Younger generation mobility at 50 year low

[Texashiker]

Schools are nothing more than facilitators. If you choose to accept that, you learn, if you don't, you can go do something else. That's the real world and has been that way for thousands of years. If you don't like it, accept your position at the bottom or try to work around it. If you aren't smart enough to work around it, then you really have no options.

In other words, sit down, shut up and do as you are told.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

lol, I never had my imagination crushed. Nor was I ever all that great at learning through lecture, but I got better.

Schools are nothing more than facilitators. If you choose to accept that, you learn, if you don't, you can go do something else. That's the real world and has been that way for thousands of years. If you don't like it, accept your position at the bottom or try to work around it. If you aren't smart enough to work around it, then you really have no options.

I beg to differ and the fact you state that someone must "accept their position at the bottom" proves his point that our school system is as closed minded and rigid as your statement when it comes to meeting and addressing the needs of its clients/customers/students.

Which is why the US school system consistently fails so many students and leaves them ill prepared for entry into a college or even the alternative which is a vocational program. No greater proof can be seen then in our current day drop out rates for colleges and horrible math and science scores seen across the country. This is particularly true and most evident in the minority student populations where our school systems have failed them like clockwork for decades.

 

[LegendKiller]

In other words, sit down, shut up and do as you are told.

Isn't that what happens in the real world? In one form or another there is an expectation for the vast majority of people that they work in an organized structure. If you don't want to do that, then go live in the mountains with your rifle and a pet bear ala Grizzley Adams style.

Hell, any person who runs a tech company but didn't complete school, still had to conform in one way or another. It's life.

 

[LegendKiller]

I beg to differ and the fact you state that someone must "accept their position at the bottom" proves his point that our school system is as closed minded and rigid as your statement when it comes to meeting and addressing the needs of its clients/customers/students.

Which is why the US school system consistently fails so many students and leaves them ill prepared for entry into a college or a vocational program. No greater proof can be seen then in our current day drop out rates for colleges and horrible math and science scores, this is particularly true and most evident in the minority student populations where our school systems have failed them like clockwork for decades.

So you think the German, Japanese, Chinese...etc. system is better? ROFL. It's why they come from all over the world to go to our schools, because they learn from an early age to shut up and learn. However, as Americans, a lot of us can't accept that.

It's also why we are falling behind. Their systems are superior in many ways, including the fact that they reserve higher education for the kids that will actually sit there and learn. They siphon the rest off to vocational schools. Why waste the resources?

You see the problem as education, that it is the round hole and all of our kids are square pegs, that it should be whittled to be a square. The problem is that our parents don't give a fuck and would rather blame the school (hole) than themselves.

Education hasn't changed, our society's viewpoint has, and that's why you want to whine about kids and learning.

 

[gingermeggs]

FAR less teens are clamoring to get drivers' licenses as well, leaving it much later. This is because they are infantalized and lack a sense of independence and adventure. They instead communicate via smartphone.

Maybe it's because their parents chauffeur drive them everywhere??? aka "wipe their arses for them".

 

[LegendKiller]

Maybe it's because their parents chauffeur drive them everywhere??? aka "wipe their arses for them".

Agreed. Desperation is the mother of invention.

I discuss it all of the time at work. These people are so afraid of pissing their kids off that they won't make them uncomfortable. At some point Maslow's hierarchy kicks in and survival leads to success. The problem is that our kids are taught that they don't have to worry about survival from an early age.

My dad made it very clear. After 18, if you weren't in school, you were paying rent. When I drove their cars I had to pay for gas. One of the best pieces of education in life I had was when I went to drive my parent's car for the summer it needed new brakes. My dad decided to teach me a lesson and said that if I wanted to drive their 3rd car to work, I needed to buy brakes for it. I whined about it and was pissed since I hadn't driven the car for how many thousands of miles before the brakes went out. I thought he was taking advantage of me but only later did I learn the truth, that he was teaching me that there were no free lunches, that I needed to take responsibility, and that no matter what, you would have to pay for brakes on a used car, or a new one after a few years.

Parents these days would think that lesson is tantamount to child abuse.

 

[gingermeggs]

So you think the German, Japanese, Chinese...etc. system is better? ROFL. It's why they come from all over the world to go to our schools, because they learn from an early age to shut up and learn. However, as Americans, a lot of us can't accept that.

It's also why we are falling behind. Their systems are superior in many ways, including the fact that they reserve higher education for the kids that will actually sit there and learn. They siphon the rest off to vocational schools. Why waste the resources?

You see the problem as education, that it is the round hole and all of our kids are square pegs, that it should be whittled to be a square. The problem is that our parents don't give a fuck and would rather blame the school (hole) than themselves.

Education hasn't changed, our society's viewpoint has, and that's why you want to whine about kids and learning.

+1 this applies to Australia equally, its passing the buck, escape goating- something baby boomers are so very good at. They worked to get money!!! they neglected the children in the process, now they "buy" the love! it's a guilt trip- one that developing countries don't have....

 

[gingermeggs]

Agreed. Desperation of the mother of invention.

I discuss it all of the time at work. These people are so afraid of pissing their kids off that they won't make them uncomfortable. At some point Maslow's hierarchy kicks in and survival leads to success. The problem is that our kids are taught that they don't have to worry about survival from an early age.

My dad made it very clear. After 18, if you weren't in school, you were paying rent. When I drove their cars I had to pay for gas. One of the best pieces of education in life I had was when I went to drive my parent's car for the summer it needed new brakes. My dad decided to teach me a lesson and said that if I wanted to drive their 3rd car to work, I needed to buy brakes for it. I whined about it and was pissed since I hadn't driven the car for how many thousands of miles before the brakes went out. I thought he was taking advantage of me but only later did I learn the truth, that he was teaching me that there were no free lunches, that I needed to take responsibility, and that no matter what, you would have to pay for brakes on a used car, or a new one after a few years.

Parents these days would think that lesson is tantamount to child abuse.

I left home at 17, got a trade(carpenter/joiner) and worked terribly hard to learn the best way of doing things(high end) now often I come close to $100,000 pa and I don't negotiate I do the work and charge for it on completion- I stay small and specialised, and dont train any youngens to compete with! - If I was young today, I would do the opposite of everyone else around me, I would do what I am good at(aptitude for)! Not what I want to do!

Many people today could use a glass of cement, to harden the fuck up!

 

[DucatiMonster696]

So you think the German, Japanese, Chinese...etc. system is better? ROFL. It's why they come from all over the world to go to our schools, because they learn from an early age to shut up and learn. However, as Americans, a lot of us can't accept that.

It's also why we are falling behind. Their systems are superior in many ways, including the fact that they reserve higher education for the kids that will actually sit there and learn. They siphon the rest off to vocational schools. Why waste the resources?

You see the problem as education, that it is the round hole and all of our kids are square pegs, that it should be whittled to be a square. The problem is that our parents don't give a fuck and would rather blame the school (hole) than themselves.

Education hasn't changed, our society's viewpoint has, and that's why you want to whine about kids and learning.

You are ignoring the point I made. They don't go to our public schools, they go to colleges and they succeeded at absurd rate because they are better prepared then US students to attend US colleges. Nevermind that they have a greater motivation succeed because they are paying large sums of money while attending but again they are educationally better able to succeed than many native born US students the vast majority of have attended US public schools.

Additionally even China has acknowledge that the old model of "Shutup and listen" is not adequate for the new generation of students and education needed for the 21st century. Hence why they are preparing and they have taken a cue from nations like the Netherlands who are pushing a completely different model that attempts to actually address the needs of the student first and foremost and stress critical thinking, not drone like obedience.

 

[gingermeggs]

I beg to differ and the fact you state that someone must "accept their position at the bottom" proves his point that our school system is as closed minded and rigid as your statement when it comes to meeting and addressing the needs of its clients/customers/students.

Which is why the US school system consistently fails so many students and leaves them ill prepared for entry into a college or even the alternative which is a vocational program. No greater proof can be seen then in our current day drop out rates for colleges and horrible math and science scores seen across the country. This is particularly true and most evident in the minority student populations where our school systems have failed them like clockwork for decades.

Maybe it's just a lack of male roles models at schools, seems the "poofs and trendies" have cornered the education market, cut the balls off real men and wanna make faeries out of everybody- isn't happening in china or india........what they build with sweat; they sell with sweat!

 

[gingermeggs]

You are ignoring the point I made. They don't go to our public schools, they go to colleges and they succeeded at absurd rate because they are better prepared then US students to attend US colleges. Nevermind that they have a greater motivation succeed because they are paying large sums of money while attending but again they are educationally better able to succeed than many native born US students the vast majority of have attended US public schools.

Additionally even China has acknowledge that the old model of "Shutup and listen" is not adequate for the new generation of students and education needed for the 21st century. Hence why they are preparing and they have taken a cue from nations like the Netherlands who are pushing a completely different model that attempts to actually address the needs of the student first and foremost and stress critical thinking, not drone like obedience.

Gee the dutch are doing so well!!!!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101025012

show me any evidence the Chinese or Indians are following the dutch education system???
Seems like the dutch are taking the cue from the Chinese education system and giving more emphasis on engineering, sciences, mathematics and trades.
ps- get a real bike!

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Maybe it's just a lack of male roles models at schools, seems the "poofs and trendies" have corner the education market and wanna make faeries out of everybody- isn't happening in china or india........what they build with sweat; they sell with sweat!

Male role models at school IMHO irrelevant and pointless. If there is a need for a male role model in a kid's life it is best seen at home in their household not school.

Additionally our educational system has not changed much since its first inception in 1870's but our society, economy, technology and our understanding of how individuals learn has changed dramatically and tremendously since that time. You don't think that maybe, just maybe we need to update things a bit and this lame brain, ignoramus view that "beatings will continue until moral increases" approach to education is flawed?

Or that maybe just maybe we've created a system that is more a benefit to its employees and less of a benefit to its customers/clients/students who are forced to attend accept what they are given? There is a reason our public education system is failing so many students and there is a clear and well known reasons why a college education has been driven up, i.e. in both cases government action in one area and government inaction in the latter case.

 

[gingermeggs]

Male role models at school IMHO irrelevant and pointless. If there is a need for a male role model in a kid's life it is best seen at home in their household not school.

Additionally our educational system has not changed much since its first inception in 1870's but our society, economy, technology and our understanding of how individuals learn has changed dramatically and tremendously since that time. You don't think that maybe, just maybe we need to update things a bit and this lame brain, ignoramus view that "beatings will continue until moral increases" approach to education is flawed?

Or that maybe just maybe we've created a system that is more a benefit to its employees and less of a benefit to its customers/clients/students who are forced to attend accept what they are given? There is a reason our public education system is failing so many students and there is a clear and well known reasons why a college education has been driven up, i.e. in both cases government action in one area and government inaction in the latter case.

More of a case of the standard of the employees and the public systems tend to seed themselves; thus degenerating standards. It's just too easy to get a teaching degree today!!!! WE???? don't blame me I had nothing to do with it- I would be ashamed to be apart of such a disgraceful waste of young peoples time. Seem like the Corporate sector will train people for themselves soon enough(trades work like that), can't count on government for nothing except taxes!!! Too many people have a hand in the pot and contribute nothing. Whats really needed is deregulation......
Spare the rod and spoil the child!

BTW- 1 in 8 children(in the west) are brought up with out a male parent in their lives......little wonder boys are doing so poorly at schools, filled with female teachers(80% of teachers are women) who put more effort/have more ability with the girls.

What also needs to be addressed is the income streams to industries which actually create saleable product- seems the American system(western system) only cares about wall street and investment bankers. Maybe we need some regulations there???? but wtf I am only a carpenter(who earns more then a degree engineer! it's all been done before!!!)

 

[1prophet]

 

[Texashiker]

Isn't that what happens in the real world? In one form or another there is an expectation for the vast majority of people that they work in an organized structure. If you don't want to do that, then go live in the mountains with your rifle and a pet bear ala Grizzley Adams style.

The difference between a school and a job, I can walk out on my job and find a new one.

If I do not like the career I am in, I can find a new one.

You can do neither one with a school.

If I do not like something my boss tells me, I can tell him to piss off and walk out. Try doing that in high school or even in college.

Considering not all students learn the same way, yea, schools should be held responsible.

 

[Engineer]

Considering not all students learn the same way, yea, schools should be held responsible.

Then they shouldn't all be lumped together (i.e. no child left behind) then.

 

[Texashiker]

Then they shouldn't all be lumped together (i.e. no child left behind) then.

I fully agree.

There was once a time when a young adult could drop out of school and go to work in a factory, steel mill, ship yard,,, and still afford to buy a home and raise a family.

Today, those jobs are in china.

The people who were not inclined to further their education are being left behind in a changing job market. Its not that they are lazy, or not willing to work, they just can not find a job to suit them.

 

[waggy]

Male role models at school IMHO irrelevant and pointless. If there is a need for a male role model in a kid's life it is best seen at home in their household not school.

I agree 100%.

Additionally our educational system has not changed much since its first inception in 1870's but our society, economy, technology and our understanding of how individuals learn has changed dramatically and tremendously since that time. You don't think that maybe, just maybe we need to update things a bit and this lame brain, ignoramus view that "beatings will continue until moral increases" approach to education is flawed?

I slightly disagree on this. sure it hasn't changed much. I do think many of the "new" ways of teaching has harmed students. Unfortanatly i switched schools a lot. I have been in schools that seemed stuck in the 50's (besides dress heh) I learned the most from them. I have also been in schools that were "free" as in no class's no structure etc. it seemed like a total waste.

having 2 young kids i see the homework they and how the school teaches. Until Common core and they were forced to change books/style etc i loved HOW they taught the kids. In math it was how i learned the best. lots of memorization, homework etc.

When it came to state/national testing my daughter was in the 95% for state and 90% for nation. she was getting nearly straight A's (except in Spanish).

Now with the new books and common core she is struggling in some areas.

My son (7) is actually doing really well. Though for the previous 2 years they thought he had ADD or something. We were tired of fighting and had major testing done and found out it was he has a higher then normal IQ and just bored. the teacher now (the 2nd and 3rd grade classes are together) i pushing him hard.

Or that maybe just maybe we've created a system that is more a benefit to its employees and less of a benefit to its customers/clients/students who are forced to attend accept what they are given? There is a reason our public education system is failing so many students and there is a clear and well known reasons why a college education has been driven up, i.e. in both cases government action in one area and government inaction in the latter case.

/this

look at the schools in Chicago. they are failing. many schools are losing students and half less then 1/4th needed to keep it open. YET the teachers union is forcing them to stay open? even though the students are failing and not going.

I also feel school has went from a idea of teaching the kids as well as we can. To how can we keep our jobs? in college its even worse. its how much can we make from each student? from the bookstore to insane classes.


both high school and college have far far to many hours needed. some of the classes are insane.

 

[BoberFett]

Dont you just love that "no, but,,,,,."

There an untold number of parents who are chained to their jobs just because of the insurance.

Uhhhh, you know that other jobs provide insurance too. Why is anyone chained to a job for insurance? I guess they're chained to their job to pay for food, clothing and shelter too. Oh noez!!!!

 

[ch33zw1z]

Uhhhh, you know that other jobs provide insurance too. Why is anyone chained to a job for insurance? I guess they're chained to their job to pay for food, clothing and shelter too. Oh noez!!!!

Not all insurances are created equal. I do agree with the rest of what you said though...

 

[Agent11]

So you think the German, Japanese, Chinese...etc. system is better? ROFL. It's why they come from all over the world to go to our schools, because they learn from an early age to shut up and learn. However, as Americans, a lot of us can't accept that.

It's also why we are falling behind. Their systems are superior in many ways, including the fact that they reserve higher education for the kids that will actually sit there and learn. They siphon the rest off to vocational schools. Why waste the resources?

You see the problem as education, that it is the round hole and all of our kids are square pegs, that it should be whittled to be a square. The problem is that our parents don't give a fuck and would rather blame the school (hole) than themselves.

Education hasn't changed, our society's viewpoint has, and that's why you want to whine about kids and learning.

I think we could do a better job identifying and catering to both the round and square pegs. . . Making sure they reach their appropriate holes.

 

[Texashiker]

Uhhhh, you know that other jobs provide insurance too. Why is anyone chained to a job for insurance? I guess they're chained to their job to pay for food, clothing and shelter too. Oh noez!!!!

Some insurance companies have (or had) a one year wait before you could file claims on a preexisting condition.

 

[PrinceofWands]

And that is why kids are getting junk degrees that will never pay for themselves.

Good for them...that's how humanity happens.

 

[PrinceofWands]

You think people work in coal mines because its fun?

You think people go work in subzero temperatures in North Dakota to pump oil because its fun?

No, and that's why they eat, drink, drug, fuck, and otherwise kill themselves at young ages. Better to just do it directly before making some greedy asshole a buttload of money off your misery.

Or you can either: do something you enjoy, or put absolutely no focus into collecting a paycheck and instead do what you love on your own and be happy with whatever source of income you find. Which is what life is supposed to be in my opinion.

I have several degrees or partial degrees, and am working on more constantly. None have anything to do with how I make money. All (except maybe the one general transfer AA) make me a better person, and happier for having obtained the knowledge. Of course, most were paid for by grant and scholarship, but I've sunk $20-30k of my own as well. Money well spent. I know people that waste that much on a car.

 

[Exterous]

It seems to be that a lot of articles like to sensationalize the tough road that Americans are facing today. A kindergarden teacher going for a doctorate? Feel bad for his $100,000 in loans even though the average 4 year degree costs under $30,000.

Now - don't get me wrong student loans are a huge problem thats is facing our country and will only get worse but the news articles play it up by reporting people who are getting massive loans for degrees that are usually at small private colleges. They probably do it because it panders to the 'my life is so hard' people while distracting those with at least minimal critical thinking skills ($100,000 and you want to get a doctorate in education WHY?????)

Still - its more than just schools and parents pushing college education. Sure not everyone should get a degree but companies are demanding degrees for their applicants. Jobs with 4 year degrees still make ~2x as much as non-degree jobs and the job market created ~2 million 4 year degree jobs while non-degreed labor is still down ~5 million jobs. Yeah that should change and skilled labor needs to be valued more but are you going to risk your kid's future or your school's reputation to try and change society? Not many will.

and this is why I harangue my BF for watching HGTV all it does it stoke up envy for things most people can't afford (I love all the couples who end up rejecting houses because the master bathroom just isn't big enough or only has one sink.... fuck, I grew up in a house that only had one bathroom for the entire household and we all seemed to manage fine)

Well - the people on the show already bought the house they end up with so they have to come up with ideas for why they turn down the other two options. Didn't your BF always wonder how they always got the house they wanted? (Inspections or financing never falls through, better offer etc)