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drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
If the FCC won't allow it, then why did Comcast try it, and not only try it, but succeed? And why didn't Level3 protest to the FCC?

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/networking/comcast-level-3-network-neutrality-and-your-internet/387

Because Level 3 knows that what's ACTUALLY going on in this case has nothing to do with "net neutrality" or "tiered networks" or anti-competitive business practices.

Level 3 was trying to leverage its traditional position as a backbone provider to further it's new business as a content delivery network. Comcast wasn't buying it. 404 problem not found.
 

robmurphy

Senior member
Feb 16, 2007
376
0
0
I'm replying to this from a UK view.

I work with 2 business DSL providers.

1 has its own traffic shaping policies. These mean you cannot use MS updates, download google chrome. They do claim to prioritise "business" use, but this means many normal sites are slow or do not work. They also claim MS updates are not "priority" and that is why they take longer. Given 700 MB of updates left to download overnight only manages to actually download about 10 MB I would not use the word slow. We did use this company for the office internet but I received many complaints about the internet being slow. Add to that I could not update a new PC/Laptop ready for a new member of staff.

We now use a company that prioritises VoIP traffic, but treats the rest of the traffic the same. Given slightly less bandwidth the internet access is much quicker. MS updates for a new machine work. Downloads like chrome work. The VoIP is much better as well.

If you shape by traffic type so real time packets are prioritised things work fine. Try to shape by website "type" and from what I have seen it does not work.

Given that many LAN switches are now QoS enabled, and will give priority to a VLAN or traffic marked as real time, should the Internet not also do this?

Rob.
 

imagoon

Diamond Member
Feb 19, 2003
5,199
0
0
Given that many LAN switches are now QoS enabled, and will give priority to a VLAN or traffic marked as real time, should the Internet not also do this?

QoS infer's trust. With QoS you have to hope that "downloader X" doesn't tag all his torrent packets as "high priority." It requires switch/router CPU to analyze the packets and reset the QoS or it bumps everyone else off the net. And this all assumes that that a high priority packet inside Layer3 doesn't get changed to "bulk" at the Comcast gateway etc (example only.)

Your one DSL provider sounds like crappy service however.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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We're getting to the point where traffic flows can be categorized just by the flow alone and not just QoS markings into specific applications and then they are treated as such.

That is the future of the internet. Net Neutrality seeks to end this advancement and as such is a terrible idea.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
Except comcast's current direction and is in trial right now is for their set top boxes to have access to all internet based streaming media to offer them a competitive advantage to other ISPs. It would NOT be in their favor to have that video be crappy.
They can offer whatever they want. If Comcast isn't subject to the same restrictions that they are placing on their competitors, then its abuse.

And your other point about QoS, the few times a provider has tried that the FCC told them to stop immediately. They can't do anti-competitive stuffs.
So your contention is that Comcast doesn't mark VoIP and video on demand traffic for QoS?
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
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So your contention is that Comcast doesn't mark VoIP and video on demand traffic for QoS?

Of course they do. You can't offer voice over a packet network without QoS.

That is, however, not what the doom-and-gloomers are on about...although their solution would effectively end the ability to QoS voice traffic as well.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
Is there a good place to see what actually comes from the vote?

IF they start to block websites, couldn't you just proxy?

No one is going to block websites.

Also, the FCC won't let us read their policy, so no one knows what's actually in it.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Is there a good place to see what actually comes from the vote?

IF they start to block websites, couldn't you just proxy?

Are you freaking kidding me? One of the provisions in the vote is to make SURE THERE IS NO BLOCKING!!!!!!

This is why you WANT THIS TO PASS!!!

This is GOOD FOR ALL INTERNET USERS!!!! This whole net neutrality thing is proof positive the power fo misinormation. What is bad about this policy, which is what it's based on?

to ensure that broadband networks are widely deployed, open, affordable, and accessible to all consumers, the Commission adopts the following principles:

*

To encourage broadband deployment and preserve and promote the open and interconnected nature of the public Internet, consumers are entitled to access the lawful Internet content of their choice.
*

To encourage broadband deployment and preserve and promote the open and interconnected nature of the public Internet, consumers are entitled to run applications and use services of their choice, subject to the needs of law enforcement.
*

To encourage broadband deployment and preserve and promote the open and interconnected nature of the public Internet, consumers are entitled to connect their choice of legal devices that do not harm the network.13
*

To encourage broadband deployment and preserve and promote the open and interconnected nature of the public Internet, consumers are entitled to competition among network providers, application and service providers, and content providers.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
Maybe I am miss-understanding, but don't you want them (ISP's) to NOT have control over what is passing through their pipes?

ISPs MUST be able to control what is traversing their networks. It is the only way to provide reliable quality for real-time services such as voice.

Best-effort doesn't work for real-time protocols.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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Maybe I am miss-understanding, but don't you want them (ISP's) to NOT have control over what is passing through their pipes?

I want them to have absolutely total control of the traffic on THEIR NETWORK to provide top quality service for ALL applications and content.
 

ViviTheMage

Lifer
Dec 12, 2002
36,190
85
91
madgenius.com
I want them to have absolutely total control of the traffic on THEIR NETWORK to provide top quality service for ALL applications and content.

So what traffic would get low priority, who decides that? What if I don't use voice, or care about application traffic? What if they started to drop packets while gaming (something i'd be more inclined to do, then run remote apps)?

I am weary of the government making any more laws ...
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
So what traffic would get low priority, who decides that? What if I don't use voice, or care about application traffic? What if they started to drop packets while gaming (something i'd be more inclined to do, then run remote apps)?

I am weary of the government making any more laws ...

It doesn't work like priority, which is where people get so upset over and don't really understand the technology. It's more about maintaining what the application wants. Gaming wants low latency, medium-low bandwidth, low jitter - really similar to video conferencing and would get treated as such.

Bulk data like web browsing, file transfer and e-mail would get a higher drop precedence if a drop decision had to be made and your games, voice and video would never notice. Nor would your web browsing or file transfer.

We will very soon get to a path dependent, interAS qos model based on application alone and not markings.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
Of course they do. You can't offer voice over a packet network without QoS.

That is, however, not what the doom-and-gloomers are on about...although their solution would effectively end the ability to QoS voice traffic as well.
You would then agree that ISPs that offer VoIP and video on demand services have an unfair advantage when it comes to those markets.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
You would then agree that ISPs that offer VoIP and video on demand services have an unfair advantage when it comes to those markets.

They do, yes, but that's not necessarily a problem. It is a necessity.

I would like to see ISPs honor QoS markings or have easier ways for the end user to specify what QoS they want on their link. However, net neutrality in its current form does not do that.

As stated, without the ability to prioritize traffic end-to-end, voice cannot work over a packet network. Legislating QoS away will be a giant 20-year step backwards in terms of voice networks.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,537
2,752
136
My take on this: somewhat of a win-win.

Anti-NN types like Spidey should be happy. He was anti-NN because, from a technical standpoint, some type of traffic shaping had to occur. VoIP data != bittorrent data

Pro-NN types like me should be happy. I was pro-NN because, from a consumer standpoint, traffic discrimination through content tiering seemed inevitable. I was never really afraid that absent NN an ISP would block websites wholesale but I was afraid that they would enter into agreements with content providers that would prioritize a customer's data based on a tiered package purchased and throttle content outside the package to stone-age speeds. Or, worse yet, at some undetermined point in the future national wireless broadband would be rolled out and wired connections would be mostly unregulated (as far as content discrimination goes) similar to the FCC's stance on television.

This agreement, to me, appears to preserve the anti-NN desire to shape traffic based on very broad definitions of traffic type while preserving the pro-NN desire to ensure that ISPs don't discriminate against content providers.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
My take on this: somewhat of a win-win.

Anti-NN types like Spidey should be happy. He was anti-NN because, from a technical standpoint, some type of traffic shaping had to occur. VoIP data != bittorrent data

Pro-NN types like me should be happy. I was pro-NN because, from a consumer standpoint, traffic discrimination through content tiering seemed inevitable. I was never really afraid that absent NN an ISP would block websites wholesale but I was afraid that they would enter into agreements with content providers that would prioritize a customer's data based on a tiered package purchased and throttle content outside the package to stone-age speeds. Or, worse yet, at some undetermined point in the future national wireless broadband would be rolled out and wired connections would be mostly unregulated (as far as content discrimination goes) similar to the FCC's stance on television.

This agreement, to me, appears to preserve the anti-NN desire to shape traffic based on very broad definitions of traffic type while preserving the pro-NN desire to ensure that ISPs don't discriminate against content providers.

You hit the nail on the head. WELL DONE. The only thing I don't like about it is government regulation getting involved where it didn't need be, but otherwise it does not appear to cause harm (surprise).
 

robmurphy

Senior member
Feb 16, 2007
376
0
0
Companies do run VoIP without any form of QoS over the internet in the UK. The main telecomms company, BT, has a business product that make SIP calls over the normal BT broadband. The packets are marked but BT ignore the marking and the SIP/RTP traffic is treated just the same as the other broadband traffic. Initially they did get many complaints about the voice quality but once the work was done on the ATA's firmware and jitter buffer the call quality was very good. Better than a normal analogue land line. BT's measurement is something called PESQ, in MOS terms the call quality went from about 2.5 to 3.5 to over 4.1 for 99% of the calls. This took many changes and reworks. The jitter buffer and its operation is crucial on VoIP.

The company I mentioned that does use QoS for VoIP traffic does it by the IP address. If the traffic is going to their VoIP service it is prioritised. If its going to another VoIP service and they know about them they will have a direct link between them so that the VoIP traffic does not go out onto the UK internet to get to its destination. That is how one company in the UK applies QoS to VoIP traffic. They ignore the packet markings as they cannot trust them, and some VoIP CPE does not mark the VoIP traffic.

Rob.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
Everyone ignores packet markings unless those packet markings come from their own equipment.

But, the plain fact of the matter is that you cannot have reliable VoIP quality without QoS. Jitterbuffer is not the answer to that. QoS is the answer to that. Excessive buffering of real-time communications has its own set of problems.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
The reasonable management part is what scares most people because it wasn't well defined in the press release. Here it is in more detail

Reasonable Network Management

Reasonable network management consists of: (a) Reasonable practices
employed by a provider of broadband Internet access service to (i)
reduce or mitigate the effects of congestion on its network or to
address quality-of-service concerns; (ii) address traffic that is
unwanted by users or harmful; (iii) prevent the transfer of unlawful
content; or (iv) prevent the unlawful transfer of content; and (b)
other reasonable network management practices.

There appear to be several types of situations that could
justify a broadband Internet access service provider's acting
inconsistently with the six open Internet principles described above.

First, if a broadband Internet access service provider's network is or
appears likely to become congested to such a degree that an individual
user's Internet access is noticeably affected, the broadband Internet
access service provider may be justified in taking reasonable steps to
reduce or mitigate the adverse effects of that congestion or to address
quality-of-service concerns.

Second, it may be reasonable for a provider to take measures to counter traffic
that is harmful or unwanted by users. Third, if particular content or a
particular transfer of content is prohibited by law, the provider may be justified
in not carrying that traffic. Finally, there may be other situations in which
network management practices do not fall into one of these categories but may
nevertheless be reasonable. We address each of these categories in turn.

First, we propose that a broadband Internet access service
provider may take reasonable steps to reduce or mitigate the adverse
effects of congestion on its network or to address quality-of-service
concerns. What constitutes congestion, and what measures are reasonable
to address it, may vary depending on the technology platform for a
particular broadband Internet access service. For example, if cable
Internet subscribers in a particular neighborhood are experiencing
congestion, it may be reasonable for an Internet service provider to
temporarily limit the bandwidth available to individual users in that
neighborhood who are using a substantially disproportionate amount of
bandwidth until the period of congestion has passed. Alternatively, a
broadband Internet service provider might seek to manage congestion by
limiting usage or charging subscribers based on their usage rather than
a flat monthly fee. Some have suggested it would be beneficial for a
broadband provider to protect the quality of service for those
applications for which quality of service is important by implementing
a network management practice of prioritizing classes of latency-
sensitive traffic over classes of latency-insensitive traffic (such as
prioritizing all VoIP, gaming, and streaming media traffic). Others
have suggested that such a practice would be difficult to implement in
a competitively fair manner and could undermine the benefits of a
nondiscrimination rule, including keeping barriers to innovation low.

We believe that it would likely not be reasonable network management to
block or degrade VoIP traffic but not other services that similarly
affect bandwidth usage and have similar quality-of-service
requirements. Nor would we consider the singling out of any particular
content (i.e., viewpoint) for blocking or deprioritization to be
reasonable, in the absence of evidence that such traffic or content was
harmful. We recognize that in a past adjudication, the Commission
proposed that for a network management practice to be considered
``reasonable,'' it ``should further a critically important interest and
be narrowly or carefully tailored to serve that interest.'' We believe
that this standard is unnecessarily restrictive in the context of a
rule that generally prohibits discrimination subject to a flexible
category of reasonable network management.

Second, we propose that broadband Internet access service
providers may address harmful traffic or traffic unwanted by users as a
reasonable network management practice. For example, blocking spam
appears to be a reasonable network management practice, as does
blocking malware or malicious traffic originating from malware, as well
as any traffic that a particular user has requested be blocked (e.g.,
blocking pornography for a particular user who has asked the broadband
Internet access service provider to do so).

Third, we propose that broadband Internet access service
providers would not violate the principles in taking reasonable steps
to address unlawful conduct on the Internet. Specifically, we propose
that broadband Internet access service providers may reasonably prevent
the transfer of content that is unlawful. For example, as the
possession of child pornography is unlawful, consistent with applicable
law, it appears reasonable for a broadband Internet access service
provider to refuse to transmit child pornography. Moreover, it is
important to emphasize that open Internet principles apply only to
lawful transfers of content. They do not, for example, apply to
activities such as the unlawful distribution of copyrighted works,
which has adverse consequences on the economy and the overall broadband
ecosystem. In order for network openness obligations and appropriate
enforcement of copyright laws to co-exist, it appears reasonable for a
broadband Internet access service provider to refuse to transmit
copyrighted material if the transfer of that material would violate
applicable laws. Such a rule would be consistent with the Comcast
Network Management Practices Order, in which the Commission stated that
``providers, consistent with federal policy, may block transmissions that
violate copyright law.''

Finally, we propose that broadband Internet access service
providers may take other reasonable steps to maintain the proper
functioning of their networks. We include this catch-all for two
reasons. First, we do not presume to know now everything that providers
may need to do to provide robust, safe, and secure Internet access to
their subscribers, much less everything they may need to do as
technologies and usage patterns change in the future. Second, we
believe that additional flexibility to engage in reasonable network management
provides network operators with an important tool to experiment and
innovate as user needs change.
 
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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
That's pretty damn well defined and what I've been saying about this for a long time. It's only net neutrality supporters with their tinfoil doom and gloom hats on that think it's bad.

This is nothing but GOOD for internet users as it still allows providers to offer the best service possible to it's customers and the varying application requirements. Thankfully the FCC is listening to people that know how the internet and networking work and not net neutrality supporters.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
My main complaint with ISP has been the lack of information on how they manage the network , what they are prioritizing and what they are restricting. I think they should be required to disclose up front what their policy is so users can know. The other thing they address is the up to xxx rate in advertising, saying that providers should have to disclose what the likely bandwidth will be in heavily congested or oversold areas not selling the location as up to 10Mbps if the connection drops to 5Mbps during evenings because the provider can't support the load. They would have to disclose that in the advertising that it is 10Mbps during day but evening hours may be 5Mbps.