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Question Zen 6 Speculation Thread

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Those are fake numbers for design costs.
Like they're not real, this (wrongly) assumed the vendor does everything in house. Which no one does.
Back in 2014-2015 an AMD rep said that the cost of a CPU design was about 300M$, so a 700M$ figure 10 years later sound right.

FI if it took 3.5 years to design Zen 5 with 2000 enginers then the cost of salaries/year is roughly 200M$ and 700M$ for 3.5 years.
 
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Even if we take your design cost numbers as gospel (which I don't, as adroc points out that makes non real world assumptions) you're talking a few hundred million dollars divided across all the chips. How many Zen 6 CPUs will AMD ship in total? Sounds like a couple bucks per CPU, which again is inflated because we're using those bogus IBS numbers.
There is R&D marketing and othe things as well it's not like they have milked the design as of now also advanced packing I think Zen6 will have it so it will increase cost as well.
After selling a good amount of Chips they will get break even and after that the only cost will be cost to manufacture but initially it's going to be higher.
Intel for all it's worth are milking Golden Cove like no end 😂
As for the wafer cost figures, remember I did say quite clearly I was making up numbers so the math was easy/clear, but it doesn't affect my point. You might as well point out that Zen 6 dies won't all be 100mm^2 while you're at it...
Yeah I know the die won't be ~100 mm2 I expect 70-85mm2
 
Ah right, your whole argument this time has been about the word delay. Fair enough.

Glad we agreed in the end that a hypothetical launch of X3D chips available from the start would mean a later theoretical launch than if they didn't launch x3D chips at the start. The only way to do this is to launch ( I used the word delay) the lunch of non X3D chips.

You're right, it does mean unsold inventory and it does mean a delay in revenues. Both quite unpalatable.

It doesn't have to be either.

Suppose regular chip takes 2 months to complete and X3D takes 3 months. It can just mean that you start producing X3D at T - 3 months and regular at T - 2 months.

Or in other words, the first chips that come out (at wafer start + 2 months) as regular CPUs, send them to X3D conversion.

A month later, you will have chips coming out as both regular and X3D, and you can launch. No delay in revenue, no unnecessary inventory.
 
Means the margins are obscene because the volume is tiny.

No it means the volume is tiny.

I don't think it is so tiny. Suppose AMD sells 500,000 boxed CPUs worldwide per month at $250 ASP.

that is $125 million per month or $375 million per quarter.

Of the current AMD client revenue of $2.3 billion, it may not be a huge fraction, but if you go back to the recent low of $739 client revenue (when Intel was dumping chips, stuffing the channel) just 2 years ago, in Q1 2023, it is not a trivial number.

You can't just scale hybrid bonding capacity 10 times, that's a ton of equipment.

Yes, you can!

Just place a large order with TSMC, and like magic, it happens some time down the line.

AMD has been bitten so many times that they are afraid to go out on the limb and anticipate success and place larger orders.
 
The cost premium to add V-Cache can be somewhere between $10 and $20 (including packaging)
So it's that cheap, meaning it can't be too slow and expanding capacity can't be too expensive.
AMD has been bitten so many times that they are afraid to go out on the limb and anticipate success and place larger orders.
Exactly - even with the highly desirable line like X3Ds - they are just waiting for Intel to launch a competitor next year
 
What is your estimate of annual 9800X3D sales?

9800X - $479 (MSRP)
9700X - $359 (MSRP)


Which one will sell better?



Let's say scale it 2 times, what's your estimate of the cost - $1 bln? $5 bln? $10 bln?
It's TSMC that would be increasing the capacity and they probably don't want to risk a large, sudden increase due to the fact AMD is their only customer using SoIC-X.
 
It's TSMC that would be increasing the capacity and they probably don't want to risk a large, sudden increase due to the fact AMD is their only customer using SoIC-X.
AMD is a more privilege customer to TSMC than Intel though and is behind only Apple and Nvidia.
 
It's TSMC that would be increasing the capacity and they probably don't want to risk a large, sudden increase due to the fact AMD is their only customer using SoIC-X.

I came across an article that said Apple may be using SoIC-X in not too distant future. But the article was not clear if it is the same implementation as AMD or different.
 
It doesn't have to be either.

Suppose regular chip takes 2 months to complete and X3D takes 3 months. It can just mean that you start producing X3D at T - 3 months and regular at T - 2 months.

Or in other words, the first chips that come out (at wafer start + 2 months) as regular CPUs, send them to X3D conversion.

A month later, you will have chips coming out as both regular and X3D, and you can launch. No delay in revenue, no unnecessary inventory.
How are we having this chat?

I'm not saying you can't launch both at the same time, but the theoretical time you can do that is later than the theoretical time you launch without X3D because the process takes time. It's that simple.

Using your terminology. If T is the time the first that non-xcd chips can launch. While I don't agree with your lengths of time for each process I'll use them to make this easy. First batch in production starts at T-2. Second batch at T-1. First batch ready at T. You launch. It you now have to add x3D that first batch is ready at T+1 and is ready alongside the second batch ton be sold also at T+1.

You can't just hand wave this away in the way I think you dis in your response and start everything earlier. You can't just make the design process quicker so you can launch both at time T.

The length of time you have a delay (vs what you could have launched at) is the length of time it takes to process the x3D chips from a non x3D chip. In this example, one month.

This also assumes away the lower capacity of making x3D. Which means you need lots more time before you can launch both. It won't happen until there is lots and lots of packaging capacity, capacity that isn't available to AMD to my knowledge.
 
It doesn't have to be either.

Suppose regular chip takes 2 months to complete and X3D takes 3 months. It can just mean that you start producing X3D at T - 3 months and regular at T - 2 months.

Or in other words, the first chips that come out (at wafer start + 2 months) as regular CPUs, send them to X3D conversion.

A month later, you will have chips coming out as both regular and X3D, and you can launch. No delay in revenue, no unnecessary inventory.

... Do you think they only start the production of the regular chips after a month of twiddling their thumbs?

None of the timelines have any slack in them. If they could do what you claim, they would also start the production of the regular chips a month earlier for getting to market one month faster.
 
Using your terminology. If T is the time the first that non-xcd chips can launch. While I don't agree with your lengths of time for each process I'll use them to make this easy. First batch in production starts at T-2. Second batch at T-1. First batch ready at T. You launch. It you now have to add x3D that first batch is ready at T+1 and is ready alongside the second batch ton be sold also at T+1.
Agreed. I wanted to add that I highly doubt AMD would go X3D cache-only any time soon, even on premium chiplet CPUs. There is still a pretty large market for non-X3D cache variants, and they are cheaper to make.

One thing that has always bothered me about X3D is that the large L3 cache ends up a bit unbalanced compared to the L2 cache.

What I personally hope AMD does is:

Redesign the entire cache layout (probably not before Zen 7, which I hope is a new architecture entirely).

Anyway, in my "wet dream" scenario, Zen 7 has:
  1. A Larger L1d (which is doable even with 4K pages, according to Mike Clark)
  2. Shared L2 (Apple and Qualcomm have shown you can do this with a manageable latency penalty: ~5ns vs ~2.5ns for 16x the size, original source)
  3. And no L3 cache at all on the main CCD; only X3D chips have bolted-on L3 cache.

The Strix Point mobile CPUs currently have 12 cores (4P+8E). They have 12MB of L2 cache and an additional 24MB of L3 cache (16MB + 8MB, separated between the big and small core clusters). This seems like a somewhat wasteful use of 32MB of SRAM. IMO, it would be much more elegant to create a 12-Core CCD with 36MB (or even 48MB) of shared L2 cache, using 3MB (or 4MB) banks per core. For a laptop chip, at least.

The added benefit would be that they could put the entire L3 cache onto the X3D chiplets and potentially even stack multiple of these on top of each other. (Actually, Milan-X reportedly had a BIOS option for this, though it never ended up in final products).
 
I came across an article that said Apple may be using SoIC-X in not too distant future. But the article was not clear if it is the same implementation as AMD or different.

I would bet that if Apple is using SoIC-X it wouldn't be stack a simple cache chip on top like AMD but to stack full SoCs for e.g. making Ultras. So it would probably differ from the flavor AMD is using in some ways since it is more complex end product.
 
How are we having this chat?

I'm not saying you can't launch both at the same time, but the theoretical time you can do that is later than the theoretical time you launch without X3D because the process takes time. It's that simple.

It seems, from the marketing POV, there is a great value in introducing the new generation of the product by launching the strongest product first. Good impression from that initial introduction improves the sales of lower tier products of the same generation.

In case of AMD, X3D products are those strongest products.

Earlier time of introduction of a weaker product seems to have minimum to negative value.
Cases in point:
- Zen 4, non-X3D
- Zen 5, non-X3D

They sold almost nothing, did not make it to Top 5 or Top 10 products sold.

In short, launching a weak product early generated very little in terms of financial return and generated negative PR for the new generation.

Using your terminology. If T is the time the first that non-xcd chips can launch. While I don't agree with your lengths of time for each process I'll use them to make this easy. First batch in production starts at T-2. Second batch at T-1. First batch ready at T. You launch. It you now have to add x3D that first batch is ready at T+1 and is ready alongside the second batch ton be sold also at T+1.

That's correct. But I don't think the "+1" is a problem.

If you take into account PR, mindshare - these are more important than a month or two months of sales of new generation.

You can't just hand wave this away in the way I think you dis in your response and start everything earlier. You can't just make the design process quicker so you can launch both at time T.

You also can't wave away the reality of PR, marketing, and how the "generations" work these days.

In the past, Intel could launch a "Pentium 100" and even if it wasn't overwhelmingly better, people knew there would be 133, 166, 200, 250 MHz.

In that, past reality, your argument is sound. But it doesn't work that way any more.

The length of time you have a delay (vs what you could have launched at) is the length of time it takes to process the x3D chips from a non x3D chip. In this example, one month.

This also assumes away the lower capacity of making x3D. Which means you need lots more time before you can launch both. It won't happen until there is lots and lots of packaging capacity, capacity that isn't available to AMD to my knowledge.

Launching top end product before full availability is also not a big problem. In fact, the way human psychology works, it may be even better. It is better to have more people looking to buy your product than to have more product than people want to buy.

It creates more pent-up demand and assures good sales for months (and years) to come.

And a big one on top of that: no discounts
 
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It seems, from the marketing POV, there is a great value in introducing the new generation of the product by launching the strongest product first. Good impression from that initial introduction improves the sales of lower tier products of the same generation.

In case of AMD, X3D products are those strongest products.

Earlier time of introduction of a weaker product seems to have minimum to negative value.
Cases in point:
- Zen 4, non-X3D
- Zen 5, non-X3D

Zen4, really ?
You memory might be a bit defective, IMO.
 
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