Where there is a will, there is a way. If Intel is serious about clawing back lost marketshare, they will do it. There is no other choice.
Win2012R2
Golden Member
- Dec 5, 2024
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Intel is in "managed decline" state which will become unmanageable once AMD grabs another 15%+ of market share (by money, not units), plus AMD will have juicy "AI" income, until the bubble bursts at least, which is probably a little further than a galaxy far far away ...
I for one am assuming that they will attack the problem from the perspective of folks who know their trade. Why am I saying that? Just recently, they took their processors and swapped semi-wide cores (Zen 4) out for quite wider cores (Zen 5) but kept the IFOP and IOD. (As far as desktop is concerned.) That's the part which everybody noticed. But they did more. Fatter cores --> more data traffic --> what happens if data traffic increases through a given fabric? Right: Latency tanks... if you do nothing about it. However, they apparently actually did something about it, although almost nobody took note. :-)
Also, I read a story somewhere that they received complaints about lackluster latency figures in a popular memory benchmark. So they implemented a BIOS option as a concession to these complainers which alters prefetcher policy or something, such that the benchmark figures look nicer... while realworld workloads tend to regress when this option is enabled. So, maybe what we want is good latency, not least latency just for least latency's sake?
AMD make central processors, graphics processors, FPGAs, recently they dabble in networking I think — I don't see them becoming a DRAM/MRAM/xyzRAM developer in addition. :-) Rather, I think that they will stick a little longer with the old recipe of adding a little SRAM into the memory hierarchy as a means to deal with DRAM latency.
Nope. They will use N2 for desktop, server and laptop replacement. Mainstream mobile is N3 class.
adroc_thurston
Diamond Member
- Jul 2, 2023
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that's not the problem.
2.5D slabs just don't do anything by themselves.
that's not how any of that works, kiddo.
this ain't battle shounen, you're not gonna just will your way thru fabric topologies.
Intel has been doing advanced packaging and multi chip modules since Lakefield in 2019 and more primitively in Kaby Lake G. There's no excuse for Intel to be whiffing this badly by this point
adroc_thurston
Diamond Member
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I'm sure there were some before the original Pentium Pro 30 years ago, but Intel was certainly the first who did it economically enough for the mass market.
Yes there was a comparison
Hot Chips 34 – Intel’s Meteor Lake Chiplets, Compared to AMD’s
During a presentation at Hot Chips 34, Intel detailed how their upcoming Meteor Lake processors employ chiplets.
chipsandcheese.com
There is no point on going on a tangent that is almost certainly not going to happen.
Mobile is where the greatest need is, for AMD, to gain competitive advantage. I don't see anything in the leaks that would accomplish that.
Whole mobile CPU on N2 is a non-starter due to cost.
What one of the leaks showed was an N3p monolithic chip with some LP cores, few full, few dense cores that would then attach to the big N2 12 core chiplet. Which would be the Medusa Point mobile CPU.
Which would leave the monolithic chip alone for some lower end segments. Which is a good re-use of chiplet, but maybe not exactly the silver bullet AMD needs in mobile.
We have another AMD quarter behind us (since we addressed this subject), and the 2 AMD leading ladies on the call were again all giddy about the sky high ASPs and market share gains in desktop.
Zero reason to reverse the strategy, that lead them to insurmountable lead against Intel. If anything, I could see them doubling down on the strategy.
Which I would foresee as:
9600x3d, 9800x3d low to mid range
Zen 6 N2 12 cores V-Cache premium
non-V-Cache entry level
Which would leave Intel only with big / expensive bLLC as a competitive chip and everything else would be uncompetitive. Including all of the Intel fabbed deskto CPUs.
Yes there was a comparison
The IO density/power characteristics are superior sadly don't have actual bandwidth figureHot Chips 34 – Intel’s Meteor Lake Chiplets, Compared to AMD’s
During a presentation at Hot Chips 34, Intel detailed how their upcoming Meteor Lake processors employ chiplets.
View attachment 128955
Sorry, I got the acronyms crossed.
You were talking about IFOP - Infinity Fabric on Package
while I thought you were comparing Foveros with InFO - Integrated FanOut
Which is what my reply addressed.
Imagine an L3 race between AMD and Intel, where AMD is adds a layer of V-Cache while Intel has to respin an N2 die.
That would be some glorious trolling AMD could do.
Nah. They could've done so much more to absolutely crush Intel. They have a philosophy of co-existence and I think it's because they are not confident that they can be the sole torchbearer for x86. They need to get to 80% marketshare before they can justify the R&D expense that responsibility would entail. So they are just letting Intel suffer just enough to increase their marketshare gradually and incrementally. They don't suddenly want Intel's volume because they are not equipped to handle it.
adroc_thurston
Diamond Member
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Intel doesn't have the budget for anything and the second layer won't do anything.
You can't force a race with ~nothing.
fastandfurious6
Senior member
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The FineWine™️secret layers will be the Trump card that will win the war... AMD never miss 🎯
That's the trolling aspect of it. Intel does not have money to redesign the die, it would be terribly expensive.
And when Intel thought they caught up with AMD in L3 Lisa - I mean Lucy goes:
Last edited:
If you think AMD is holding back to keep Intel alive - no. AMD actually lost share in mobile last quarter to Intel (in units)
AMD is already spending om client R&D at the level to cover all of the market. But AMD has not penetrated the Intel-OEM lock. And really, has not offered a product in mobile that would convince OEM that it is so good they can leave Intel behind and switch to AMD.
So why not try trolling?
They are going for profit over market penetration. It's like they don't think they can continue to make great products so may as well make as much money as possible. Prime example is not changing the IOD for Zen 5 for DDR5-8000 1:1 RAM speeds. Also, no Strix Halo with quad channel DDR5-8000 for desktop. They can certainly do a lot better but they are more occupied with making money and playing it safe rather than making a serious effort to drive Intel out of the market with products that Intel has no hope of beating.
fastandfurious6
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We don't have any indication that Zen 6 will be anything more than 15% ST and maybe 40% MT. Meanwhile, Intel is bringing core spam to the party with Nova Lake. Even if Intel messes up the ST performance, they still end up being competitive in the MT department with real threads instead of virtual ones. That's not what the market wants. What the market really wants is
1) Intel being forced to bring out an expensive to manufacture CPU that beats Zen 6 decisively, at least in MT and approaching HEDT performance of Threadripper.
2) Intel being forced to sell their lower performing CPUs at a hefty discount compared to Zen 6.
No.1 compels AMD to strike back with more power in whatever way they deem necessary.
No.2 forces AMD to respond in kind and get into a serious price war.
We, the consumers, watch with glee and eat popcorn and enjoy better, cheaper CPUs.
The upcoming face-off between Zen 6 and Nova Lake seems to be more of the same. Boring status quo. Nothing exciting.
Competition needs to heat up.
DrMrLordX
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And Meteor Lake (and Arrow Lake-U, presumably). And Lakefield. There seems to be a recurring problem here . . . in any case, it's hard to see how they can compete with Zen6 when they keep pushing inadequate chiplet designs.
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