Your opinion

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
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This is a classic economic trade-off. It is what determines everything from your retirement savings to government fiscal policy to global trade decisions.

What's your take?

Please post your age, how you voted and your general political affiliation. Not parties, more right-left, libertarian-statist.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Wasn't really sure what you were looking for here :) But I don't think the answer is different whether you answer for investing or the US economy. You have to think long-term, but act short term. The US should implement the old "increase your 401(k)" approach. Every year, whatever "raise" the US gets in increased revenues should be applied to the deficit. No budget increases. You got by fine last year, you'll do fine this year. 10-12 years, deficit gone. By default, you become more efficient in your spending and savings habits.

33, voted libertarian last time, socially: somewhat liberal, fiscally: conservative, foreign: neocon.
 

Vadatajs

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2001
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I took it to mean the economy. I think that policy makers should definitely consider the long term (10-20 years). I don't think looking much beyond that is realistic, as there are too many variables that cannot be predicted so far into the future. BTW, I'm not an economist, and tend to view the economy from a sociological point of view. As a result I tend to value a Marxist conflict perspective over a structural-functionalist one (the ideal, of course, is a mix of the two).

If you haven't guessed by the 'm' word I'm an economic and social liberal; age 23.
 
May 10, 2001
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Wow, looks like people will say they want to be monetarists *conservatives*
But will vote for the ?compassionate? Keynesians *free spenders*

We need to tax less and spend less, hopefully we?ll see that in taxing less we need to demand less spending and the republicans will have backing to cut spending.

As Kerry?s ?raise taxes? line is never going to fly.

*****

22, long term 10-20, Christian Conservative.

Social conservative, fiscal conservative;

But i believe social issues should be left up to the states and then most left up to the counties and municipalities.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
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Well Kain,

Although your assertions about deficit spending are pretty accurate w/r/t this poll, your tax-phobic statements should be qualified.

There is little to no evidence that overall levels of taxation have any correlation to productivity. However, this is not a very precise way of testing the traditional supply-side theories you support.

If one were to isolate income tax, as well as other capital-oriented taxes like corporate taxes and inheritance taxes, then yes, you would find more support for your ideology. However, the bulk of reseach in this area is averaged and estimated over 5 yr periods. Longer than that, and the correlation of tax level and productivity tends to get lost in the statistical "noise."

Trying to separate that force from other forces, many recent researchers have tried to isolate other variables, such as government spending, surplus, etc. In doing so, they have been able to extend the supply-side benifits to extend their positive effects indefinitely, or at least as long as they wished to estimate. However, they also found that there was an equal, and opposite force that pushed in the opposite direction.

Namely, government expenditure on capital. In fact, they a few studies have found that the productivity benifits of government expenditure on human capital (health care, education, telecommunications, etc) can cancel out the productivity losses generated by savings-inhibiting taxes. The magnitude of this effect begins to approach the magnitude of the negative taxation force at around the 10 year mark. And in fact, one study I've read suggested that the positive effects of gov't expenditure on productivity can far surpass the negative effects of taxation by the 20 year mark. In fact, it suggested that the optimal marginal rate of taxation could be as high as 60%.

Now, this research is still in it's virginal state. In fact, the basic theoretical structure was only published in 1990. None of this is enough on which to base a policy recommendation. The research is still too new. Also, it doesn't rebut the criticism of the traditional supply-sider's view of the tax structure. Those negative effects do exist. If taxation can be shifted (in a renvenue neutral way) off savings and onto consumption, it is likely that there would be significant productive gains. It is, however, enough to punch a hole in the invulnerability of the tax-cutter's armour. I think that these studies cast doubt on the absolutist claims that tax cuts will always benefit the long-term growth of the economy.

In other words, the decision must be made politically. There are options. It can't be dictated by economic "facts."

It seems that Lucas's "free lunch" has a bill to pay at the end after all.

The pendulum is swinging back, my friend.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
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This is an interesting question with many answers.

With respect to the US budget, it is obvious that currently the US is unable to support its spending, even in relatively good times in the economy, it continues to lose money at a staggering rate. short term pain of taxation is probably the best solution as this has a long term effect on the economy.

With respect to the stock market and investments, most will say they would like the markets to perform well within the time period of their lives such that they are able to take advantage of this surge.

There are short term trade offs for the long term, but if these long term results do not become short term in any period of time, they are not worth the sacrifice.
Also, Bush's policies are not progressive or helpful in any respect, for the long or short term. The assumption that this is a just a slow region is over looking a lot of important facts.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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My take is that the economy is being held back and hampered by an archaic and extremely burdensome tax system, central banking & inflation, and an enormous number of regulations.

It is estimated that regulations cost businesses $900 billion+ a year, and that just to PROCESS income tax returns costs .15 cents on every dollar that is actually paid in taxes. Just two quick statistics to indicate how much the government is screwing us over.

The economy would literally double overnight if the government was only involved in what it was originally supposed to do: protect private property. This means getting out of the currency/central banking, taxation, and regulation racket. That is essentially all the government is: one big racket. It is really the worst racket of all because it is a racket on our LIVES. Our time is our life, and the government is literally stealing it from us. Hence, in this poll I think steps to get the government out of our business & lives should be taken right now, not even one year from now.

I am 20 years old (will be 21 at the end of this month), my political affiliation is libertarian, my economic affiliation is anarcho-capitalist. I have joined the Free State Project and plan on moving to New Hampshire after I graduate from college.

Here is an interesting article on NH from Sunday's NY Times:

(a snippet)

This is the only state(NH) other than Alaska that has neither a sales tax nor an income tax on wages and salaries. Candidates for state office are invariably asked to take a pledge not to raise taxes, and few if any who have refused to do so have ever won an election.

Low taxes have proved to be central to New Hampshire's fortunes. Since the 1960's, this has been the fastest-growing state in the Northeast; its population increased 83 percent from 1965 to 2000. The gritty textile and paper mills that had dominated the economy for a century gave way to high-tech businesses that moved in largely because of the low taxes. Today, Manchester, which with slightly more than 100,000 people is the state's largest town, is characterized more by granola than by grime.

The Congressional Quarterly data reflect the state's affluence. New Hampshire has the lowest crime and poverty rates in the country and the highest scores on eighth-grade reading proficiency. Housing prices have been rising faster, and more households are connected to the Internet, than in almost any other state. The unemployment rate in June, 3.9 percent, was well below the national average of 5.6 percent.

Text

Just goes to show that freedom really does work.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
My take is that the economy is being held back and hampered by an archaic and extremely burdensome tax system, central banking & inflation, and an enormous number of regulations.

.
Funny, it wasn't held back in the 90's under the same "archaic and extremely burdensome tax system, central banking & inflation, and an enormous number of regulations" WHat's changed over the last 4 years?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Dissipate
My take is that the economy is being held back and hampered by an archaic and extremely burdensome tax system, central banking & inflation, and an enormous number of regulations.

.
Funny, it wasn't held back in the 90's under the same "archaic and extremely burdensome tax system, central banking & inflation, and an enormous number of regulations" WHat's changed over the last 4 years?

Wrong, it has been hampered for decade after decade. Libertarians and Austrian economists say that the only periods in history in which this largely did not occur was the years between 1783-1807 and 1846-1860.

Go here and scroll down to: Myth #7.
 
May 10, 2001
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There is little to no evidence that overall levels of taxation have any correlation to productivity.
but there is a direct correlation between investment capital and taxation.

However, this is not a very precise way of testing the traditional supply-side theories you support.
hey! No.

can cancel out the productivity losses generated by savings-inhibiting taxes.
the word ?can? and the word ?will? are two different things. Cutting taxation on capital investments will lead to higher supply, greater employment, a greater GDP, while keeping low inflation.

On the other hand investment of taxed funds in human capital ?can? see a return.

That said, I?m not a supply side subscriber, necessarily... I?d say I?m a base-equalitarian neo-classical monetarist, if anything.

I believe in investment both in human capital and in growth through tax cuts; we shouldn?t be taxing capital, we should be taxing income on an equal % across the board, starting at about 40k, and we should supplement that with a sales tax.

. It is, however, enough to punch a hole in the invulnerability of the tax-cutter's armour
it?s enough to get me to agree with what I already do:

it?s good to pay for schooling on any level, fact is that a greater specialization of labor leads to greater production.

The pendulum is swinging back, my friend
looks to me like the ?compassionate conservatives? agree and have found a good balance.. now to get the AMTax in on everyone and cut non human capital expenditures.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
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Originally posted by: Kibbo
This is a classic economic trade-off. It is what determines everything from your retirement savings to government fiscal policy to global trade decisions.

What's your take?

Please post your age, how you voted and your general political affiliation. Not parties, more right-left, libertarian-statist.

It depends on wherever you have a job which pays enough to support you and your family. I have a good job so I can tolerate some economic pain for a lot of gain. But I would think differently if I did not have a job or was working two jobs and still was not able to feed my kids.