Your first time home buying mistakes?

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velillen

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2006
2,120
1
81
The most important thing I would recommend to a first time buyer is to go small. Keep your payments low, meaning you keep your interest paid low, and build as much equity as possible. You can roll that equity into moving into a bigger house someday, you don't have to start in a McMansion.

Thats very good advice. I can afford my house just fine but at times wish i'd gone for a cheaper one to be able to do more remodeling/fixing up the way i want it. I wont take a loan to do it so its been sort of slow to do things. Like my house had cheap "renters grade" carpet in it and i want ot replace it all which is going ot be at least 5k. Good chunk of money that if it was cheaper i could afford easier vs having to save up a bit more first now.

Also set aside a good chunk for "move in costs". Just things you want to buy when you do buy a house and move in. having money set aside means you can afford new curtains or new pots and pans or whatever else you didnt think of at the time
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,035
1,134
126
Bought our house in 2009 and interest rates were at low, so I thought why not and paid $3K in points to lower it some more. Come 2011, it was even lower and we refinanced and that $3K was lost.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
A basement is almost a requirement to me. Just 3 months ago I watched half a town be literally destroyed by a tornado. All that was left was subfloors. All that kept people alive were their basements. A slab home would have been a sure death in that situation.

yeah, having a basement would be a requirement for me as well. ideally finished, or at least partially finished, to use for storage and a laundry room. my parents have been living in their house for 30 years and I can only think of two instances of flooding (and it hasn't been an issue since they installed a pump)

I'm sure it varies widely from region to region, though. around here, you'd really have to struggle to find a house that *didn't* have a basement.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,741
456
126
You mean, besides buying at the top of the market and watching my condo go down in value by 40% in three years? :)

My advice? Get a realtor that isn't a greedy bitch. If she tries to sell you property in a bad neighborhood just because it's "in your price range" RUN away.

Oh, and don't buy a house until you have the 20% to put down for a down payment. Getting PMI sucks, as does getting two mortgages.

At this point since PMI sticks with the life of the loan, I agree. Before April 2013 though it was worth doing the math. With interest rates as low as they are, you need to calculate how long it would take to save that much money. Then you need to do some research and make an informed guess what the market will be like by the time you have the 20%. Assuming house prices stay put that long (a poor assumption), you'd be able to get a figure of how low rates would have to stay to end up ahead. When you're talking a 30 year loan, it doesn't take much interest to hurt in the long run.
 

Zee

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 1999
5,171
3
76
Buy a house, not an apartment. If you must have a shared wall/ceiling/floor, make sure it's sound proof. You will feel like a prisoner in your own home if you dont check this.

If you are scared of high property taxes in a certain area, calculate the price of the maintenance fee and common charge of an apartment and understand it adds up to the property tax amount anyway. Its far better to live in a detached house in the end.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
I thought that was only true of VA loans?

PMI doesn't ride the entire length of a conventional loan. You pay PMI until one of the following things happens:

1) PMI is automatically removed when the value of the loan reaches 78% of the original value of the house.
2) PMI can be removed by request when the value of the loan reaches 80% of the original value of the house.
3) You can pay to have the house appraised again to set a new value for the house. The bank has to be involved, but if the value comes in higher they're obligated to remove PMI if you cross the 80% threshold.

It's different for FHA, but I don't remember the details anymore. When I had an FHA loan, PMI had to be paid for 5 years minimum regardless of the value of the loan.

One other thing I want to mention is that paying PMI isn't always that bad. People aren't wrong when they say it's a 'waste' of money, but consider the benefit of buying the house you really want versus a house to which you can afford to put down 20%. I trampolined off of my last house into my current house, which was almost twice as expensive. We had about 15% to put down and we could easily afford the loan, but saving an extra 5% would have taken far too long to still be able to get the house. Considering it was our third house, we knew exactly what we wanted and, contrary to my earlier opinion which was meant for first time buyers, we didn't want to miss the opportunity.

It's less than a mile from my office and a huge shopping center with about 20 big name stores, less than two miles from the interstate, about 40 feet away from the neighborhood pool, has a 2000 sq ft unfinished basement, massive 3 car garage, etc. etc. After making mistakes at our first two houses, we knew what we wanted and this was it.

Anyway, paying a little bit of PMI allowed us to get the house before someone else and there was definitely interest. In the end, we got it because I played nice with the sellers and I came without a realtor. They accepted my offer and then I asked for another 3% off because I didn't have a realtor. At first, they declined because they said they still had to pay their realtor 6%, but I said that's not my problem and that they shouldn't pay the fucking crook so much money. So, after walking away for a few days, they called as I assumed they would and said they'd accept 3% off of the agreed upon price because they were only paying their realtor 3% at that point.

We made 17 payments of $79 in PMI before we crossed the threshold. Paying an extra $1,300 for a house we truly love is mouse nuts compared to the price and eventual interest. That brings me to my next point - paying PMI can be done in such a way that the monthly value is significantly decreased. On conventional loans, the value of the monthly payment is calculated based on which 5% bracket your deposit belongs. If you put down 0-4.99%, you'll pay X. If you put down 5.00 - 9.99%, you might pay 0.8x. If you put down 10.00 - 14.99%, you might pay 0.45x. If you put down 15.00 - 19.99%, you might pay 0.25x or less. I put down 15.02% (just to be sure we were over the line - you know how banks love to screw their customers) and that came out to $79/month for a loan with an initial value of $412,200 and a house value of $485,000.

No, I'm not recommending everyone to go buy a bigger house and eat the PMI. I'm saying there are certainly situations where it makes sense to do. It can really add up fast especially if you don't put much down because the payment is way higher and you pay it way longer. I already knew exactly how much we'd have to pay and decided it was totally worth it.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
Don't buy an open floor designed house. It depends on how you live, but noise from TV, people, kitchen and smells from the kitchen travel too easily.
That's personal preference and not advice in general.

I agree. An open floor plan was one of our main requirements. My last house felt like a cave compared to my current house. The main living areas being connected is also great for kids. They'll actually go do things by themselves because we're still in their line of sight. Entertaining is also easier because people can meander without being separated by walls. I suppose noise could be a concern for some people, but it's honestly never been an issue for me or my family.
 

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
154
106
Quite a few agents will also refuse to deal with buyer's who don't have an agent, because frankly most buyer's are idiots. The seller's agent knows that when dealing with a buyer whose out to save money by not having an agent, that they're going to end up doing the work for both the seller and the buyer, again, because most people are idiots.

And worth it to many agents who get to pocket the entire commission. No other agent to split with.

And in most (if not all) states there are regulations around dual agency, and if the buyer does not have an agent then the buyer may be de facto represented by the seller's agent if they do ANY of the work that would have been done by the buyer's agent. In the event that there are problems with the transaction, there could be trouble for the agent in the case of dual agency.
Not necessarily. You can deal with an agent, but not have him represent you. For instance, you can work with several agents and all of them can send you email listings of properties they all hope you will be interested in. When you see that one property, you typically sign a buyer agent agreement and now that agent works for you. If you have a property you want to sell, you sign a listing agreement instead.

In a scenario where the seller has a agent but the buyer does not, a dual agency is not necessary (this could vary state by state, I'm just quoting what I know). The buyer doesn't necessarily require an agent and I'm not familiar with a state that would force a buyer to sign an agreement with a realtor. The agent representing seller can still help close the deal and act as a non-agent or facilitator to the buyer while still maintaining a fiduciary duty to the seller. This agent would work "for" the seller and would work "with" the buyer but would not educate or counsel the buyer.

If you want to save money by not having a buyer's agent, become an agent yourself (it's not difficult) or buy a FSBO. Don't be that asshole who thinks they're going to get a deal and make everyone's life miserable.

You have to pay dues to a real estate board and a brokerage, have to get licensed and have a brokerage hold your license, take classes and recertify frequently. Doesn't sound like a good way to save $$$ if you ask me :\ Like I said before, most realtors would jump at the opportunity to work a deal without another agent. A good agent working for his/her client can still disclose material facts about a property to the other party, prepare agreements and paperwork for a transaction and even keep records and accounting for deposits/monies and then close the deal. All while maintaining a fiduciary duty to their own client.
 

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
154
106
It's different for FHA, but I don't remember the details anymore. When I had an FHA loan, PMI had to be paid for 5 years minimum regardless of the value of the loan.

Last time I checked an FHA loan in the last few months, this has changed. PMI used to come off when a certain precentage was reached but now you are stuck with it for the lifetime of the loan. You could always refinance though and get rid of it...
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91

Getting a real estate license just to buy a house is ridiculous overkill. I learned everything I needed to know to do it well in about three weeks of research. Yeah, I hit the occasional snag along the way, but there were no big surprises. Besides, I know several people with real estate licenses and they've independently corroborated the same piece of information - the vast majority of real estate classes are about teaching you how to get commission, not about selling real estate since it's pretty straight forward.

Re: the rest of your post - You essentially described my last house purchase. The agent tried to plead a case for assuming the entire 6%, but I wouldn't have any part of that. She did hardly any work as I was more prepared than she was. By closing, the sellers were suing her for various things and she deserved it. The woman was a huge moron in every measurable way. I submitted a list of things I wanted them to fix in writing and she changed it before giving it to them, which obviously pissed both of us off since they fixed shit I didn't care about and didn't fix shit I did care about. We ended up working around the agent by basically excluding her from all communication, which made the whole process about 10x better.

I also sold my house without a realtor at the same time that I was buying the aforementioned house. The buyers' agent said I had to pay him 3% and I told him to go fuck himself right in my driveway. The buyers were first timers and looked totally confused because they thought I 'had' to pay him. I said no, actually I don't. We've signed nothing and I didn't hire him. I apologized to them for being a buzz kill, but I was in no hurry to move because I knew what my house was worth and I wasn't going to accept less. I reiterated that they made a good offer and I would gladly accept it as long as I didn't have to pay for their optional use of a realtor. Once they understood the situation, they negotiated his rate down to 2% and he begrudgingly agreed. The buyers and the agent came over to my house (I invited them over for dinner so we could work through the whole deal in a night) and it went absolutely fantastic. I brought the papers to a real estate lawyer ahead of time for review so I knew the ins and outs of my contract. The cost of that was $400 versus $9000 for a realtor and it was probably a higher quality contract to be honest.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
Last time I checked an FHA loan in the last few months, this has changed. PMI used to come off when a certain precentage was reached but now you are stuck with it for the lifetime of the loan. You could always refinance though and get rid of it...

That sucks. I knew it changed, but I didn't realize it was a lifetime deal now. Ouch.
 

FallenHero

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2006
5,659
0
0
Last time I checked an FHA loan in the last few months, this has changed. PMI used to come off when a certain precentage was reached but now you are stuck with it for the lifetime of the loan. You could always refinance though and get rid of it...

Not lifetime for all of them. Only above 90% LTV. Which is where most people get FHA anyway, but still.

Still though, refinance out of it if you get an FHA and you hit that magic 20% mark.

http://www.fha.com/fha_requirements_mortgage_insurance
 

steve wilson

Senior member
Sep 18, 2004
839
0
76
Not negotiating better on the price was my main mistake.

This was my mistake also. Also paid for a high end inspection of the property. It didn't turn up half of the problems that the house had. I would take someone you trust in the building trade to help you see if there are any problems with the house and then get the bare minimum inspection for the loan/mortgage.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,548
1,128
126
PMI doesn't ride the entire length of a conventional loan. You pay PMI until one of the following things happens:

1) PMI is automatically removed when the value of the loan reaches 78% of the original value of the house.
2) PMI can be removed by request when the value of the loan reaches 80% of the original value of the house.
3) You can pay to have the house appraised again to set a new value for the house. The bank has to be involved, but if the value comes in higher they're obligated to remove PMI if you cross the 80% threshold.

It's different for FHA, but I don't remember the details anymore. When I had an FHA loan, PMI had to be paid for 5 years minimum regardless of the value of the loan.

One other thing I want to mention is that paying PMI isn't always that bad. People aren't wrong when they say it's a 'waste' of money, but consider the benefit of buying the house you really want versus a house to which you can afford to put down 20%. I trampolined off of my last house into my current house, which was almost twice as expensive. We had about 15% to put down and we could easily afford the loan, but saving an extra 5% would have taken far too long to still be able to get the house. Considering it was our third house, we knew exactly what we wanted and, contrary to my earlier opinion which was meant for first time buyers, we didn't want to miss the opportunity.

It's less than a mile from my office and a huge shopping center with about 20 big name stores, less than two miles from the interstate, about 40 feet away from the neighborhood pool, has a 2000 sq ft unfinished basement, massive 3 car garage, etc. etc. After making mistakes at our first two houses, we knew what we wanted and this was it.

Anyway, paying a little bit of PMI allowed us to get the house before someone else and there was definitely interest. In the end, we got it because I played nice with the sellers and I came without a realtor. They accepted my offer and then I asked for another 3% off because I didn't have a realtor. At first, they declined because they said they still had to pay their realtor 6%, but I said that's not my problem and that they shouldn't pay the fucking crook so much money. So, after walking away for a few days, they called as I assumed they would and said they'd accept 3% off of the agreed upon price because they were only paying their realtor 3% at that point.

We made 17 payments of $79 in PMI before we crossed the threshold. Paying an extra $1,300 for a house we truly love is mouse nuts compared to the price and eventual interest. That brings me to my next point - paying PMI can be done in such a way that the monthly value is significantly decreased. On conventional loans, the value of the monthly payment is calculated based on which 5% bracket your deposit belongs. If you put down 0-4.99%, you'll pay X. If you put down 5.00 - 9.99%, you might pay 0.8x. If you put down 10.00 - 14.99%, you might pay 0.45x. If you put down 15.00 - 19.99%, you might pay 0.25x or less. I put down 15.02% (just to be sure we were over the line - you know how banks love to screw their customers) and that came out to $79/month for a loan with an initial value of $412,200 and a house value of $485,000.

No, I'm not recommending everyone to go buy a bigger house and eat the PMI. I'm saying there are certainly situations where it makes sense to do. It can really add up fast especially if you don't put much down because the payment is way higher and you pay it way longer. I already knew exactly how much we'd have to pay and decided it was totally worth it.

Fairly recent changes in the last year or so made PMI stick to the majority of FHA loans for the life of the loans. You have to refinance to a conventional loan to get out of it(and have 20% equity of course).
 
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velillen

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2006
2,120
1
81
This was my mistake also. Also paid for a high end inspection of the property. It didn't turn up half of the problems that the house had. I would take someone you trust in the building trade to help you see if there are any problems with the house and then get the bare minimum inspection for the loan/mortgage.

Thats good advice but more than likely you could have 4 inspectors do an inspection and after move in you would notice something. Least when i did my inspection i was more concerned with finding the big things. Little things like patching a crack in the garage floor was no big deal (and cost me all of 10 bucks).

Heck guy i work with bought a house less than a year ago. Had two inspections plus some friends walk through. Turns out the previous own had freshly painted everything (youd think no big deal right). Well now 8 months after buying he started seeing these tiny cracks in the ceiling. Turns out they had sheet rocked the ceilings but didnt bother to tape and mud the seams. Instead they just put a heavy coat of paint over them which now that the sheet rock and house settle a bit more is exposing those cracks. Not a super expensive fix but time consuming have to tape and mud all the seams and then repaint basically the whole house (least the ceiling). I know he looked into going after the seller for it but it wasnt going to be worth it. Was going to cost just as much to make them fix it as for him to do it so he'd rather do it right.
 

steve wilson

Senior member
Sep 18, 2004
839
0
76
Thats good advice but more than likely you could have 4 inspectors do an inspection and after move in you would notice something. Least when i did my inspection i was more concerned with finding the big things. Little things like patching a crack in the garage floor was no big deal (and cost me all of 10 bucks).

Heck guy i work with bought a house less than a year ago. Had two inspections plus some friends walk through. Turns out the previous own had freshly painted everything (youd think no big deal right). Well now 8 months after buying he started seeing these tiny cracks in the ceiling. Turns out they had sheet rocked the ceilings but didnt bother to tape and mud the seams. Instead they just put a heavy coat of paint over them which now that the sheet rock and house settle a bit more is exposing those cracks. Not a super expensive fix but time consuming have to tape and mud all the seams and then repaint basically the whole house (least the ceiling). I know he looked into going after the seller for it but it wasnt going to be worth it. Was going to cost just as much to make them fix it as for him to do it so he'd rather do it right.

You are right, I was just pointing out that it's not worth spending the money on an expensive inspector as they are just as likely to miss it as a friend who knows what he is doing (Assuming you have a friend with the skills required).

I have only ever bought one house and I bought it right before the property crash in 2008. Bad luck/bad timing on my part :(

One year later my house lost around 15-20% of its value, so I could of saved some money by waiting, but if I could of predicted the recession was going to happen I could of made millions :)
 

NoCreativity

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,735
62
91
Not lifetime for all of them. Only above 90% LTV. Which is where most people get FHA anyway, but still.

Still though, refinance out of it if you get an FHA and you hit that magic 20% mark.

http://www.fha.com/fha_requirements_mortgage_insurance

Lifetime on >90% LTV, 11 years on everything else plus upfront payment equal to 1.75% of the loan.

There is also a larger difference between FHA PMI (technically called MIP) and non-FHA PMI. For a 240K loan the FHA PMI is ~265/month and the non-FHA PMI is ~50/month. Plus you can get rid of the non-FHA PMI when you hit 80% LTV.

Moral of the story, don't do an FHA loan. There are plenty of other options out there if you don't have 20% to put down.
 

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
154
106
Moral of the story, don't do an FHA loan. There are plenty of other options out there if you don't have 20% to put down.

Please elaborate? I'm looking at a house and considering an FHA loan, mainly for the small amount of down payment needed up front. Part of what turns me off about FHA is the requirement that the buyer live in the house for at least a year. That and the lifetime PMI...
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,158
1,806
126
I disagree. Old houses have desirable character and nicer features such as virgin growth wood flooring, wood trim, real chimneys, real dimensional lumber (back when 2x4s really were 2x4s) etc... Most houses back then were built with craftsmanship and pride meant something as as a result you have a stable house with "good bones" even if you have antiquated leaky windows or an old furnace etc... That stuff can be replaced with high efficiency heating/hvac systems, modern windows, plumbing etc... You do get disadvantages though; some people hate plaster walls, I like them even if they are a pain in the ass to cut a hole in to install an outlet for instance. Older houses can contain asbestos or lead paint but sometimes it is cheap to remediate them; removal is not always necessary and you can sometimes do it yourself. The look and feel of new construction is appalling and I can't stand it sometimes. I like old houses for the rock solid stability feel of them. I also enjoy the older styles so they are aesthetically pleasing to me too.
Old houses suck IMO. You've already listed many of the reasons. People always say "craftsmen" built those houses back in the good ol' days, but in my limited experience much of that "craft" was aesthetics. Who cares if the stairwell is meticulously carved if the foundation is all rotted out and the basement has a 2" floor slab made of substandard concrete directly on dirt and that's all now cracking to sh!t, and the basement has a 6' ceiling height and is completely uninsulated? (I live in a city with tons of homes from the 1920-1950s eras. My home is technically from the 50s, but was gutted and rebuilt as a modern home.)

Furthermore, only some older homes are built well for that time period. A lot of homes in that time period were built like garbage. As with all things, there is the whole range of good vs. bad. However, my issue with "good" is that even the good building practices of the day won't even come close to meeting modern code.

Note that you can build new houses in the style of old houses, but of course it will be expensive. I know someone who moved in an old neighbourhood full of old Victorian homes. The city said that all homes in that area had to maintain that character. So, they still tore down the old home and built a brand new one in its place, but with a custom Victorian design. Looks great, but with all the modern amenities and none of the bazillion problems all their neighbours have. Furthermore, their ongoing heating and cooling expenses would be much lower, and they don't have the ongoing renovation costs that their neighbours have to implement after-the-fact solutions for the issues plaguing their neighbours. So yeah, their up front costs were higher, but their on-going costs are lower. You pay for it either way.

BTW, why do you even care if 2x4s are 2x4? If you want better stability, use modern 2x6, and so forth. 2x6 also gives you the potential for better insulation and gives you more room to work with in general. And yeah, you won't have to deal with those totally awful lath and plaster walls in a modern home. Those plaster walls are evil, esp. if you want to install Ethernet or something in the house, as you are probably well aware given your name.

I think you sort of missed his point a little bit. You don't want a lot that you're not happy with, nor a house with a layout/sq footage that you're not happy with. But, if the entire neighborhood has houses with granite counter tops and nice kitchen cabinets, and you buy a house of comparable size with laminate counter tops & cheaper cabinets, then with a little remodeling to get the house the way you want it, you can easily raise the value of your house. E.g., let's say you're in a neighborhood of $250k houses, but there's a house that hasn't been updated at all in 40 years. You might be able to get it for $190k, put 30k into it, and have a house that's now worth $250k. But, if you buy the $250k house and put 30k into it to get it the way you like it, you'll be lucky if you can get $260k for in that neighborhood.
That may or may not be true.

Just a note though that where I live (Toronto), $190000 will get you a small condo. Crappy houses start at around $400000 unless you look in a terrible area. In some of the higher end areas, crappy houses start at $600000, and in the expensive areas, they start at $800000+. These prices are for tear downs.

The other problem is that unless you have an in with contractors, or you can do the work yourself, often times $30000 isn't going to get you very far. This is esp. true now because construction is doing well, so all the good tradesmen are working a lot already. I know many who won't even talk to you if the job is projected to be less than $15000. And $15000 would be a single bathroom reno, albeit an upscale one.

I had considered what you suggested, but in the end I realized that it wouldn't actually save me much money given the current situation, but it would cost me a lot in terms of aggravation.

BTW, my basement was finished, but when I bought the house I knew I would eventually renovate it because the basement was done poorly. A few years later I did renovate, and it ended up costing me more than I expected because of some unforeseen expenses, and partially because I decided to put in some expensive features. However, I did factor in that it would cost me a lot more than an initial estimate, so I was OK with that. However, the amount of aggravation it caused was a bit of a surprise to me. I knew it would be aggravating, but didn't realize just how much. To reference the first part of this post again, it did re-emphasize how getting an old home can be so problematic. We had several costs that were the direct result of problems with the initial build from the 50s. Oh and it was interesting to discover empty booze bottles under the floor slab when we dug part of it up to install new sewer lines. I guess those craftsmen really enjoyed their workdays back then.
 
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NoCreativity

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,735
62
91
Please elaborate? I'm looking at a house and considering an FHA loan, mainly for the small amount of down payment needed up front. Part of what turns me off about FHA is the requirement that the buyer live in the house for at least a year. That and the lifetime PMI...

I'm assuming you mean elaborate on the other options. Try credit unions. See if other banks will offer non-FHA loans with less than 20% down. Shop around to see what you can find. I know in other threads people have mentioned various ways of doing it.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
BTW, my basement was finished, but when I bought the house I knew I would eventually renovate it because the basement was done poorly. A few years later I did renovate, and it ended up costing me more than I expected because of some unforeseen expenses, and partially because I decided to put in some expensive features. However, I did factor in that it would cost me a lot more than an initial estimate, so I was OK with that. However, the amount of aggravation it caused was a bit of a surprise to me. I knew it would be aggravating, but didn't realize just how much. To reference the first part of this post again, it did re-emphasize how getting an old home can be so problematic. We had several costs that were the direct result of problems with the initial build from the 50s. Oh and it was interesting to discover empty booze bottles under the floor slab when we dug part of it up to install new sewer lines. I guess those craftsmen really enjoyed their workdays back then.

Yah, old houses are a grab bag. Some are built really well, and some aren't built for shit. Wouldn't pass code, and are ready to fall down by a good huff of the big bad wolf.

As for your booze bottle, that still happens today. Digging in my yard before winter set into to do a little landscape setup come spring and was finding crushed beer cans under the sod they put down. Also, when I opened the valve box for the main water line in my front yard (it's buried in the ground) it was full of beer cans and mad dog 20/20 bottles. Since more houses are being built nearby, I see the workers all day chugging booze while working. Then again, I doubt most of those workers are "documented" all that well. They certainly leave a mess all the time in my yard. Which is one of the fights I'm having with the builder. The other of which is some idiot drove a cement truck through my front yard to set a slab in one of the neighbor lots. Cracked my sidewalk and trenched my front yard doing it too. Again, one of those things I'm fighting with the builder over and my real estate agent is helping me on.