid end GPU.


Not saying this hints at it becoming a reality...just saying that this makes it at least seem more plausible.

I think people are trying to disregard HBM because of "lol high bandwidth" even though the bandwidth would never actually be a thing on a consumer APU.

 

[Erenhardt]

HBM apu is a gate for amd to sell their CPUs.

If Carrizo had HBM it would blow doors. But doing it on old process seem not worthy the investment.
Going big with HBM on new node, with new GPU arch, with new CPU arch is a proper way of changing things around. Go big or go home.

 

[William Gaatjes]

That rumor is fake or deliberately misinterpreted.

Could be. I do not know how many people have a 4k television. But i too think that Sony will not go the 4k route until the next iteration of the playstation. Microsoft on the other hand is becoming tired of seeing themselves as the eternal second. I do hope they make the good choice.

 

[jpiniero]

Could be. I do not know how many people have a 4k television. But i too think that Sony will not go the 4k route until the next iteration of the playstation. Microsoft on the other hand is becoming tired of seeing themselves as the eternal second. I do hope they make the good choice.

Microsoft is getting out of consoles. They are going to (try to) console-ize PC gaming instead.

Updating the PS4's APU so it supports UHD BluRay would make sense.

 

[Yuriman]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9969/jedec-publishes-hbm2-specification

If Zen includes a single stack of HBM1, it will have 256MB of HBM1 with a bandwidth of 20GB/s.

For comparison, dual channel DDR4 2133 has a transfer rate of around 30GB/s.

 

[Erenhardt]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9969/jedec-publishes-hbm2-specification

If Zen includes a single stack of HBM1, it will have 256MB of HBM1 with a bandwidth of 20GB/s.

For comparison, dual channel DDR4 2133 has a transfer rate of around 30GB/s.

Right. AMD did some magic making Fury with 4 stacks packing 4GB of 512GB/s HBM1 in it.

 

[Yuriman]

Right. AMD did some magic making Fury with 4 stacks packing 4GB of 512GB/s HBM1 in it.

Ah, sorry, I had a derp moment.

128GB/s per stack, 1GB per stack.

For comparison, 250x / HD7790 has ~104GB/s. So, a single stack should be just about right to feed a ~1024 shader part.

 

[Erenhardt]

Ah, sorry, I had a derp moment.

128GB/s per stack, 1GB per stack.

For comparison, 250x / HD7790 has ~104GB/s. So, a single stack should be just about right to feed a ~1024 shader part.

Correct.

You would want to have 2 stacks, in case one goes bad in the assembly, you can still sell it as cut down version
HBM APU:
125W-140W TDP
4 Zen cores @35-65 W TDP
GCN GPU @60-100W TDP
2GB HBM@208GB/s =2 stacks

60-100W for IGP is quite a neat little GPU level. Entry to lower mainstream. Something along mentioned 7790 and 7850. But with new 14nm and GCN2.0 more than 2 times faster.

The only issue here is 2GB memory. While enough for most people, not really recommended as of late.

Economics behind this APU

Equivalent CPU (i3) is $120
Equivalent GPU (7790 2GB) $150 at release

HBM apu of this kind could have MSRP around $200-250 as a cheaper alternative to CPU+GPU combo.
Compared to what $173 A10-7850k offered at release, HBM APU would make a hell of a system in a contrast for not much more.

So, would $30-70 be enough to integrate 2 stacks of HBM1 for an APU?
I don't believe HBM for fury (4 stacks) costed more than $150... way less

 

[Tuna-Fish]

GDDR5 power usage depends a lot on the speed.

Unsurprisingly, this is also true for HBM. However, for any given level of bandwidth, the power usage is much lower than GDDR5, simply because the total capacitance of the lines between the memory controller and the ram is so much lower.

 

[ShintaiDK]

HBM costs enough for AMD to avoid it on any non flagship parts. And Polaris wont have it either.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Euhm...doesn't the speed of HBM directly scale with amount? So wouldn't 1 Gig have only like 128gbps and 2 Gig 256gbps. (HBM gen 1)

Respectively that would fit 950 and 960 just right in terms of bandwidth.

P.s. please correct me if I misunderstood how HBM works.

I am certainly no technical expert on HBM. The question is, if they can use HBM for the graphics memory and conventional memory for the rest of the memory pool, sort of like the e-dram for iris pro. If so that makes HBM a lot more practical. I would assume this could be done somehow, but if it is practical to do and how much performance loss it would cause I have no idea.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Unsurprisingly, this is also true for HBM. However, for any given level of bandwidth, the power usage is much lower than GDDR5, simply because the total capacitance of the lines between the memory controller and the ram is so much lower.

But not at the same rate. This is also why DDR4 is king.

 

[Silverforce11]

Now we would only need some indication that Zen APUs will actually use HBM(2), which IMO is extremely unlikely in consumer class products at least... Otherwise this is just more made up "news".

Consumer CPUs from Intel have no issues being $400 to $1,000.

Consumer GPUs from NVIDIA and AMD have also been priced very high.

AMD already stated their plans for server APUs in the ~200W range. IIRC, HBM2 was also mentioned.

It won't be cheap, but as long as performance is there, why not?

Zen + Polaris 10 APU with 8/16GB HBM2. Assuming Polaris 10 delivers Fury X performance class, that is a very compelling APU for many system builders, and would dominate mITX segment. Add to this the option of Hybrid XDMA CF for DX11, and Multi-GPU for DX12, I would pay a lot for such an APU.

People are stuck in the mindset, AMD APU must be low-end and priced low. No. If Zen cores deliver 40%+ IPC over Excavator, we're talking serious CPU performance. Thus it becomes a premium CPU in and of itself.

 

[Erenhardt]

Correct.

You would want to have 2 stacks, in case one goes bad in the assembly, you can still sell it as cut down version
HBM APU:
125W-140W TDP
4 Zen cores @35-65 W TDP
GCN GPU @60-100W TDP
2GB HBM@208GB/s =2 stacks

60-100W for IGP is quite a neat little GPU level. Entry to lower mainstream. Something along mentioned 7790 and 7850. But with new 14nm and GCN2.0 more than 2 times faster.

The only issue here is 2GB memory. While enough for most people, not really recommended as of late.

Economics behind this APU

Equivalent CPU (i3) is $120
Equivalent GPU (7790 2GB) $150 at release

HBM apu of this kind could have MSRP around $200-250 as a cheaper alternative to CPU+GPU combo.
Compared to what $173 A10-7850k offered at release, HBM APU would make a hell of a system in a contrast for not much more.

So, would $30-70 be enough to integrate 2 stacks of HBM1 for an APU?
I don't believe HBM for fury (4 stacks) costed more than $150... way less

Actually, Zen APU will not be released until HBM2 enters mass production
Change 2 stacks of 4Hi HBM1 into 1 stack of 2Hi HBM2 for the same 2GB of memory.

1 stack of regular (4Hi) HBM2 gives 4GB of 256GB/s memory! Surly it can't be that expensive

 

[cbn]

There are several types of systems which would substantially benefit from a Zen APU with HBM2. Next-generation consoles are the most obvious, but in addition to that, consider all of the following:

• High-end laptops that currently use dGPUs
• Retina iMac (the 27-inch model is currently available only with a dGPU)
• Small form factor gaming PCs

Keep in mind that an APU with HBM2 can take the place of a CPU, dGPU, and separate RAM for both. OEMs also get the benefit of smaller PCBs with less routing and placing needed. Thus, even if the price is relatively high, it may still be cheaper than the equivalent alternative with separate components, and will still get OEM design wins.

And I am wondering if AMD can even put stacked NAND and Wifi on the interposer as well?

But I also wonder how much heat stacked NAND and Wifi can handle while being so close to the CPU and GPU cores?

 

[JDG1980]

HBM costs enough for AMD to avoid it on any non flagship parts. And Polaris wont have it either.

Agreed, we won't see it on low-priced parts for another couple years. But there is no inherent reason why an APU can't be a flagship-grade part. Intel sells Iris Pro at a substantial premium, and there are enough design wins to make that viable. AMD hasn't done premium APUs yet because their current CPUs suck too bad to make it viable. But if Zen is competitive on that front, then AMD gains the ability to offer something that neither Intel nor Nvidia can do. I think Apple would love a single-package solution for the Retina iMac if it had enough CPU and GPU power to get the job done.

 

[cbn]

Yep, I dont see the cost structure work out.

Perhaps if having two smaller dies (CPU SoC die and GPU die) vs. one large "one size fits all die" allows better yields or advantages in mix and match binning it could help justify the cost of the interposer for consumer APUs?

 

[Silverforce11]

Agreed, we won't see it on low-priced parts for another couple years. But there is no inherent reason why an APU can't be a flagship-grade part. Intel sells Iris Pro at a substantial premium, and there are enough design wins to make that viable. AMD hasn't done premium APUs yet because their current CPUs suck too bad to make it viable. But if Zen is competitive on that front, then AMD gains the ability to offer something that neither Intel nor Nvidia can do. I think Apple would love a single-package solution for the Retina iMac if it had enough CPU and GPU power to get the job done.

Exactly.

AMD's APU has no option for premium currently. CPU is weak. GPU cannot be strong due to reliance on system ram, severely bottle-necked and so even a large iGPU will operate like a tiny one.

HBM2 solves their problems, fully and more. Zen will take care of the CPU side of things.

Polaris 10 is potentially 100W, add the 8 core Zen, 95W, we're talking <200W TDP combined, for a great APU that delivers excellent PC gaming and work-station performance.

Let's put it this way, would you, a gamer buy a 8 Core Broadwell, like 5960X (8 core part on 14FF is a very small chip), with an iGPU of Polaris 10 (~Fury X performance) class with 8GB HBM2?

How much would you be willing to pay for such an APU? $650? $799?

There's obviously a market for Intel's 6/8C CPUs and they aren't exactly cheap. Zen just needs to deliver on IPC and AMD can make premium APUs a reality.

 

[cbn]

Exactly.

AMD's APU has no option for premium currently. CPU is weak. GPU cannot be strong due to reliance on system ram, severely bottle-necked and so even a large iGPU will operate like a tiny one.

HBM2 solves their problems, fully and more. Zen will take care of the CPU side of things.

Polaris 10 is potentially 100W, add the 8 core Zen, 95W, we're talking <200W TDP combined, for a great APU that delivers excellent PC gaming and work-station performance.

Let's put it this way, would you, a gamer buy a 8 Core Broadwell, like 5960X (8 core part on 14FF is a very small chip), with an iGPU of Polaris 10 (~Fury X performance) class with 8GB HBM2?

How much would you be willing to pay for such an APU? $650? $799?

There's obviously a market for Intel's 6/8C CPUs and they aren't exactly cheap. Zen just needs to deliver on IPC and AMD can make premium APUs a reality.

I think that price is too high for a desktop.

For a high powered laptop like Razor blade (shown below) the combined TDP of the CPU and dGPU has been up around 140W (2014 model).....but has some cooling problems.

Perhaps with a more compact CPU and GPU arrangement in the form of an interposer APU bigger fans could be used making 140W more liveable?

But 200W APU (with price premium for the integration)....I think that only probably works well in a server rack.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Did they announce it?

http://kotaku.com/sources-sony-is-working-on-a-ps4-5-1765723053

That's all there is thus far.

 

[Silverforce11]

I think that price is too high for a desktop.

Intel's E series 6 and 8 core CPUs sell for high prices and it lacks any iGPU.

If it had Fury X performance iGPU onboard, it would excel for many OpenCL apps, and can be hybrid CF for games or DX12 multi-adapter makes it an even more compelling deal as it will add performance to a dGPU setup.

A cheaper version will be 4 Zen Cores + Polaris 11, total package around 95W, offering an APU with a characteristics of ~6700K + 380X graphics performance.

Downclocked for a mobile version, and you still get an APU with a lot of performance.

Basically Zen and HBM2 tech gives AMD so many options that were just not possible with their weaker CPU and reliance on system ram for the iGPU.

 

[cbn]

A cheaper version will be 4 Zen Cores + Polaris 11, total package around 95W, offering an APU with a characteristics of ~6700K + 380X graphics performance.

Isn't Polaris 11 the card that at around ~50W yields GTX 950 performance?

GTX 950 is roughly equal to R9 270/270X.

As far as the remainder of TDP goes (95W - ~ 50W = 45W), I think CPU performance would be much lower than i7 6700K.