You think your wars are expensive?

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Dec 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Agriculture.

That's a really bad commodity to base your economy on. Unless you want ridiculously slow growth. Agriculture is important, but it should be a small group providing food for the urban population which works in manufacturing or a growing white-collar industry.

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.

I think that's the case with some people, but watching the news in the US, it doesn't seem like the Islamic world is doing much to denounce these extremists. If they are, that's good, and they should get the word out more. I personally don't have a problem with any people of faith, unless they try to a) kill me; or b) force their religion onto me.

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
All we get is a few million dollars in F16 upgrades that we don't really need. What we need is for the money to come into the market. Not in some fast-depreciating F16s that we don't even need! We really don't need F16s against India when we have nukes. What we need is new trade routes. What we need is to get rid of guns. What we need is to stop treating this like a war and rather as a civil law and order situation. Lets start by by paying $10,000 to anyone who gives up his guns. It'll be cheaper and more efficient.

Nukes aren't the answer to a fight with India. If you were to get in another war with India, it would never be with nuclear weapons. You'd have to be an idiot to think that they'd be used in a conventional war over a strip of land.

With so many guns lying around the region, spending $10,000 per gun would be a waste of money. You're better off spending that money on paying lower-level government officials more money to cut down on corruption while at the same time punishing corruption harder and publicly. Also spending that money in the more lawless areas of Pakistan would be a good start. Use the military to build a semblance that Pakistan actually controlls the region and build infrastructure (roads, telephone lines, etc...) into the region to make it easier to control and make the people want to be a part of the country (hopefully).
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I do agree that treating it like an actual war has problems...especially insider your own country.

How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.
I would say that most Americans have a slight to significantly unfavorable view of Muslims. But, then if we compare Muslim with Western nations we see the have nots and the haves, the countries with what we consider backass laws, poor scientific discovery, oppression, etc. with its antithesis, so is it really surprising that Islam is not well received? It seems in direct contradiction to what many laud the west for.
 

Baked

Lifer
Dec 28, 2004
36,052
17
81
Just bend over and let India annex you and call it a day. All of you guys have the same grand daddy anyway.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I do agree that treating it like an actual war has problems...especially insider your own country.

How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.
I would say that most Americans have a slight to significantly unfavorable view of Muslims. But, then if we compare Muslim with Western nations we see the have nots and the haves, the countries with what we consider backass laws, poor scientific discovery, oppression, etc. with its antithesis, so is it really surprising that Islam is not well received? It seems in direct contradiction to what many laud the west for.

Well said. And that's where America's claim of being tolerant go down the drain. It's America that has started this cycle of hatred. Yes OBL attacked the twin towers and many other western target over the years but OBL was hated by everyone. Atleast amongst your population, contrary to what you claim you have ignited hatred against us. We are the oppressed. You ask any muslim around the world - progressive, backward, rich, poor, educated or uneducated he is likely to have an unfavorably view of the west. I've been to many countries and am saying it based on experience. And I think are anti-western views are justified. We denounce OBL. You don't denounce your aggressive policies against us.

And the Islam I know is different from what they show you on TV. The ball is in your court and has ever been since WW1. While I probably hate the taliban and their actions more than you, American foreign policy can go to hell.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Baked
Just bend over and let India annex you and call it a day. All of you guys have the same grand daddy anyway.

You really have no idea about how muslims are still treated in India. You give too much credit to India. I don't think any of you here has ever been there. Despite being a Pakistani I get to visit once a year and when I'm back I'm glad to be back. State sponsored terrorism from India kills more muslims than your bombs.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
TGB's posts are getting tiresome.

I'm tired of being diplomatic. I vote for leveling the country and burying our nuclear waste there.

I'm not.
I think we need more Pakastani posters.
That said I wonder if TGB actually is in Pakistan or just a Pakistani resettled elsewhere?

I'm from Karachi and living there with no plans of moving.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
TGB's posts are getting tiresome.

I'm tired of being diplomatic. I vote for leveling the country and burying our nuclear waste there.

I wonder what the posters here would have said if I said I vote for leveleling Israel?
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,548
14,943
146
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
TGB's posts are getting tiresome.

I'm tired of being diplomatic. I vote for leveling the country and burying our nuclear waste there.

I wonder what the posters here would have said if I said I vote for leveleling Israel?

There are more than just a few of us who are so tired of the whole Middle East hornet's nest that leveling the ENTIRE region has it's appeal.
Turn it ALL into a permanently lit, glass covered parking lot with nothing sticking up above ground except American Oil wells...

The Muslims hate the Israeli's so they keep shit stirred up.

The Israeli's hate the Muslims, so they keep shit stirred up.

The Muslims seem to hate anyone who is NOT Muslim...so they keep more shit stirred up.

Just sanitize the whole area and get it over with.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
TGB's posts are getting tiresome.

I'm tired of being diplomatic. I vote for leveling the country and burying our nuclear waste there.

I wonder what the posters here would have said if I said I vote for leveleling Israel?

That would be a non sequitur.

Which for you is not uncommon.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...eaches+new+heights+aah

To be spending 1/60th of the economy per year on someone else's war is ridiculous. Damn the politicians who for filling their pockets are robbing the country of peace, security, honor and money. About time we tell the Americans: Pay fully for our war or we are out!
What would be the basis for your economy if there were no external political and religious forces pushing and pulling at Pakistan? Glass manufacturing?

Agriculture.
I would hardly think that you would want to use poppy production as an argument against geo-political forces that brings in billions of legitimate dollars to your economy. Like it or not, internal and external political strife in your country is what feeds your countrymen. Absolutely no way pakistan could sustain itself on its own production.

 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
You could also just let us fight in the mountainous regions if your country doesn't want to foot the bill for hunting down Al-Qaeda at the Taliban that are hiding there.

We don't trust you enough for letting you do that. In fact the average Pakistan hates America with all his heart. And all that because of Bush's stupidity.

The average Pakistani's opinion doesn't mean shit.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
...someone else's war...
It seems to me that it's quite clearly your war as well. Unless, of course, you ignore the thousands upon thousands of civilians the Taliban, and others, have murdered in your country during the last decade... :confused:

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
We denounce OBL.
If that were true, you wouldn't have let him live in your country for more than seven years now... I'd expect you to rally everyone you know to hunt him down and kill him. After all, he's living in your backyard!.

I think you're lying. I think that you believe OBL is an Islamic hero.

If Pakistan would stop exporting terror, we would leave.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I do agree that treating it like an actual war has problems...especially insider your own country.

How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.

Well we do have a number of Muslims here in America, and while there are a few Americans that seem to hate all Muslims, I think the problem is more with the parts of the world with a large Muslim majority. There are a lot of Muslims around the world, and I think the average American knows that there are a lot of good Muslims everywhere...but when it comes to the "Muslim world", the average American is going to think of places like Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. While there are certainly good Muslims there as well, the average American has never BEEN to those countries, and exposure to them is mostly in extremely negative terms. That might be a little unfair, but none of those countries is exactly a good example of what Islam can be, especially when you consider what other cultures most Westerners are exposed to. Our blood enemies in WWII are now close allies that sell us high quality cars and electronics.

I will admit that Islam is probably not as well understood as it could be in the US, but Islam and the Middle East are tied together in our minds...and I think you'd agree that the Middle East has a lot of serious problems that aren't being addressed. I don't think it's our job to "fix" your part of the world, but it doesn't give the US a very good impression.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I do agree that treating it like an actual war has problems...especially insider your own country.

How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.
I would say that most Americans have a slight to significantly unfavorable view of Muslims. But, then if we compare Muslim with Western nations we see the have nots and the haves, the countries with what we consider backass laws, poor scientific discovery, oppression, etc. with its antithesis, so is it really surprising that Islam is not well received? It seems in direct contradiction to what many laud the west for.

Well said. And that's where America's claim of being tolerant go down the drain. It's America that has started this cycle of hatred. Yes OBL attacked the twin towers and many other western target over the years but OBL was hated by everyone. Atleast amongst your population, contrary to what you claim you have ignited hatred against us. We are the oppressed. You ask any muslim around the world - progressive, backward, rich, poor, educated or uneducated he is likely to have an unfavorably view of the west. I've been to many countries and am saying it based on experience. And I think are anti-western views are justified. We denounce OBL. You don't denounce your aggressive policies against us.

And the Islam I know is different from what they show you on TV. The ball is in your court and has ever been since WW1. While I probably hate the taliban and their actions more than you, American foreign policy can go to hell.

How are we oppressing Pakistan, or any other country in the Middle East for that matter? Some of our politicians and pundits might SAY unkind things about you, but we have got to be among the least aggressive world powers in history. I think we've made mistakes in the Middle East, but consider the alternative. Our foreign policy has its problems, but consider it from our point of view...we have got NOTHING but grief from the Middle East. If anyone there EVER liked us, I sure as hell don't remember it. I can certainly understand a mistrust for the United States and the west in general in the Middle East, but the violent dislike seems totally our of proportion to our foreign policy there.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
...someone else's war...
It seems to me that it's quite clearly your war as well. Unless, of course, you ignore the thousands upon thousands of civilians the Taliban, and others, have murdered in your country during the last decade... :confused:

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
We denounce OBL.
If that were true, you wouldn't have let him live in your country for more than seven years now... I'd expect you to rally everyone you know to hunt him down and kill him. After all, he's living in your backyard!.

I think you're lying. I think that you believe OBL is an Islamic hero.

If Pakistan would stop exporting terror, we would leave.

palehorse is exactly right. We are totally justified in our actions taken against OBL and his allies, and if we don't have that great a relationship with other countries in the Middle East, it might be because they seem more like allies of OBL than allies of the US. TGB, you complain that the US treats Pakistan somewhat poorly sometimes...but what have you done to demonstrate that you're our allies?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I do agree that treating it like an actual war has problems...especially insider your own country.

How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.
I would say that most Americans have a slight to significantly unfavorable view of Muslims. But, then if we compare Muslim with Western nations we see the have nots and the haves, the countries with what we consider backass laws, poor scientific discovery, oppression, etc. with its antithesis, so is it really surprising that Islam is not well received? It seems in direct contradiction to what many laud the west for.

Well said. And that's where America's claim of being tolerant go down the drain. It's America that has started this cycle of hatred. Yes OBL attacked the twin towers and many other western target over the years but OBL was hated by everyone. Atleast amongst your population, contrary to what you claim you have ignited hatred against us. We are the oppressed. You ask any muslim around the world - progressive, backward, rich, poor, educated or uneducated he is likely to have an unfavorably view of the west. I've been to many countries and am saying it based on experience. And I think are anti-western views are justified. We denounce OBL. You don't denounce your aggressive policies against us.

And the Islam I know is different from what they show you on TV. The ball is in your court and has ever been since WW1. While I probably hate the taliban and their actions more than you, American foreign policy can go to hell.
Many people in the West thing that its foreign policy is counterproductive and beligerent and I sure do. I am very hopeful tha Obama puts the nation back on a better course, because the past several years have been injurious to every country that the US has touched; its administration has been that bad. I still think that people look for scapegoats to simplify their lives and redirect anger, and that goes for everybody across the planet. In Pakistan's case I can only guess that its internal problems are caused more by its internals than the US or other outside influences.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
It appears Pakistan needs to learn the art of bribery. It can work wonders if properly applied, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than war.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It appears Pakistan needs to learn the art of bribery. It can work wonders if properly applied, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than war.

I don't think there is any country in the world that knows this art better than them. Except that the politicians are at the receiving end instead
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
...someone else's war...
It seems to me that it's quite clearly your war as well. Unless, of course, you ignore the thousands upon thousands of civilians the Taliban, and others, have murdered in your country during the last decade... :confused:

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
We denounce OBL.
If that were true, you wouldn't have let him live in your country for more than seven years now... I'd expect you to rally everyone you know to hunt him down and kill him. After all, he's living in your backyard!.

I think you're lying. I think that you believe OBL is an Islamic hero.

If Pakistan would stop exporting terror, we would leave.

palehorse is exactly right. We are totally justified in our actions taken against OBL and his allies, and if we don't have that great a relationship with other countries in the Middle East, it might be because they seem more like allies of OBL than allies of the US. TGB, you complain that the US treats Pakistan somewhat poorly sometimes...but what have you done to demonstrate that you're our allies?

This useless war that's gonna cost us more than $100bn? Our bases? Our supply routes? Without that you would have all but lost this war. That's pretty much all we can do I'm afraid. Your turn to replicate our gesture by helping us now when we're in trouble. Economic trouble. Sad part is not even China is willing to help us by giving us a loan from their huge sum of foreign reserves.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
...someone else's war...
It seems to me that it's quite clearly your war as well. Unless, of course, you ignore the thousands upon thousands of civilians the Taliban, and others, have murdered in your country during the last decade... :confused:

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
We denounce OBL.
If that were true, you wouldn't have let him live in your country for more than seven years now... I'd expect you to rally everyone you know to hunt him down and kill him. After all, he's living in your backyard!.

I think you're lying. I think that you believe OBL is an Islamic hero.

If Pakistan would stop exporting terror, we would leave.

palehorse is exactly right. We are totally justified in our actions taken against OBL and his allies, and if we don't have that great a relationship with other countries in the Middle East, it might be because they seem more like allies of OBL than allies of the US. TGB, you complain that the US treats Pakistan somewhat poorly sometimes...but what have you done to demonstrate that you're our allies?

This useless war that's gonna cost us more than $100bn? Our bases? Our supply routes? Without that you would have all but lost this war. That's pretty much all we can do I'm afraid. Your turn to replicate our gesture by helping us now when we're in trouble. Economic trouble. Sad part is not even China is willing to help us by giving us a loan from their huge sum of foreign reserves.

If Pakistan wanted to help they would have helped us at Bora Bora by doing their best to seal off their boarder from escaping terrorists, no?

It seems your government only wants to continue the conflict as long as possible while YOUR politicians profit from the deaths on their own innocent people and as long as people like you continue to wring your hands and blame everything on outside influences no amount of aid from anybody is going to change anything.
 

KGB

Diamond Member
May 11, 2000
3,042
0
0
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
...someone else's war...
It seems to me that it's quite clearly your war as well. Unless, of course, you ignore the thousands upon thousands of civilians the Taliban, and others, have murdered in your country during the last decade... :confused:

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
We denounce OBL.
If that were true, you wouldn't have let him live in your country for more than seven years now... I'd expect you to rally everyone you know to hunt him down and kill him. After all, he's living in your backyard!.

I think you're lying. I think that you believe OBL is an Islamic hero.

If Pakistan would stop exporting terror, we would leave.

palehorse is exactly right. We are totally justified in our actions taken against OBL and his allies, and if we don't have that great a relationship with other countries in the Middle East, it might be because they seem more like allies of OBL than allies of the US. TGB, you complain that the US treats Pakistan somewhat poorly sometimes...but what have you done to demonstrate that you're our allies?

This useless war that's gonna cost us more than $100bn? Our bases? Our supply routes? Without that you would have all but lost this war. That's pretty much all we can do I'm afraid. Your turn to replicate our gesture by helping us now when we're in trouble. Economic trouble. Sad part is not even China is willing to help us by giving us a loan from their huge sum of foreign reserves.

If Pakistan wanted to help they would have helped us at Bora Bora by doing their best to seal off their boarder from escaping terrorists, no?

It seems your government only wants to continue the conflict as long as possible while YOUR politicians profit from the deaths on their own innocent people and as long as people like you continue to wring your hands and blame everything on outside influences no amount of aid from anybody is going to change anything.

TGB: While I won't pretend to speak for others, I hope you don't take the negativity expressed here personally. I applaud your participation here and welcome more diversity on these forums. Here on ATP&N this negativity tends to feed on itself and not only stifles meaningful dialogue but also breeds negativity in reciprocation. Kind of like Bush's foreign policy.

Now to my point: yes, our country gives much in foreign aid to Pakistan and yes, some of it is wasted in corruption and bad policy. I agree that this so-called "GWoT" should NOT be treated as a war but more as an international criminal program. Think of Interpol but with cooperation between our nations on both the law enforcement (FBI) and intelligence (CIA) levels. Which brings me to this question: Why won't the Pakistanis clean up the ISI? It has been widely reported by numerous international news sources that corruption within the ISI has directly contributed to prolonging and perhaps sabotaging the hunt for OBL.
I know since Musharraf has left your new government is still in it's "honeymoon" period but a thorough review and cleaning of the ISI would go a long way in building international confidence in your country's commitment to getting OBL and being a bona-fide player against extremism.



 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I do agree that treating it like an actual war has problems...especially insider your own country.

How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.
I would say that most Americans have a slight to significantly unfavorable view of Muslims. But, then if we compare Muslim with Western nations we see the have nots and the haves, the countries with what we consider backass laws, poor scientific discovery, oppression, etc. with its antithesis, so is it really surprising that Islam is not well received? It seems in direct contradiction to what many laud the west for.

Well said. And that's where America's claim of being tolerant go down the drain. It's America that has started this cycle of hatred. Yes OBL attacked the twin towers and many other western target over the years but OBL was hated by everyone. Atleast amongst your population, contrary to what you claim you have ignited hatred against us. We are the oppressed. You ask any muslim around the world - progressive, backward, rich, poor, educated or uneducated he is likely to have an unfavorably view of the west. I've been to many countries and am saying it based on experience. And I think are anti-western views are justified. We denounce OBL. You don't denounce your aggressive policies against us.

And the Islam I know is different from what they show you on TV. The ball is in your court and has ever been since WW1. While I probably hate the taliban and their actions more than you, American foreign policy can go to hell.

lol keep up your propaganda.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...eaches+new+heights+aah

To be spending 1/60th of the economy per year on someone else's war is ridiculous. Damn the politicians who for filling their pockets are robbing the country of peace, security, honor and money. About time we tell the Americans: Pay fully for our war or we are out!
It would seem your government is inclined to believe that this is your war as well. They know what is good for your country. The United States and Pakistan reached tacit agreement in September on a don't-ask-don't-tell policy that allows unmanned Predator aircraft to attack suspected terrorist targets in rugged western Pakistan,
Pakistan and U.S. Have Tacit Deal On Airstrikes

By Karen DeYoung and Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, November 16, 2008; A01



The United States and Pakistan reached tacit agreement in September on a don't-ask-don't-tell policy that allows unmanned Predator aircraft to attack suspected terrorist targets in rugged western Pakistan, according to senior officials in both countries. In recent months, the U.S. drones have fired missiles at Pakistani soil at an average rate of once every four or five days.

The officials described the deal as one in which the U.S. government refuses to publicly acknowledge the attacks while Pakistan's government continues to complain noisily about the politically sensitive strikes.

The arrangement coincided with a suspension of ground assaults into Pakistan by helicopter-borne U.S. commandos. Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said in an interview last week that he was aware of no ground attacks since one on Sept. 3 that his government vigorously protested.

Officials described the attacks, using new technology and improved intelligence, as a significant improvement in the fight against Pakistan-based al-Qaeda and Taliban forces. Officials confirmed the deaths of at least three senior al-Qaeda figures in strikes last month.

Zardari said that he receives "no prior notice" of the airstrikes and that he disapproves of them. But he said he gives the Americans "the benefit of the doubt" that their intention is to target the Afghan side of the ill-defined, mountainous border of Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), even if that is not where the missiles land.

Civilian deaths remain a problem, Zardari said. "If the damage is women and children, then the sensitivity of its effect increases," he said. The U.S. "point of view," he said, is that the attacks are "good for everybody. Our point of view is that it is not good for our position of winning the hearts and minds of people."

A senior Pakistani official said that although the attacks contribute to widespread public anger in Pakistan, anti-Americanism there is closely associated with President Bush. Citing a potentially more favorable popular view of President-elect Barack Obama, he said that "maybe with a new administration, public opinion will be more pro-American and we can start acknowledging" more cooperation.

The official, one of several who discussed the sensitive military and intelligence relationship only on the condition of anonymity, said the U.S-Pakistani understanding over the airstrikes is "the smart middle way for the moment." Contrasting Zardari with his predecessor, retired Gen. Pervez Musharraf, the official said Musharraf "gave lip service but not effective support" to the Americans. "This government is delivering but not taking the credit."

From December to August, when Musharraf stepped down, there were six U.S. Predator attacks in Pakistan. Since then, there have been at least 19. The most recent occurred early Friday, when local officials and witnesses said at least 11 people, including six foreign fighters, were killed. The attack, in North Waziristan, one of the seven FATA regions, demolished a compound owned by Amir Gul, a Taliban commander said to have ties to al-Qaeda.

Pakistan's self-praise is not entirely echoed by U.S. officials, who remain suspicious of ties between Pakistan's intelligence service and FATA-based extremists. But the Bush administration has muted its criticism of Pakistan. In a speech to the Atlantic Council last week, CIA Director Michael V. Hayden effusively praised Pakistan's recent military operations, including "tough fighting against hardened militants" in the northern FATA region of Bajaur.

"Throughout the FATA," Hayden said, "al-Qaeda and its allies are feeling less secure today than they did two, three or six months ago. It has become difficult for them to ignore significant losses in their ranks." Hayden acknowledged, however, that al-Qaeda remains a "determined, adaptive enemy," operating from a "safe haven" in the tribal areas.

Along with the stepped-up Predator attacks, Bush administration strategy includes showering Pakistan's new leaders with close, personal attention. Zardari met with Bush during the U.N. General Assembly in September, and senior military and intelligence officials have exchanged near-constant visits over the past few months.

Pakistan's new intelligence chief, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, traveled to Washington in late October, and Gen. David H. Petraeus, installed on Oct. 31 as head of the U.S. Central Command, visited Islamabad on his third day in office. On Wednesday, Hayden flew to New York for a secret visit with Zardari, who was attending a U.N. conference.

Zardari spoke over the telephone with Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.), a conversation Pakistani officials said they considered an initial contact with the incoming Obama administration. Although Kerry has been mentioned as a possible secretary of state, the officials said he indicated that he expects to continue in the Senate, where he is in line to take over Vice President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.'s position as chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.

Despite improved relations with the Bush administration, Zardari said, "we think we need a new dialogue, and we're hoping that the new government will . . . understand that Pakistan has done more than they recognize" and is a victim of the same insurgency the United States is fighting. Pakistan hopes that a $7.6 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund, announced yesterday, will spark new international investment and aid.

Pakistan, whose military has received more than $10 billion in direct U.S. payments since 2001, also wants the United States to provide sophisticated weapons to its armed forces, Zardari said. Rather than using U.S. Predator-fired missiles against Pakistani territory, he asked, why not give Pakistan its own Predators? "Give them to us. . . . we are your allies," he said.

Last month, officials confirmed, Predator strikes in the FATA killed Khalid Habib, described as al-Qaeda's No. 4 official, and senior operatives Abu Jihad al-Masri and Abu Hassan al-Rimi. Three other senior al-Qaeda figures -- explosives expert Abu Khabab al-Masri, Abu Sulayman al-Jazairi and senior commander Abu Laith al-Libi --were killed during the first nine months of the year.

Current and former U.S. counterterrorism officials said improved intelligence has been an important factor in the increased tempo and precision of the Predator strikes. Over the past year, they said, the United States has been able to improve its network of informants in the border region while also fielding new hardware that allows close tracking of the movements of suspected militants.

The missiles are fired from unmanned aircraft by the CIA. But the drones are only part of a diverse network of machines and software used by the agency to spot terrorism suspects and follow their movements, the officials said. The equipment, much of which remains highly classified, includes an array of powerful sensors mounted on satellites, airplanes, blimps and drones of every size and shape.

Before 2002, the CIA had no experience in using the Predator as a weapon. But in recent years -- and especially in the past 12 months -- spy agencies have honed their skills at tracking and killing single individuals using aerial vehicles operated by technicians hundreds or thousands of miles away. James R. Clapper Jr., the Pentagon's chief intelligence officer, said the new brand of warfare has "gotten very laserlike and very precise."

"It's having the ability, once you know who you're after, to study and watch very steadily and consistently -- persistently," Clapper told a recent gathering of intelligence professionals and contractors in Nashville. "And then, at the appropriate juncture, with due regard for reducing collateral casualties or damage, going after that individual."

Two former senior intelligence officials familiar with the use of the Predator in Pakistan said the rift between Islamabad and Washington over the unilateral attacks was always less than it seemed.

"By killing al-Qaeda, you're helping Pakistan's military and you're disrupting attacks that could be carried out in Karachi and elsewhere," said one official, speaking on the condition of anonymity. Pakistan's new acquiescence coincided with the new government there and a sharp increase in domestic terrorist attacks, including the September bombing of the Marriott hotel in Islamabad.

"The attacks inside Pakistan have changed minds," the official said. "These guys are worried, as they should be."
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I do agree that treating it like an actual war has problems...especially insider your own country.

How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.
I would say that most Americans have a slight to significantly unfavorable view of Muslims. But, then if we compare Muslim with Western nations we see the have nots and the haves, the countries with what we consider backass laws, poor scientific discovery, oppression, etc. with its antithesis, so is it really surprising that Islam is not well received? It seems in direct contradiction to what many laud the west for.

Well said. And that's where America's claim of being tolerant go down the drain. It's America that has started this cycle of hatred. Yes OBL attacked the twin towers and many other western target over the years but OBL was hated by everyone. Atleast amongst your population, contrary to what you claim you have ignited hatred against us. We are the oppressed. You ask any muslim around the world - progressive, backward, rich, poor, educated or uneducated he is likely to have an unfavorably view of the west. I've been to many countries and am saying it based on experience. And I think are anti-western views are justified. We denounce OBL. You don't denounce your aggressive policies against us.

And the Islam I know is different from what they show you on TV. The ball is in your court and has ever been since WW1. While I probably hate the taliban and their actions more than you, American foreign policy can go to hell.


I have little doubt Muslims are the oppressed. The problem I have is claiming the United States or the West are doing the oppressing. Muslims are oppressed by other Muslims. The sooner Muslims come to this realization the better.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I do agree that treating it like an actual war has problems...especially insider your own country.

How many Americans hate muslims based on what they've seen themselves rather than what they see on TV? I think the terms used by your politicians and accepted by ours like "extremism" and "fundamentalism" are causing the majority of us to think you hate muslims. The problem is there are two many bigots on both sides that won't accept that there is a problem with them.
I would say that most Americans have a slight to significantly unfavorable view of Muslims. But, then if we compare Muslim with Western nations we see the have nots and the haves, the countries with what we consider backass laws, poor scientific discovery, oppression, etc. with its antithesis, so is it really surprising that Islam is not well received? It seems in direct contradiction to what many laud the west for.

Well said. And that's where America's claim of being tolerant go down the drain. It's America that has started this cycle of hatred. Yes OBL attacked the twin towers and many other western target over the years but OBL was hated by everyone. Atleast amongst your population, contrary to what you claim you have ignited hatred against us. We are the oppressed. You ask any muslim around the world - progressive, backward, rich, poor, educated or uneducated he is likely to have an unfavorably view of the west. I've been to many countries and am saying it based on experience. And I think are anti-western views are justified. We denounce OBL. You don't denounce your aggressive policies against us.

And the Islam I know is different from what they show you on TV. The ball is in your court and has ever been since WW1. While I probably hate the taliban and their actions more than you, American foreign policy can go to hell.


I have little doubt Muslims are the oppressed. The problem I have is claiming the United States or the West are doing the oppressing. Muslims are oppressed by other Muslims. The sooner Muslims come to this realization the better.

When the West discovered that oil was valuable and that the ME had it, we immediately set out to exploit them. Kermit Roosevelt, installing the Shah, backing Saddam. There is a long list of things the West has done which has no parallel in our society. We abused the crap out of them, and many are alive today that lived through some of those times. This isn't ancient history. NOW, I would agree with you, but the better part of a century of opportunism and oppression by our puppets isn't just going to go away from these people's minds.