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Your thoughts on God

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irishScott said:
A point which I never denied. I never said there was no difference, I said there was essentially no difference on a fundamental level. Specifically the level that underlies the logic and the theism, respectively.

The evidence for my argument comes from experience and simple insight, but to each his own. Your arguments are hilariously (because you deny it) similar to many Theist arguments in their general structure and nature. Just a different implementation of the same thing.

Know thyself Sandorski. You are more than your logic. 🙂
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What "fundamental level"? It does not require Faith to do or to expect the normal everyday occurrence to occur.
 
sandorski said:
What "fundamental level"? It does not require Faith to do or to expect the normal everyday occurrence to occur.
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To some degree, yes it does. I've explained my views rather clearly about 8 different ways with several analogies.

If you're not trolling at this point (and I'm suspicious, you have a history in this forum of sticking to points you've been proven wrong on and ignoring arguments for no apparent reason), I doubt a 9th is going to make any difference.

If you have been trolling, who cares? That just makes you flat and your counter-arguments bunk. This isn't P&N, arguments are the standard here, and so are counter-arguments. You've yet to address my argument in any way other than saying "no, that's wrong". And more often than not you've done nothing but erect straw-men, which I interpreted as innocent misinterpretation up to this point.
 
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irishScott said:
To some degree, yes it does. I've explained my views rather clearly about 8 different ways with several analogies.

If you're not trolling at this point (and I'm suspicious, you have a history in this forum of sticking to points you've been proven wrong on and ignoring arguments for no apparent reason), I doubt a 9th is going to make any difference.

If you have been trolling, who cares? That just makes you flat and your counter-arguments bunk. This isn't P&N, arguments are the standard here, and so are counter-arguments. You've yet to address my argument in any way other than saying "no, that's wrong". And more often than not you've done nothing but erect straw-men, which I interpreted as innocent misinterpretation up to this point.
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lol, your stealing my thoughts, almost exactly. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I just can't accept your argument.
 
Gee.... "Your thoughts on God" seems to be a topic destined to be saturated with a scientific versus a faith dialog.

My brain labors under the genetic consequence of surviving the Savannah and escaping lions and such thousands of years ago so I'm left with the notion that what can't or hasn't been disproved is possible. It seems to me that all of science deals with probability.... nothing is certain but some things are highly probable... and highly improbable and everything in between.
I assume the OP means the one Christians and Jews and Islam believe in and not Zeus or one of the thousand others accepted historically....

So.... I have to contain my thoughts to the faith based dialog. And within that the theist versus the deist. It seems easy to be a deist and proclaim there may be an entity responsible for all that is while it is quite hard to proclaim that there is a personal savior named Jesus (confining to Christianity) who appeared to some bronze age illiterate folks in the arm pit of humanity. But, there it is... Somewhere within us all there must exist a place that gets touched by the notion of something wonderful... to some it may be finding a quarter or winning the lottery and to others it might be the finding of comfort in a belief so unsupportable by rational standards that it transcends the scorn delivered by those who prefer the lottery, etc.
That faith based belief does not make anyone more moral or in any way a better person but it sure must do something to the individual... maybe excepting some places in the South... ()🙂 That something wonderful that occurs to the believer can't be supported by evidence but it ought to be supported by what this Jesus taught.... IF it is not observable to another by the deeds of the holder... well... there it is....

What do I personally believe?.... For extremely large values of three.... three plus three equals seven.
 
AViking said:
The real question to be asked is "Why do we need a God?"
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Pretty much as Marxx said it. Anyway it probably makes your life easier by belling in fairy tales like god and heaven. The actual reality, that there is nothing after death and eventually the sun, earth and the whole universe cease to exist isn't a very nice and comforting outlook.

I would probably be happier if I believed like a heroin junkie is happier when being high. Doesn't make the high any more real even though it feels great.

brandonb said:
This is how my priest explains it to me. I'm catholic.

1) God is perfect. Perfect love. Not light. But love.
2) The opposite of God is Satan. Perfect selfishness. Not darkness. But selfishness.
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Selfish = it is good for me

I like being liked by my friends. So for me therefore is selfish to be nice to my friends because it helps me.

This selfishness thingy is just idiotic. Good for me doesn't mean it's bad for someone else. It only works if the selfish person is already mentally ill like a narcissist or the standard psychopath.
 
LunarRay said:
Gee.... "Your thoughts on God" seems to be a topic destined to be saturated with a scientific versus a faith dialog.

My brain labors under the genetic consequence of surviving the Savannah and escaping lions and such thousands of years ago so I'm left with the notion that what can't or hasn't been disproved is possible. It seems to me that all of science deals with probability.... nothing is certain but some things are highly probable... and highly improbable and everything in between.
I assume the OP means the one Christians and Jews and Islam believe in and not Zeus or one of the thousand others accepted historically....

So.... I have to contain my thoughts to the faith based dialog. And within that the theist versus the deist. It seems easy to be a deist and proclaim there may be an entity responsible for all that is while it is quite hard to proclaim that there is a personal savior named Jesus (confining to Christianity) who appeared to some bronze age illiterate folks in the arm pit of humanity. But, there it is... Somewhere within us all there must exist a place that gets touched by the notion of something wonderful... to some it may be finding a quarter or winning the lottery and to others it might be the finding of comfort in a belief so unsupportable by rational standards that it transcends the scorn delivered by those who prefer the lottery, etc.
That faith based belief does not make anyone more moral or in any way a better person but it sure must do something to the individual... maybe excepting some places in the South... ()🙂 That something wonderful that occurs to the believer can't be supported by evidence but it ought to be supported by what this Jesus taught.... IF it is not observable to another by the deeds of the holder... well... there it is....

What do I personally believe?.... For extremely large values of three.... three plus three equals seven.
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I've noticed that counting to seven is one thing but rising an octave quite another. There are two points along the way that some sort of discontinuity or something appears, hence the need for black keys. Perhaps it is there that the large values reside.
 
Moonbeam said:
I've noticed that counting to seven is one thing but rising an octave quite another. There are two points along the way that some sort of discontinuity or something appears, hence the need for black keys. Perhaps it is there that the large values reside.
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Hehehehehehe,

Of the other few who understand what we both meant and the mystery that surrounds the notion it would seem that understanding provides a key to the greater reality or the door to the abyss....
 
I find Alan Watts (not Alan Watt) interesting, but I can't help but call BS on the whole, "we are all god playing a game with ourselves" thing. That's an interesting idea, but of course my BS meter goes absolutely crazy and it ruins all the fun for me. I'm a skeptic now and there's probably no going back. Once a cucumber has been pickled, there's no going back to being a cucumber I suppose.
Its like realizing that I made a gigantic mistake when I was a theist and can't bring myself to be deluded again or allow it to happen. Sometimes BS is just BS. Simple as that.
 
moonbogg said:
I find Alan Watts (not Alan Watt) interesting, but I can't help but call BS on the whole, "we are all god playing a game with ourselves" thing. That's an interesting idea, but of course my BS meter goes absolutely crazy and it ruins all the fun for me. I'm a skeptic now and there's probably no going back. Once a cucumber has been pickled, there's no going back to being a cucumber I suppose.
Its like realizing that I made a gigantic mistake when I was a theist and can't bring myself to be deluded again or allow it to happen. Sometimes BS is just BS. Simple as that.
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There is faith before questions and doubt that answers to those questions can be demonstrated with scientific evidence. This god of faith and doubt does not exist. The God that does exist is known via a third way, the science of the experience of states. There are two kinds of certainty, the certainty of fanaticism and the certainty of love.
 
Moonbeam said:
There is faith before questions and doubt that answers to those questions can be demonstrated with scientific evidence. This god of faith and doubt does not exist. The God that does exist is known via a third way, the science of the experience of states. There are two kinds of certainty, the certainty of fanaticism and the certainty of love.
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When love is certain it is fanaticism.
 
moonbogg said:
I'm a skeptic now and there's probably no going back. Once a cucumber has been pickled, there's no going back to being a cucumber I suppose.
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A fickle belief swinging to the opposite is as likely to swing back, until you have something which is more profound holding you to one, until that in turn is also exhausted because it is also essentially unsubstantial.

Lack of belief may be less unsubstantial than a dumb belief, but as it is defined essentially by what it is not, an absence, it is also ultimately not a stable position.
 
OK, so some people think that consciousness itself is god, or the sense of self, or "I-ness" is god. I say that's fine, but consciousness, therefore god, depends on complex physical arrangements as far as anyone can tell. So, does anyone here think that consciousness is god?
 
moonbogg said:
OK, so some people think that consciousness itself is god, or the sense of self, or "I-ness" is god. I say that's fine, but consciousness, therefore god, depends on complex physical arrangements as far as anyone can tell. So, does anyone here think that consciousness is god?
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Gnostic heresy tries to sell the same lie about God. Pretty much tries to redefine the meaning of the word. Have to pin down the definition before discussing issues.


God is much greater than mere consciousness.
 
Pray To Jesus said:
Gnostic heresy tries to sell the same lie about God. Pretty much tries to redefine the meaning of the word. Have to pin down the definition before discussing issues.


God is much greater than mere consciousness.
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Is it normal to feel kind of like you are going a little insane trying to figure out WTF is going on regarding this topic? I mean, I get the whole thing. We are here, we don't know how or why and so we suspect there is a god but that isn't always a satisfying answer. I think I'm screwed with this one. I'll die long before an answer is found, and if the answer only comes to those who are smart enough or enlightened enough to figure it out, then I'm still screwed.
Also, why do I seem to care so much? Should it matter to a creature like myself? I'm here, I eat and poop and screw around a little bit, and then I die. Why should I care? Why DO I care?
 
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Pray To Jesus said:
Gnostic heresy tries to sell the same lie about God. Pretty much tries to redefine the meaning of the word. Have to pin down the definition before discussing issues.


God is much greater than mere consciousness.
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So you assert. Some Evidence of this is still required.
 
moonbogg said:
Is it normal to feel kind of like you are going a little insane trying to figure out WTF is going on regarding this topic? I mean, I get the whole thing. We are here, we don't know how or why and so we suspect there is a god but that isn't always a satisfying answer. I think I'm screwed with this one. I'll die long before an answer is found, and if the answer only comes to those who are smart enough or enlightened enough to figure it out, then I'm still screwed.
Also, why do I seem to care so much? Should it matter to a creature like myself? I'm here, I eat and poop and screw around a little bit, and then I die. Why should I care? Why DO I care?
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The answer can only come from God. There is no way to figure it out on your own. No man can, without God.

For the answer to why you care, ask Jesus.

Luke 11

9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
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Do I believe in God? yes

Why do we need God? I dunno. maybe an investment for such thing as "after life". I call it 401-k [squared]

Why Do we not believe in God? I believe in present. I believe in retirement. Maybe I should play it safe and believe in after life too.

Religion has yet restricted me from enjoying life.

I don't have all the answers, I keep searching for knowledge. I believe 'free-will' is the greatest power we as mankind are conditioned with, rather we don't focus on how to use it.
 
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Pray To Jesus said:
The answer can only come from God. There is no way to figure it out on your own. No man can, without God.

For the answer to why you care, ask Jesus.
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I was Christian for more than the first half of my life. I actually believed. I even cried at Easter for what he did for me. But I later came to believe that I had been mistaken. Jesus had his chance to answer my questions. I prefer to ask people questions who can actually answer back without having to pretend the answers come in the form of some vague emotional state.
I duno, I suppose I wasn't really a Christian and wasn't doing it right? That's what people usually say when Christians become atheist or something else along those lines.
Now, if you want to talk about god giving the answer, I have good reason to suspect that if there was a god that he wouldn't reveal himself, ever. He wouldn't for the same reasons that we wouldn't introduce ourselves to a primitive species living on another planet: Violation of sovereignty.
I suspect that discovering god would be like finding treasure at the end of a long journey. Once we discover enough about the universe/multiverse etc, we might decide to conclude it likely that it was created by some intelligent force or thing, but I don't think that thing would present itself to us, ever, directly. Nor would advanced species living elsewhere contact us, ever. They would be more responsible and considerate than that.
Its a human curiosity for humans to decide and figure out. Science is the way, the truth and the life. Our best shot at heaven is through the scientific process.
 
Cerpin Taxt said:
What God? Maybe you should try to establish the existence of a god, first.


That'd be great, but why are you quoting an anonymous manuscript?
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The one true God who created the Universe. God, as He reveals Himself in the Bible, whose nature is Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
 
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