You need a $2,000 PC to match a PS5/XSX

[mikegg]

Just breaking it down:

The non-graphics computing power is probably equivalent to a 3900x. PS5 SoC has a dedicated data decompress chip that Mark Cerny claims is equivalent to one Zen2 core. It also has a dedicated audio chip that he claims is equivalent to the entire PS4 CPU. Add in console optimizations, you're probably looking at around a 3900x equivalent.

3900x = $420

The RDNA2 GPUs used are probably equivalent to a 2080Super in raw horsepower. But due to console optimization, it's probably a 2080ti.

2080ti = $1,000

SSD is probably equivalent to some $200 drive in the future. Right now, you can't even buy drives as fast as the PS5. And according to Mark Cerny's presentation, an SSD has to be even faster than 5.5gb/s to work on a PS5.

SSD = $200

RAM is a hard one to estimate since the consoles only use shared GDDR ram. So maybe a $60 kit is enough, considering that the 2080ti already has VRAM.

RAM = $60

Case, PSU, fans, etc = $200.

Windows 10 = $139.00

Total cost is $2,019.

Yes, I understand that in 1-2 years, a mid-range PC will easily be equivalent to the consoles and you can use your PC for work as well. But if you want an equivalent PC right now, it costs $2k. And for me personally, I work on a Mac.

If the PS5 or XSX lands at $499, it seems like a no-brainer deal for gamers.

 

[viivo]

It's pointless to directly compare modified mobile hardware to discrete desktop components.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

It's pointless to directly compare modified mobile hardware to discrete desktop components.

Where are you getting that next gen consoles will have modified mobile hardware?

 

[Aikouka]

One thing that you may be forgetting about is the cooling. While it seems that Microsoft has made a concerted effort to ensure good cooling in the Xbox Series X (the Xbox One X is pretty good too), we don't know much about what Sony is doing. Cooling is a huge issue due to the increase in hardware power consumption. Previous generation consoles were powered by AMD's Jaguar CPU cores, which are low-powered cores compared to Zen. This may mean less compute power; however, it also meant more power and thermal "budget" could be provided to the GPU. With the Zen 2 cores, the overall power usage is likely to rise a bit, and cooling is quite imperative.

Now, I'm focusing so heavy on cooling, because that's one area that a computer can usually perform better due to... well... just having a lot more room! An out-of-the-box setup could use a large Noctua cooler for the CPU and a huge, three-slot cooler for the GPU.

While it may not seem it, I'm actually really interested to see the performance on these upcoming consoles. One thing that I've always wanted is a good APU from AMD that would give me say... 1080p at medium settings so I could build a nice, little gaming HTPC rather than relying on mid-towers like I do now.

 

[mikegg]

One thing that you may be forgetting about is the cooling. While it seems that Microsoft has made a concerted effort to ensure good cooling in the Xbox Series X (the Xbox One X is pretty good too), we don't know much about what Sony is doing. Cooling is a huge issue due to the increase in hardware power consumption. Previous generation consoles were powered by AMD's Jaguar CPU cores, which are low-powered cores compared to Zen. This may mean less compute power; however, it also meant more power and thermal "budget" could be provided to the GPU. With the Zen 2 cores, the overall power usage is likely to rise a bit, and cooling is quite imperative.

Now, I'm focusing so heavy on cooling, because that's one area that a computer can usually perform better due to... well... just having a lot more room! An out-of-the-box setup could use a large Noctua cooler for the CPU and a huge, three-slot cooler for the GPU.

While it may not seem it, I'm actually really interested to see the performance on these upcoming consoles. One thing that I've always wanted is a good APU from AMD that would give me say... 1080p at medium settings so I could build a nice, little gaming HTPC rather than relying on mid-towers like I do now.

This is true.

However, PC cases are designed to be compatible with a wide range of components. This is suboptimal for cooling. You can say that custom PCs "brute force" their cooling. Meanwhile, consoles are designed only for one set of hardware.

Take the newest Mac Pro for example. You can configure it with a 28-core Xeon, run it at max, and the tower stays near silent. This would be impossible on a custom built PC using general components. But Apple has managed to accomplish this feat because they control every component inside the Mac which means they have better control over cooling.

Sony and Microsoft have the same benefit as the Mac Pro. They can tweak, test, design, and optimize thermals.

 

[FaaR]

It's pointless to directly compare modified mobile hardware to discrete desktop components.

These new consoles are going to have a way higher power draw than anything mobile. Also, the GPUs in them are much larger and more powerful than any current mobile iGPUs. So that's not a fair description.

That said, this is a really iffy cost estimate. Adding together custom hardware like the sound processing and data decompression and "translating" them into zen2 cores isn't how it works, particularly as the PS5 especially is being engineered for this custom hardware from the ground up, with games written especially to leverage it in ways that previous consoles (or any consumer-oriented computing device in the past really) has been able to do.

Zen2 cores are general purpose, if you give one platform GP hardware and the other platform custom hardware they will be equal(-ish) only as long as what you do can take advantage of the custom hardware in the other platform. Otherwise the platform with the most GP processing resources wins.

And magnifying raw processing power because of "console optimizations" is very subjective. It depends entirely on how much in the way of optimizations the console version receives, and since both PS5 and XBSeX (lal) are now more like regular PCs than ever before, I'm thinking the reason for that is so that console-specific optimizations won't be necessary (as much) anymore. Games development is already ridiculously expensive enough as it is, and the less of that developers have to go through the better for them.

PS4 and XBone had those god-awful jaguar CPU cores that were low-clocked and also suffered fairly massive memory latencies and poor memory bandwidth. Their GPUs weren't exactly super impressive either (and especially the Bone's) even when the consoles were new. You NEEDED to optimize the hell out of that weaksauce hardware to get good performance out of it, whereas the new gen have quite strong GPUs out of the gate (especially the SeX) and fast, modern CPU cores with wide execution units, high clocks, multithreading and loads of cache (including L3 no doubt.) They will be far more robust, and able to run straight, "unconsole-ized" PC code without bogging down.

 

[A Casual Fitz]

I'm not as technical-minded as the others in this thread, but I always understood that the consoles themselves are under-priced based on their hardware with the assumption that once you get whichever company's console, you'd naturally be buying a lot of games to go with it.

 

[mikegg]

I'm not as technical-minded as the others in this thread, but I always understood that the consoles themselves are under-priced based on their hardware with the assumption that once you get whichever company's console, you'd naturally be buying a lot of games to go with it.

At launch, I'd argue that a next-gen console is equivalent to a $1500-$2000 PC in terms of gaming power but sells for $400-$500.

Mass production, optimized parts to reduce bottleneck (IE. CPU/GPU are balanced), and the ability to make money from software keep the cost low.

Microsoft and Sony have gotten smart about reducing hardware costs by using mostly straight forward x86 architectures. No custom Cell or IBM processors. Just take the latest and greatest from AMD and use that.

 

[sandorski]

This assumes that the Consoles will be using equivalent Settings as PCs. Especially where Graphics are concerned. The $2k PC will undoubtedly produce better Graphics and Performance.

 

[alcoholbob]

Moores Law is Dead podcast also said PS5 devs told him would be years before anyone will even consider moving PS5 exclusives to PC. An nvme drive won't be able to really simulate the ps5s performance due to lack of decompression hardware so most likely those games will require a minimum of 64GB of RAM as devs will simply load entire levels into RAM to compensate on the PC.

 

[quikah]

Moores Law is Dead podcast also said PS5 devs told him would be years before anyone will even consider moving PS5 exclusives to PC. An nvme drive won't be able to really simulate the ps5s performance due to lack of decompression hardware so most likely those games will require a minimum of 64GB of RAM as devs will simply load entire levels into RAM to compensate on the PC.

This all sounds like marketing BS to me. They are using Oodle Kraken compression as I understand which Rad Game Tools claims runs great on PS4 / Xbox One today without a decompression chip. http://www.radgametools.com/oodlekraken.htm

Even if they heavily modified Kraken, decompression is not THAT taxing. The real reason to not port to PC is because VERY few systems have NVMe drives at all, most have just SSD or hybrid drive setups, only now are NVMe starting to become more common.

 

[mikegg]

Moores Law is Dead podcast also said PS5 devs told him would be years before anyone will even consider moving PS5 exclusives to PC. An nvme drive won't be able to really simulate the ps5s performance due to lack of decompression hardware so most likely those games will require a minimum of 64GB of RAM as devs will simply load entire levels into RAM to compensate on the PC.

Not sure if I buy that. Couldn't they just dedicate one CPU core to compression?

In addition, in 2-3 years, NVME drives on the PC will easily surpass 5.5gb/s.

The big problem is of course, how many PC gamers will have ultra fast NVME drives installed? It doesn't seem realistic for PC game developers to set the minimum SSD speed requirement to 5.5gb/s for a long long time.

 

[alcoholbob]

Not sure if I buy that. Couldn't they just dedicate one CPU core to compression?

In addition, in 2-3 years, NVME drives on the PC will easily surpass 5.5gb/s.

The big problem is of course, how many PC gamers will have ultra fast NVME drives installed? It doesn't seem realistic for PC game developers to set the minimum SSD speed requirement to 5.5gb/s for a long long time.

Didn't NVME SSD shipments surpass SATA SSDs in 2018 or so? It's probably not that far away from being more common than bog standard SSDs.

 

[shortylickens]

I'm not as technical-minded as the others in this thread, but I always understood that the consoles themselves are under-priced based on their hardware with the assumption that once you get whichever company's console, you'd naturally be buying a lot of games to go with it.

yeah with Sony and Microsoft they actually lose money on the first generation of hardware when they sell it. The assumption being you are dumb enough to keep buying overpriced games in bulk so they still make a profit.
Fun fact: They always make a profit.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

This is true.

However, PC cases are designed to be compatible with a wide range of components. This is suboptimal for cooling. You can say that custom PCs "brute force" their cooling. Meanwhile, consoles are designed only for one set of hardware.

Take the newest Mac Pro for example. You can configure it with a 28-core Xeon, run it at max, and the tower stays near silent. This would be impossible on a custom built PC using general components. But Apple has managed to accomplish this feat because they control every component inside the Mac which means they have better control over cooling.

Sony and Microsoft have the same benefit as the Mac Pro. They can tweak, test, design, and optimize thermals.

And yet my PS4 Pro was the loudest gaming device I have owned in over a decade. Playing God of War it sounded like it would take off and fly around the room. And my experience with it is far from unique. And then we have the infamous 360, which had an incomprehensibly terrible cooling design.

And comparing them to Apple is silly. because Apple charges a significant premium for all that engineering. Consoles do not, which means they often cheap out somewhere. And I just provided examples that establish historical precedence, where it was the cooling systems and/or designs that suffered.

That said, both consoles look to have addressed these issues, but time will tell.

 

[mikegg]

Didn't NVME SSD shipments surpass SATA SSDs in 2018 or so? It's probably not that far away from being more common than bog standard SSDs.

SSDs are more common than hard drives yet, many games still support hard drives.

 

[ultimatebob]

Something tells me that the actual CPU performance of the new XBox or PS5 will be nowhere near a Ryzen 3900X. They're probably going to neuter the performance of that chip quite a bit to fit the power and thermal limits of a game console.

We get this kind of hype every time a new console generation comes out, and you can always end up getting a $500 PC with similar gaming performance just 18 months after it ships.

 

[FaaR]

Something tells me that the actual CPU performance of the new XBox or PS5 will be nowhere near a Ryzen 3900X.

Duhh. 3900X is a 12-core device, the new consoles feature an 8-core complex, and both consoles are also capped lower in clock speed than the 3900X, and particularly PS5.

 

[purbeast0]

And you still won't be able to play God of War, The Last of Us, Uncharted, or Ratchet and Clank.

 

[shortylickens]

And you still won't be able to play God of War, The Last of Us, Uncharted, or Ratchet and Clank.

I got a PS3 just to play exclusives and I have to say The Last of Us is more overrated than Five Guys burgers.

 

[cmdrdredd]

This assumes that the Consoles will be using equivalent Settings as PCs. Especially where Graphics are concerned. The $2k PC will undoubtedly produce better Graphics and Performance.

I think it'll be a tradeoff as always. They will have top notch looking games at 30fps because the hardware still can't do ray tracing etc in real time at 60fps at 4k resolution. Or they will sacrifice resolution and some of the more fancy effects and use scaling methods to produce a 4k output and give you 60fps. I believe a game that looks like what we have seen for the new SPider Man game or the Horizon sequel will probably use a lot of the special graphical features and take a 30fps game play. Other titles like Ratchet and Clank can be visually impressive in a different way and give 60fps. That's just my guess anyway.

 

[alcoholbob]

I think it'll be a tradeoff as always. They will have top notch looking games at 30fps because the hardware still can't do ray tracing etc in real time at 60fps at 4k resolution. Or they will sacrifice resolution and some of the more fancy effects and use scaling methods to produce a 4k output and give you 60fps. I believe a game that looks like what we have seen for the new SPider Man game or the Horizon sequel will probably use a lot of the special graphical features and take a 30fps game play. Other titles like Ratchet and Clank can be visually impressive in a different way and give 60fps. That's just my guess anyway.

Of course you could always play at 1080p 120hz + VRR/freesync. You can already do that on the Xbox one X but the CPU really can't push the necessary frames. The new 8 core zen2 cups will really help here. I personally really don't see the point of 4k console gaming if you are sitting so far away from the TV that you can't even tell the difference from 1080p anyway.

 

[piokos]

If the PS5 or XSX lands at $499, it seems like a no-brainer deal for gamers.

You must be extremely bored right now to design this kind of comparisons.

Consoles are cheap because they only work for gaming - they're extremely impaired on features and possibilities. And even at gaming they're quite limited.
So your comparison only makes sense if you assume a very specific gamer profile:
- he doesn't use the PC for anything other than gaming,
- he doesn't play any game not available on a console,
- he doesn't need multi-monitor support,
- he's OK without keyboard/mouse
... I could probably go on...

What is important is that for almost everyone this choice is not "console vs gaming-only PC". Because most people have a PC anyway.
It is: how much more do I have to spend on my PC (and is it still the PC I want) to offer similar gaming potential?
For avid gamers this will be about adding a few hundred USD to what they have, not building a brand new desktop for $1500.

For most people (like me) consoles make sense because they use slim laptops - replacing them with gaming models is not acceptable. But that also means most of these people are NOT avid gamers - they wouldn't need a PC that matches a PS5 anyway.
Your point about being on Mac is valid as well. That said, many Mac users probably could use a Windows PC as well, so again - they wouldn't have to keep them both (just switch during the next upgrade).

[edit]
Also, a few problems with your list:
- CPU: why an expensive 3900X? The chip in PS5 is not even a 3700X.
- SSD: why a $200 theoretical SSD? A PC would not benefit from that (I bet PS5 won't for a long time as well, i.e. it's a marketing gimmick in 2020),
- by the time PS5 launches, we'll have 30-series Nvidia stuff - potentially matching the console around a $500-600 price point - you used a hypothetical future SSD, you could use a not-so-hypothetical GPU,
- you forgot about a mobo (typical...)

 

[mikegg]

You must be extremely bored right not to design this kind of comparisons.

You must be extremely bored right now to reply to my bored post.

Consoles are cheap because they only work for gaming - they're extremely impaired on features and possibilities. And even at gaming they're quite limited.

No way! Consoles are mostly only for gaming? I didn't know that.

It is: how much more do I have to spend on my PC (and is it still the PC I want) to offer similar gaming potential?

And what do you think this post was trying to answer??

For avid gamers this will be about adding a few hundred USD to what they have, not building a brand new desktop for $1500.

Ok. But this post is about building a new PC.

That said, many Mac users probably could use a Windows PC as well, so again - they wouldn't have to keep them both (just switch during the next upgrade).

I use MacOS Bootcamp to dual boot Windows. No need to have two machines.

- CPU: why an expensive 3900X? The chip in PS5 is not even a 3700X.

Already explained in original post.

- SSD: why a $200 theoretical SSD? A PC would not benefit from that (I bet PS5 won't for a long time as well, i.e. it's a marketing gimmick in 2020),

Already explained in original post.

- by the time PS5 launches, we'll have 30-series Nvidia stuff - potentially matching the console around a $500-600 price point - you used a hypothetical future SSD, you could use a not-so-hypothetical GPU,

That's a pipe dream if you think you can build a $500-$600 PC to match a PS5/XSX when Nvidia 3000 series launch.

- you forgot about a mobo (typical...)

Nice catch. It adds another $150 to the price.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Of course you could always play at 1080p 120hz + VRR/freesync. You can already do that on the Xbox one X but the CPU really can't push the necessary frames. The new 8 core zen2 cups will really help here. I personally really don't see the point of 4k console gaming if you are sitting so far away from the TV that you can't even tell the difference from 1080p anyway.

Well, let’s be honest. You don’t need 4K to make the game look good. You can push more polygons, better effects, better anti aliasing methods, HDR etc at 1080p and get a game that is closer to looking like real life or closer to Pixar quality than what we have. 4K is a numbers game to me.

I still think it will be a trade off just because the stuff you can do, just isn’t possible at high frame rates on the hardware. Always seems to be the case anyway.