Your thoughts on God

[Savatar]

How else would you judge right or wrong?

"By your fruits shall ye be known" right?

Well the Bible is full of immoral, unethical nonsense that is commanded us do by god yet we are intended to look upon such actions as holy or righteous because it was this fictitious everlasting holyman who commanded they be done.

Lot's offering his daughter to be raped is a great example.

I am absolutely floored by people who think the bible is a moral measuring stick. They clearly have never read it or have never given it any real thought.

Lot wasn't necessarily an example of a person to impersonate... he was just one of the people saved from the absolute destruction of the even-more wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, filled with people of the same mind as those rapists. Certainly Lot didn't desire that fate for his daughter, either! I don't think for a moment that he condoned rape!

 

[ThinClient]

Lot wasn't necessarily an example of a person to impersonate... he was just one of the people saved from the absolute destruction of the even-more wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, filled with people of the same mind as those rapists. Certainly Lot didn't desire that fate for his daughter, either! I don't think for a moment that he condoned rape!

So if I walked up to you and put a gun to your head and said that I'm going to kill you, you wouldn't think for a moment that I condone murder?

If I offered my daughter up to a crowd to be raped, you'd assume I was just joking?

my head asplode

Lot DID offer his daughter to be raped. What kind of holy man is that? God saved Lot and his family because they were holy, yet allowed Lot to offer his daughter for rape (because that's not a sin apparently), but punished Lot's wife for something as petty as looking back at the city's destruction (which isn't a sin) by turning her into a pillar of salt...

DEATH for looking over your shoulder, but holy praise for a man who does things as disgustingly vile as offering his daughter up to be raped by a crowd of men.

...does not compute.

 

[Savatar]

So if I walked up to you and put a gun to your head and said that I'm going to kill you, you wouldn't think for a moment that I condone murder?

If I offered my daughter up to a crowd to be raped, you'd assume I was just joking?

my head asplode

Lot DID offer his daughter to be raped. What kind of holy man is that? God saved Lot and his family because they were holy, yet allowed Lot to offer his daughter for rape (because that's not a sin apparently), but punished Lot's wife for something as petty as looking back at the city's destruction (which isn't a sin) by turning her into a pillar of salt...

DEATH for looking over your shoulder, but holy praise for a man who does things as disgustingly vile as offering his daughter up to be raped by a crowd of men.

...does not compute.

I think you're taking it out of context, do you remember the circumstances that prompted Lot to 'offer his daughter to the mob'? The mob was going to rape the beautiful men who had come to visit him, which is an even more despicable act of not only forced rape but homosexuality - at least in light of scripture - but NEITHER ARE OK and I do not believe Lot condoned either by his words here since he did not want to do what he said. Lot simply had compassion for the men who visited him, at the time visitors were meant to be under the person's care, and probably didn't want anyone to be raped at all. It was then in an effort to safeguard their well-being (and an action made under duress to prevent the situation from escalating) that he offered his daughter.

That he offered his daughter instead of them taking the visiting men, whom he did not know, shows that he cared greatly even for a stranger! Historically at the time, it was a very big deal and important as a societal norm to care for the safety of any travelers/visitors and to provide for them while they were in your care - you were in a sense responsible for them. This also shows how far the city was from what was even expected as just normal at the time. How many of us could say that we would do the same for someone we did not know? Nowadays hardly anyone seems to care for strangers.

Yes, it would have been much better if Lot just refused their requests altogether and told them all to go away! (The visiting men/angels could have saved him without incident, but he didn't know that) He was likely very afraid that they would then turn violent against everyone there, and therefore put more peoples' lives and well-being in danger, and so his offense is much lessened. Not to mention that the mob did not take his daughter.

Your scenario of you putting a gun to my head and pulling the trigger meaning you condone murder would depend on similar circumstances. Killing a person in cold blood is certainly bad, either way, but someone being forced under another threat to do so would likely have the penalty lessened by most juries as acting under duress. The two are not the same thing, and while you would likely condone murder if you killed anyone in cold blood, intentionally, you cannot necessarily say you condone murder if you killed (or just threatened, as in Lot's case, since no action was actually taken) someone under another threat to yourself, family member, or a friend. Of course, only yourself and God would know your heart and true feelings of the action - and that is why God is the more perfect judge.

But these are generally different scenarios than the Lot situation - you tend to take things entirely out of context. Please take a moment and refresh your memory of the incident in scripture and you'll see clearly that he was under duress and did not necessarily condone rape at all: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19 It seems like unfounded slander against his character to suggest otherwise. You seem like you tend to approach anything to do with scripture with such a vile mind and hard heart that you don't give it any chance to take the time to think on it and why it is that way. You could learn a lot if you did that, I suspect.

 

[Retro Rob]

I think you're taking it out of context, do you remember the circumstances that prompted Lot to 'offer his daughter to the mob'? The mob was going to rape the beautiful men who had come to visit him, which is an even more despicable act of not only forced rape but homosexuality as well. Lot had compassion for the men who visited him and didn't want them to be raped. Indeed, he probably didn't want anyone to be raped at all - and it was then in an effort to safeguard their well-being (and to prevent the situation from escalating) that he offered his daughter.

Sheer ownage. My thoughts almost exactly. :thumbsup:

 

[moonbogg]

Sheer ownage. My thoughts almost exactly. :thumbsup:

If I were in Lot's place, then we would have ALL been raped and killed, because no way am I handing over my kid to be raped. We would have all gone down fighting. Logic and reason go out the window completely in a situation like that. It doesn't matter whats right or wrong, what makes sense and what doesn't. Its my kid and I am biologically incapable and sitting by and allowing them to be raped. I would act on impulse. Not possible to sit and watch.

 

[Retro Rob]

If I were in Lot's place, then we would have ALL been raped and killed, because no way am I handing over my kid to be raped. We would have all gone down fighting. Logic and reason go out the window completely in a situation like that. It doesn't matter whats right or wrong, what makes sense and what doesn't. Its my kid and I am biologically incapable and sitting by and allowing them to be raped. I would act on impulse. Not possible to sit and watch.

Right, and I am not saying you're wrong for having this view because you're not, but the biblical account is the biblical account. The reasons why Lot did what he did was accurately portrayed above...it was totally misrepresented by TC.

 

[ThinClient]

I think you're taking it out of context, do you remember the circumstances that prompted Lot to 'offer his daughter to the mob'? The mob was going to rape the beautiful men who had come to visit him, which is an even more despicable act of not only forced rape but homosexuality as well.

I'm going to stop you there and I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your post.

Taking it out of context, not at all. I've described the story in detail, linked to it, given the book and chapter and verse it's in. Everyone can look it up themselves from that alone if they don't want to google it.

Saying that the lesser of two evils makes a man holy when god and the angels could both have solved that whole rapey-crowd problem in the first place is foolish and counter-intuitive.

Yes, let's not forget the homosexuality. God creates people with homosexual nature that they cannot change and did not choose, but condemns them for that lifestyle... because he loves them.

That's a completely different thread that I would be more than willing to destroy, too.

It is entirely unethical and immoral to offer your daughter to be raped. I would die for my daughter, if I had one, and I would rather protect her to the death than offer her up to be raped so some angel doesn't have to suffer through it. To hell with the angels, they have power to do all kinds of crazy things in the Bible like being invisible and touching ribs to create so much pain that a man cannot even stand, blah blah blah.

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're so blinded by "god told me to do it so it MUST be excusable" that you are willing to do all kinds of evil things like let your daughter be raped because you think that the action is a righteous action based on religious doctrine.

Thank you for proving my point beautifully.

 

[ThinClient]

Sheer ownage. My thoughts almost exactly. :thumbsup:

Only wicked people believe the way you and he believe and you're blatantly advertising how evil and immoral and unethical you are. You should be ashamed of yourself if you'd offer your daughter to be raped.




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[Retro Rob]

You're a moron. Only wicked people believe the way you and he believe and you're blatantly advertising how evil and immoral and unethical you are. You should be ashamed of yourself if you'd offer your daughter to be raped.

This is the DC. Personal attacks are not permitted. Reported if this is not removed.

 

[Savatar]

I'm going to stop you there and I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your post.

...

I tried to clarify why, so it is a shame you don't read it. But, if you want to remain ignorant, so be it. Can't really have a discussion where people don't even read what others say.

 

[ThinClient]

Right, and I am not saying you're wrong for having this view because you're not, but the biblical account is the biblical account. The reasons why Lot did what he did was accurately portrayed above...it was totally misrepresented by TC.

There's no two ways about it. Angels came to his door, a buncha dudes wanted to fuck the cute angels in the ass, Lot objected and forwardly offered his daughter to be raped.

You haven't offered any other explanation (not that you could, anyway), so your "NUH UH! NUH UH! NUH UH!" isn't really countering any of our arguments.

 

[ThinClient]

This is the DC. Personal attacks are not permitted. Reported if this is not removed.

Ah, yes, good catch. I often forget which forum I'm in since there are similar threads going in several sub forums. My apologies to you for making that mistake, sir.

 

[ThinClient]

I tried to clarify why, so it is a shame you don't read it. But, if you want to remain ignorant, so be it. Can't really have a discussion where people don't even read what others say.

Your premise was wrong. The rest of what you typed was based on your premise so would have been fundamentally wrong to begin with.

And, really, I don't care how you slice the cake. If you're defending a man's decision to freely offer his daughter to be raped (not even simply agreeing to a demand, but being forward enough to make the offer himself), then I don't know what to tell you.

You clearly do not have children or care about them if you're willing to defend a person who condones child rape, let alone their own daughter.

 

[moonbogg]

Right, and I am not saying you're wrong for having this view because you're not, but the biblical account is the biblical account. The reasons why Lot did what he did was accurately portrayed above...it was totally misrepresented by TC.

Understood. But don't mind me, I know you're busy playing with your new friend TC . He seems like such a nice fellow.

 

[dphantom]

There's no two ways about it. Angels came to his door, a buncha dudes wanted to fuck the cute angels in the ass, Lot objected and forwardly offered his daughter to be raped.

You haven't offered any other explanation (not that you could, anyway), so your "NUH UH! NUH UH! NUH UH!" isn't really countering any of our arguments.

Until you can get past your childish outbursts and begin to think deeply, you will continue to miss the meaning in the Bible, or any other religous text.

I doubt anyone is expecting or can convince you of God's existence. But I have stayed away from this thread simply because one cannot have a discussion when you denigrate and utterly reject in the most demeaning way any other viewpoint.

I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss our thoughts on God. I am willing to do that but have no desire to convince anyone else of my thoughts one way or another. Simply to have a discussion. I would hope you could be more mature and be willing to engage in a civilized discourse.

 

[ThinClient]

If I were in Lot's place, then we would have ALL been raped and killed, because no way am I handing over my kid to be raped. We would have all gone down fighting. Logic and reason go out the window completely in a situation like that. It doesn't matter whats right or wrong, what makes sense and what doesn't. Its my kid and I am biologically incapable and sitting by and allowing them to be raped. I would act on impulse. Not possible to sit and watch.

Thank you. :thumbsup:

 

[ThinClient]

Until you can get past your childish outbursts and begin to think deeply, you will continue to miss the meaning in the Bible, or any other religous text.

Childish outbursts are reserved for people like Rob M. who offer them first. People like you who offer civil discussion do not receive such frivolous replies from me.

I doubt anyone is expecting or can convince you of God's existence. But I have stayed away from this thread simply because one cannot have a discussion when you denigrate and utterly reject in the most demeaning way any other viewpoint.

This doesn't have to happen, but often happens when Rob M. steps in with the intellectually dishonest semantics games he plays. Have you read his multi-day-long diatribe about the belief systems of rocks? At that point, many of us are simply toying with him like an amusing play-thing while we wait patiently for intelligent conversation. At this point, I should thank you for being willing to participate.

I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss our thoughts on God. I am willing to do that but have no desire to convince anyone else of my thoughts one way or another. Simply to have a discussion. I would hope you could be more mature and be willing to engage in a civilized discourse.

You cannot have a discussion without two sides to the discussion. One-sided expression is called a monologue. This is a public forum where the entire purpose of its existence is to be a sounding board, a melting pot of ideas. You're more than welcome to your ideas on god, but if you're not willing to listen to someone challenge them in a setting where discussion of conflicting ideas is welcomed and encouraged, then perhaps you should consider withholding your opinion from said environments. :thumbsup:

 

[Retro Rob]

Your premise was wrong. The rest of what you typed was based on your premise so would have been fundamentally wrong to begin with.

And, really, I don't care how you slice the cake. If you're defending a man's decision to freely offer his daughter to be raped (not even simply agreeing to a demand, but being forward enough to make the offer himself), then I don't know what to tell you.

You clearly do not have children or care about them if you're willing to defend a person who condones child rape, let alone their own daughter.

No, he's not defending Lot's decision...and I am willing to bet he doesn't care either way.

He's explaining to you why you're wrong, and you are. You're making a moral judgment which is clouding your ability to actually understand what you're reading.

 

[ThinClient]

No, he's not defending Lot's decision...and I am willing to bet he doesn't care either way.

So you're speaking for other people now, people who are right here and capable of speaking for themselves?

Classy.

Also, you're willing to bet that he doesn't care either way about what? You're willing to be that he doesn't care either way that his daughter would get raped? Because that's what we're talking about.

He's explaining to you why you're wrong, and you are. You're making a moral judgment which is clouding your ability to actually understand what you're reading.

And I'm explaining to him why anyone defending child rape is immoral and unethical, like Lot is in the Bible. Like you are, defending a man who condones child rape. You should be ashamed of yourself for stooping to this level. I want to vomit even thinking about a sociopath who thinks nothing of the rape of children.

I do like how you make the claim that I'm making a moral judgment. This suggests that you agree that it is moral to fight against the wickedness of child rape, especially when her own father is the one offering the bid. Like I said earlier (I think in another thread), there is hope for you yet.

However, I have zero faith that you'll actually explain why I'm wrong. Instead, you just jump up and down and flail your arms and scream that I'm wrong without putting any effort into illustrating why. I doubt you can. I'd be willing to bet that you're just in this to argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[Savatar]

So you're speaking for other people now, people who are right here and capable of speaking for themselves?

Classy.

Also, you're willing to bet that he doesn't care either way about what? You're willing to be that he doesn't care either way that his daughter would get raped? Because that's what we're talking about.



And I'm explaining to him why anyone defending child rape is immoral and unethical, like Lot is in the Bible. Like you are, defending a man who condones child rape. You should be ashamed of yourself for stooping to this level. I want to vomit even thinking about a sociopath who thinks nothing of the rape of children.

I do like how you make the claim that I'm making a moral judgment. This suggests that you agree that it is moral to fight against the wickedness of child rape, especially when her own father is the one offering the bid. Like I said earlier (I think in another thread), there is hope for you yet.

However, I have zero faith that you'll actually explain why I'm wrong. Instead, you just jump up and down and flail your arms and scream that I'm wrong without putting any effort into illustrating why. I doubt you can. I'd be willing to bet that you're just in this to argue for the sake of arguing.

You seem to be taking things out of context again.

As I stated in my previous post, which you rudely said you wouldn't even read because you assumed you knew what I was going to say, an action performed under duress does not mean you condone those actions, at least not in all situations. Not to mention that no raping actually occurred in the story. What would you have done to those men? If you would have killed them, does that mean you condone murder? Certainly not! That's ridiculous!

 

[moonbogg]

ThinClient, based on your posts I feel that I can strongly relate to you. I don't know how long you have been atheist, if you underwent a process of deconversion or not, but that's only my first point of inquiry. The second is the following. I am willing to bet that you have a deep sense of wonder and amazement about the universe and all its great mysteries. For me as an atheist, I find myself deeply intrigued by reality and i'd like to hear your thoughts on reality and the universe.
Assuming there is no multiverse, which there may or may not be, in this universe alone we seem to be a rare product compared to how much other stuff is out there. In other words, we seem to have hit the cosmic lottery, but do you ever wonder why it should even be possible, or how it could be possible for intelligent life to exist, no matter how rare it may be?

 

[irishScott]

Free will is a joke.

< 3 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anBxaOcZnGk

Free will within human parameters obviously. Do we have perfect free will? Of course not. No organism does by definition. However there's no denying that we have plenty of choices in life, and we decide those choices. Yes those choices are often based on factors outside our control, but just because we didn't choose the playing field doesn't mean we can't choose how to play the game.

If God (supposing he exists) intervened to create a perfectly peaceful race, the OP would have been incapable of making this thread. We'd be back in Adam and Eve days, only instead of having the choice to eat the apple or not we'd be living in perfectly controlled bliss; and everyone would reflexively walk away from the apple tree without knowing or caring why.

 

[irishScott]

If I were in Lot's place, then we would have ALL been raped and killed, because no way am I handing over my kid to be raped. We would have all gone down fighting. Logic and reason go out the window completely in a situation like that. It doesn't matter whats right or wrong, what makes sense and what doesn't. Its my kid and I am biologically incapable and sitting by and allowing them to be raped. I would act on impulse. Not possible to sit and watch.

Perhaps, but reading from the New Testament:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter 2:6-8;&version=KJV

2 Peter 2:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; )

It would appear Lot was effectively suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

 

[irishScott]

So god knows that we'll accept his redemption or not before we're created. However, he creates us anyway. He creates people knowing that they will go to hell but doesn't do anything to save them. He creates them knowing that they will spend an eternity in hell where there is infinite fire and brimstone and suffering and unfulfillment and separation from god... yet he's a god of love?

Bwuahahahaha...

God creates people intending to send them to hell. He creates someone intending to allow them to suffer and be tortured.

...because he LOVES YOU.


LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

First of all, calm your tits.

Second of all, I think you need to learn about Christianity from someone besides other angry Atheists. There are many interpretations of the Bible, you seem to think the literal is the be-all-end-all.

 

[sandorski]

Free will within human parameters obviously. Do we have perfect free will? Of course not. No organism does by definition. However there's no denying that we have plenty of choices in life, and we decide those choices. Yes those choices are often based on factors outside our control, but just because we didn't choose the playing field doesn't mean we can't choose how to play the game.

If God (supposing he exists) intervened to create a perfectly peaceful race, the OP would have been incapable of making this thread. We'd be back in Adam and Eve days, only instead of having the choice to eat the apple or not we'd be living in perfectly controlled bliss; and everyone would reflexively walk away from the apple tree without knowing or caring why.

"Gods'" dealings with Moses and Pharaoh makes it clear that the "god" of the Bible has no qualms about violating "Free Will".