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You too can help build a fence to drasticallly decrease ILLEGAL Immigration

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Originally posted by: Witling
Ah EZ, we cross swords again. You said,
The stat came from a speech President Bush gave in Arizona in which he stated that since the begining of his Presidency, they have intercepted 350,000 illegals with criminal records out of a total of 4.5 million they caught trying to enter the country.
Is this the same guy who told us that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? That they'd be welcoming us with flowers? That everything is OK in Iraq? That President Bush?

Actually, if you want to get technical about it, they're all criminals.

Hey, if you have a link that says different, let's see it.

Edit: I found this link that says 30,000 out of 680,000 arrested from may to dec of '04 were ran through a new fingerprinting device and found to be in the FBI database. That would be 4.4%.

Criminals at Border Thwarted by Own Hands

The fingerprints of all detained illegal immigrants are now matched against the FBI's national criminal database installed at all 137 Border Patrol staions along the Mexican and Canadian borders.
 
Originally posted by: Amplifier
Better solution: Land mines.

If possible, that is an even dumber solution that the idea of a big fence that costs $23 million dollars. We can't mine certain areas because people live there, so those would become the border crossing points. And if we don't put up signs or warnings (or people ignore them) we'll end up looking like the bad guys. At the very least we have the moral high ground, when we start killing and maiming illegal immigrants, we'll lose even that.

Edit: In case anyone was wondering, I think the fence idea is stupid because it won't work, and it will cost several times more than $23 million to build and maintain it.
 
We can launch shuttle in space, land on the moon, but we can't secure our own border?

How is it that other countries in the world are able to secure their border then?

Something doesn't sound right.


 
Originally posted by: babylon5
We can launch shuttle in space, land on the moon, but we can't secure our own border?

How is it that other countries in the world are able to secure their border then?

Something doesn't sound right.

This isn't a hard concept. Well, actually it is, because like the dumbasses we are, we're looking at the problem all wrong. The main "solutions" right now are being proposed by militant guys who think the only way to eliminate illegal immigration is with bombs, guns, walls, mines, or some other form of force applied to the internal organs of the illegal immigrants.

But this appears to be stupid in the extreme when you look at, as you suggest, what other countries are doing. After all, lots of countries share borders with each other, but few have the same level of illegal immigration issues that we do. And it's not because they have well-armed civilians standing on the border ready to shoot any Mexicans they happen to see, it's because there is much lower demand for illegal immigration. We really can't compare ourselves to other countries, because we are somewhat unique in our situation.

We are a first world country that is slowly but surely moving away from blue collar type jobs, especially labor intensive service work and manufacturing. Much of that is being outsourced to countries like China, but service work in particular can't be outsourced totally, so we still have a demand for low wage, low skilled workers for many jobs in this country, jobs that the American workforce is orienting itself away from. We also have generally good worker protection laws, which we all know are the bane of any serious capitalist. But lucky for us, we have a nice 3rd world country right to the south of us, ready to fill the demand for illegal, low wage workers. There isn't a problem with white collar workers from Canada coming in and taking our high skilled jobs (well, except perhaps in the field of acting) because there isn't the same kind of supply and demand. Other countries do not have similar situations, for the most part, at least not with their geographical neighbors. Every first world country has some of this, but very few actually border a country like Mexico.

Walls and guns and cameras and land mines are not going to solve the problem any more than arresting drug dealers is going to end the drug problem in this country. The real cause of the problem isn't that we don't protect the border well enough, protecting a border in the middle of the desert that's almost 2000 miles long is very difficult no matter how much money you throw at the problem. Poorly protected borders don't cause illegal immigration, they simply allow it to happen. Our best bet is to fix the problem, not simply slap a band-aid on it. One extremely helpful thing would be to drastically increase the penalties for EMPLOYERS that hire illegals. Throwing the illegals in prison isn't going to help, because there are a lot more where they came from. But if you remove the demand by throwing business owners in jail (something that's far easier to do), you remove the incentive for the illegals in the first place. And even beyond that, if we could change the underlying issues that caused the business owners to hire illegals in the first place, that would be a big improvement.

Why is it that when we are faced with large, compelx issues, our only solution is "build a wall" or "shoot somebody"?
 
Rainsford I agree with you. Business owners are the real bad guys in this whole thing, they pay low wages to foreigners and cheat fellow citizen with decent wages.

Problem is, our government's politicans catered to business interests, big and small, whether it's Walmart or your local restaurant. Our politicans won't pass laws to throw their deep pocket patrons in jail. I just don't see it happening this time. Business owners have our politicans in thier pocket.

This fence idea might not work. But at least they're trying something. Otherwise, we the #1 country in the world, just give up, and keep our border open. God knows how many terrorists pay coyotes and sneak in here for another 9/11. How'd that do to our economy then.
 
EZ, "In the FBI database." So what, as a former military person I'm in the FBI database. I think credentialed teachers are fingerprinted. They're in the FBI database. And as for that old CesnaFlyer, the assertion wasn't that there were "weapons programs," wihich is the term he uses in his post, it was that there were [actual] weapons. But the CesnaFlyer says it all when he says,
Things are going very well in Iraq, they had an election!
You could argue with that statement but what would be the point. Anybody who thinks things are fine in Iraq isn't going to be convinced by argument. Yes, they had an election four month's ago. Too bad they can't form a government.
 
Originally posted by: Witling
EZ, "In the FBI database." So what, as a former military person I'm in the FBI database. I think credentialed teachers are fingerprinted. They're in the FBI database.

Read the article, it's their CRIMINAL database. :roll:

From the first paragraph:

SAD DIEGO---The US Border Patrol has arrested tens of thousands of people with criminal records, including suspected murders, rapists and child molesters, since the agency last year installed a fingerprinting system that identifies criminals among the 1 million illegal migrants apprehended annually........
.
.
The finger prints of all detained illegal immmigrants are now matched against the FBI's national criminal database

They're catching 1 million a year now?? That's not counting the ones who get through. The problem is obviously out of hand. We need to fine the hell out of the people employing illegals and as far as I'm concerned we need to build a fence also. I know a fence is defeatable, but it will slow them down as a quick fix until we can decide exactly what to do with the illegals.
 
Originally posted by: babylon5
Rainsford I agree with you. Business owners are the real bad guys in this whole thing, they pay low wages to foreigners and cheat fellow citizen with decent wages.

Problem is, our government's politicans catered to business interests, big and small, whether it's Walmart or your local restaurant. Our politicans won't pass laws to throw their deep pocket patrons in jail. I just don't see it happening this time. Business owners have our politicans in thier pocket.

This fence idea might not work. But at least they're trying something. Otherwise, we the #1 country in the world, just give up, and keep our border open. God knows how many terrorists pay coyotes and sneak in here for another 9/11. How'd that do to our economy then.

You do have a point, getting congress and the rest of the government to crack down on companies breaking the law will be difficult, perhaps a less ideal solution is necessary.

However, I think it's important to actually look at the real problem and not confuse illegal immigration with the threat of terrorism. Sure, there IS a potential threat to terrorists sneaking into the country, but the way they do it is quite different from how some poor Mexican does it. Measures that stop 99% of people coming illegally into the country probably wouldn't keep out any but the dumbest terrorist. In fact, I'm not convinced we CAN set up a border that's secure from someone who knows what they are doing.

Illegal immigration is a problem all by itself, I see no reason to throw on the idea that we're fighting terrorism as well...especially since I don't really think we are.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: babylon5
Rainsford I agree with you. Business owners are the real bad guys in this whole thing, they pay low wages to foreigners and cheat fellow citizen with decent wages.

Problem is, our government's politicans catered to business interests, big and small, whether it's Walmart or your local restaurant. Our politicans won't pass laws to throw their deep pocket patrons in jail. I just don't see it happening this time. Business owners have our politicans in thier pocket.

This fence idea might not work. But at least they're trying something. Otherwise, we the #1 country in the world, just give up, and keep our border open. God knows how many terrorists pay coyotes and sneak in here for another 9/11. How'd that do to our economy then.

You do have a point, getting congress and the rest of the government to crack down on companies breaking the law will be difficult, perhaps a less ideal solution is necessary.

However, I think it's important to actually look at the real problem and not confuse illegal immigration with the threat of terrorism. Sure, there IS a potential threat to terrorists sneaking into the country, but the way they do it is quite different from how some poor Mexican does it. Measures that stop 99% of people coming illegally into the country probably wouldn't keep out any but the dumbest terrorist. In fact, I'm not convinced we CAN set up a border that's secure from someone who knows what they are doing.

Illegal immigration is a problem all by itself, I see no reason to throw on the idea that we're fighting terrorism as well...especially since I don't really think we are.

If terrorists want in bad enough, they will find a way, however securing the border better wouldn't hurt anything. I don't really worry about "terrorists" coming in along the border as much as I do what they might bring with them across that border. If we have over 600,000 plus illegals sneaking in yearly, that tells me it's pretty wide open.

We are also letting serious criminals come in, so you have to consider that aspect. They aren't coming here for a job. If we are really, seriously, finally going to do something about illegals, we need to attack the problem on multiple levels.
 
Hey, we pay taxes - I'm not going to waste my own money when the money I give to the government is already wasted on "national WMD security threats"...etc
 
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