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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
13,606
2,696
126
Your charts are outdated; e.g., the July TPU 7770 review used Cat 12.3 drivers, NOT 12.7beta which was the driver that gave more performance.

Nevertheless, I apparently misremembered... actual differential is more like 27%:

Let's take one of the TPU reviews using Cat 12.7beta drivers: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_GTX_660/27.html
Unfortunately there isn't a 5770 on the chart, but there is a 6670. 57/30 = 1.9x the speed of 6670

Now look at: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_670/28.html showing the 5770 to be 36/24 = 1.5x the speed of 6670

1.9/1.5 = 27% faster

However, in newer games the 7770 should be better able to drive fps and frametimes, particularly in tessellated games, so in those games the delta is probably more than 27%, like 30-40% faster.
I dont see any significant performance increases from Cat 12.3 to Cat 12.7

Cat 12.3 review
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_7770_Vapor-X/8.html

Cat 12.7 review
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_650_Power_Edition/7.html

Lets see Batman AC, BF3, Civ V and Crysis 2 at 1920x1200 from the above reviews.

Batman AC Cat 12.3 = 33,5fps
Batman AC Cat 12.7 = 33,7fps

BF3 Cat 12.3 = 26fps
BF3 Cat 12.7 = 26,1fps

Civ V Cat 12.3 = 37fps
Civ V Cat 12.3 = 35,2fps (Lower than cat 12.3)

Crysis 2 Cat 12.3 = 25,6fps
Crysis 2 Cat 12.3 = 25,6fps

So even with Cat 12.7 the performance difference should stay the same as before, there is no way that HD7770 is 40% faster than HD5770/6770.
 

Riek

Senior member
Dec 16, 2008
409
14
76
I dont see any significant performance increases from Cat 12.3 to Cat 12.7

Cat 12.3 review
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_7770_Vapor-X/8.html

Cat 12.7 review
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_650_Power_Edition/7.html

Lets see Batman AC, BF3, Civ V and Crysis 2 at 1920x1200 from the above reviews.

Batman AC Cat 12.3 = 33,5fps
Batman AC Cat 12.7 = 33,7fps

BF3 Cat 12.3 = 26fps
BF3 Cat 12.7 = 26,1fps

Civ V Cat 12.3 = 37fps
Civ V Cat 12.3 = 35,2fps (Lower than cat 12.3)

Crysis 2 Cat 12.3 = 25,6fps
Crysis 2 Cat 12.3 = 25,6fps

So even with Cat 12.7 the performance difference should stay the same as before, there is no way that HD7770 is 40% faster than HD5770/6770.
I thought AMD made some progression in Batman and skyrim in their latest drivers? the 7850 gains about 10% though..
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
13,606
2,696
126
The HD7770 could be memory bandwidth limited in Batman AC at 1920x1200, but there is no performance gains even at 1680x1050.

HD7850 gains ~10% in Batman AC at 1920x1200 but nothing in the other three games.
 

Haserath

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
793
1
81
I thought AMD made some progression in Batman and skyrim in their latest drivers? the 7850 gains about 10% though..
Notice how one shows 16x AF and the other not though. Several other cards improve about the same.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
You are comparing 12.3 vs 12.3? Also, game or hardware settings may have changed between the two reviews; you have to compare within-same-review 7770 vs 5770 numbers, and I already stated that I was wrong about the 40% and it's more like 27% overall (all resolutions, games). In a few games the 7770 may win by more, as tessellation should have improved since the 5770 era, for example, but it's still probably relatively minor and in the low 30% range even for those games.

I dont see any significant performance increases from Cat 12.3 to Cat 12.7

Cat 12.3 review
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_7770_Vapor-X/8.html

Cat 12.7 review
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_650_Power_Edition/7.html

Lets see Batman AC, BF3, Civ V and Crysis 2 at 1920x1200 from the above reviews.

Batman AC Cat 12.3 = 33,5fps
Batman AC Cat 12.7 = 33,7fps

BF3 Cat 12.3 = 26fps
BF3 Cat 12.7 = 26,1fps

Civ V Cat 12.3 = 37fps
Civ V Cat 12.3 = 35,2fps (Lower than cat 12.3)

Crysis 2 Cat 12.3 = 25,6fps
Crysis 2 Cat 12.3 = 25,6fps

So even with Cat 12.7 the performance difference should stay the same as before, there is no way that HD7770 is 40% faster than HD5770/6770.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
13,606
2,696
126
You are comparing 12.3 vs 12.3? Also, game or hardware settings may have changed between the two reviews; you have to compare within-same-review 7770 vs 5770 numbers, and I already stated that I was wrong about the 40% and it's more like 27% overall (all resolutions, games). In a few games the 7770 may win by more, as tessellation should have improved since the 5770 era, for example, but it's still probably relatively minor and in the low 30% range even for those games.
They used the same hardware for both reviews, the only difference is in the drivers. The performance difference between the HD5770/6770 and HD7770 is closer to 20% even in newer DX-11 games.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_7770_Vapor-X/5.html


http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_650_Power_Edition/5.html
 
May 13, 2009
12,296
550
126
I never thought I'd be the guy to skip a whole gen of cards but it's exactly what I'm doing. Looks like I'm skipping ivy bridge as well too. The move to 28nm has been disappointing to say the least and that's with CPU and GPU.

On the bright side next year I'll be in for a heck of an upgrade with next gen CPU and GPU.
 

kaihonsou

Member
Jul 30, 2010
85
0
0
I never thought I'd be the guy to skip a whole gen of cards but it's exactly what I'm doing. Looks like I'm skipping ivy bridge as well too. The move to 28nm has been disappointing to say the least and that's with CPU and GPU.

On the bright side next year I'll be in for a heck of an upgrade with next gen CPU and GPU.
Im buying a bigger monitor to justify buying a new graphics card.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
760
126
Indeed, the ~$100 market for this generation is depressing. :(
The same applies for other price levels below $300.

Look at the stock 7850/660/7870 cards vs. HD6970. Well you could have gotten an HD6950 2GB for $230-240 on Newegg around February-March 2011 which unlocked and overclocked to HD6970 speeds. So barely any improvement and only a marginal 20% performance increase if you overclock the 660/7870 cards from the 6950 @ unlocked.



Keep in mind HD5000/6000 series represented a period in time when AMD competed on price/performance. On top of that, this round NV was late by 6-8+ months with <$300 GPU roll-out. This is why it's almost a worst case scenario for improvement in price/performance.

We just went from 3 of the most underpriced ATI/AMD generations (HD4000-6000 series) to a generation where NV couldn't manufacture the GK110, took from March to October to roll-out its entire desktop GTX600 line, and unfortunately this has allowed AMD to dictate high prices on the low-end and mid-range. Then we have the case that 28nm yields and wafer constraints resulted in gimped clock speeds and price increases per die size.

I think next generation will be much better. Still even now HD7970 1Ghz is going for $380. Will HD8970 cost just $380? Maybe if GTX780 crushes it. At the same time if NV is once again late by 6+ months with its GTX700 low-end and mid-range roll-out and doesn't drop prices on GTX670/680 (much like they didn't drop prices on 570/580 cards), AMD could once again raise prices and HD8750 will be $139-159 or something.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
760
126
Indeed, the ~$100 market for this generation is depressing. :(
The truth is the ~$100 market has always been really bad. Even your HD5770...well I thought it was overpriced as well. When it came out, it barely cost less than the faster HD4890, while HD4870/GTX260 216 were going for $120-130.

Really, to get the full picture we should look at things like GTX480 was going for $499 on March 2010 and now it's just $199 on Newegg.

The high-end GPU market has definitely improved, but the sub-$250 GPU performance has barely moved. My 7970 OC is 60-70% faster than my HD6950 @ unlocked was. That's a huge increase. The reason why this generation's price/performance looks much worse for AMD is because they finally started charging high prices. If HD6950 was priced using ATI's historical pricing, it would have been $399 like X850 Pro was.

If right now you sell your 5770 and add some $, and get a $178 HD7850 2GB and overclock it to GTX580 speeds, you'll get more than double the GPU speed increase.

Contrast this to $380 HD7970 1Ghz vs. $480 GTX680 which are 5% apart. So there is still value to be had in the sub-$200 market if you resell your GPU.

See there are nice upgrades to be had but you are going to need to wait until HD7850 hits $99 to get 2x the performance increase from your 5770.
 
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Red Hawk

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2011
3,266
169
106
At least the 5770 had the advantage of being a first generation DirectX 11 card, so it could do stuff like tessellation and DirectCompute that the 4870 and 260 couldn't even try. That added value for gaming, if not in general performance.

I just ordered an Asus 7870 that went on sale a couple days ago, so I won't be sticking with this 5770 for long.
 

Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,542
103
106
Even more depressing is my GTX 460 is flaking out. All my games just crash now. Sometimes my PC even locks up. Time to play the RMA game, yay!
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
760
126
I guess there are 2 ways to look at it:

1) The progress in GPUs has really slowed down so you end up skipping a generation to really get good price/performance or even general performance increase (this is not great for enthusiasts who always want more and more performance as pace of GPU performance has slowed down vs. what we are used to seeing at the same price point and with new node shrinks). At the same time, NV listened to consumers who didn't like 270W power consumption of GTX480. Personally, I was fine with it and would have gladly welcomed the option of a 270W GK110 GTX680 .....

2) Because most games today are console ports, you can keep your videocard for much longer without needing an upgrade. In the past this was just not possible and you were forced to upgrade quickly as graphics themselves progressed much quicker and your videocard would soon be a total slide-show or run out of VRAM. In the end, right now you end up saving a lot more $ since you don't have to upgrade as often. In the past, keeping an up-to-date desktop PC was much more expensive (especially since CPUs were outdated every 2 years literally).

For example here is a sub-£300 USD gaming PC from a summer 2012 build @ Digital Foundry:

CPU: Intel Pentium G840 at 2.8GHz - £54.83
Graphics Core: MSI Radeon HD 6770 - £69.90
Motherboard: ASRock H61M-VS - £34.03
RAM: Crucial Ballistix 2x 4GB RAM - £32.99
Hard Drive: 500GB Seagate Spinpoint F3 - £55.00
Optical Drive: Samsung SH-222BB DVD Rewriter - £12.98
Power Supply: Corsair 430W V2 CX Series - £36.40
Case: Casecom MA-1199 mATX - £16.64
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-introducing-the-digital-foundry-pc

^ That low-end system still delivers FAR superior performance and graphics to PS3/360. You can probably put together such a system for $400 USD today or &#8364;350-375.

Guess how much a 500GB PS3 Ultra-Slim is going to cost? &#8364;299!
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20120919071155_Sony_Debuts_Smaller_and_Lighter_PlayStation_3.html

Do you think you could have played many games @ 50-60 fps at 1080P on a $100 GPU during Radeon 8500 vs. GF3 Ti 500, Radeon 9800/FX5900, GF6800/X800/850 GPU, 7800GTX 256mb vs. X1800XT eras? Not a chance!



I am going to be surprised if PS4/Nextbox have a GPU much more powerful than an HD7870 2GB by end of 2013. After reselling the 5770, you are getting a great upgrade :)

The truth is now you don't *need* a $400-500 GPU anymore to play games with great graphics. We buy it because we can/ want to. Back in the days when Unreal, Doom 3 or Far Cry came out, that 2-year old $500 GPU was good for the trash bin. Even when Crysis 1 came out, $600 8800GTX was humiliated. And that wasn't even that long ago.

Can you bring a $215 HD7870 to its knees at 1080P today? Yes, if you go wild with DOF in Metro 2033 or enable UberSampling in Witcher 2. Otherwise, it destroys 95% of games at 1080P. In the past you bought a $215 GPU just to be able to run the game.....nevermind max it out.
 
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Red Hawk

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2011
3,266
169
106
Honestly even an unlocked Llano or Trinity system could outdo a 360 or PS3. We are long overdue on a new generation of consoles.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/123529-nvidia-deeply-unhappy-with-tsmc-claims-22nm-essentially-worthless

Wafer costs going up up up = less price/perf jumps as you shrink, especially when the rest of the components aren't shrink as fast.

Also, you can't look at just the GPU alone. The GPU on a 7970 is a huge fraction of the total cost of the board, but a 7770 GPU is a much smaller fraction of the total cost of the board, which includes PCB, VRMs, memory modules, marketing and QA and testing and and factory/assembly rent/utilities/other fixed costs, etc. as well as packaging, distribution, allowing for RMAs and returns, giving retailers their cut, paying employees to put together stuff, paying employees to test/validate custom cooling, etc. So even if the cost of the GPU shrinks, the other costs may not shrink as fast--or may even grow, such as the price for transportation.

(Similarly, SSD cost is not linear because the raw amount of NAND is just one part of the equation. There are product QA, testing, validation, etc. costs, costs of the shell and screws and transportation and various employee costs, retailers take their cut, etc.)

Going to 450mm wafers helps, but it's a one-off for the next several years at minimum... unless you think we'll have another jump to, say, 600mm shortly afterwards.
 
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