"You gotta stick it in." Walmart now requiring use of smart chip CC's?

[KeithTalent]

Cool! Does that mean I can officially post in the First World Problems thread now?

No need, you already have your own! http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=36573285

KT

 

[jaedaliu]

And why do you prefer the chip?

better security.

 

[SunnyD]

No need, you already have your own! http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=36573285

KT

:hmm:

I fail to see the problem...

 

[dawheat]

Come to think of it, what is the point of the chip or the signature anyway, you can buy something online with just the written information on the card. (ex: if someone steals your card or even sees an image of both sides). My guess is that it's just a false sense of security. Also if it fails too many times, or you forget your pin, they can key it in manually. I've had that happen. So if you steal a card you can just act like you forgot your pin and they'll key it in and it wont be a problem.

The stupidest invention is the RFID chip though. Someone can just swipe by you with a RFID reader and grab all your info. Or at very least, make a RFID chip and make purchases that way.

It's about who takes liability for fraudulent transactions. Online and manually entered transactions are almost always on the merchant (unless they use a 3DS step-up) - so they need to be much more aggressive in their anti-fraud measures.

In-store are almost always on the card issuer so merchants like that, in addition to lower fees. I believe the upcoming rules for chip cards in the US state that after a certain date, liability will fall to the party who is less secure. So if your card issuer has updated your card with a chip and the merchant still only has magstripe terminals, the merchant takes liability. If the card is magstripe and the merchant supports chip, the card issuer takes the liability. And if both are chip enabled, in-store liability falls back to the card issuer.

 

[IronWing]

Cheap motor oil. Still a good reason to Walmart.

And you can change it in their parking lot.

 

[nickbits]

Gotta say it took forever and a day for the damn thing to do its thing. I'm guessing all the non-US folks will probably be posting in this thread something like "Congrats for finally catching up with the rest of the world."

The US is still behind. Most of the chip cards in the US are chip & signature, while the rest of the world mostly uses chip & PIN.

 

[SunnyD]

The US is still behind. Most of the chip cards in the US are chip & signature, while the rest of the world mostly uses chip & PIN.

LOL @ Chip & Anything. More like Chip & walk.

That's right, us US folks are so damn lazy that we still do the same thing we do with our mag stripes... Walmart? No signature required for any transaction under something like $40. Same thing goes with the chip my friend.

Wake me when my bank account is tied to my DNA or something.

 

[DCal430]

It's about who takes liability for fraudulent transactions. Online and manually entered transactions are almost always on the merchant (unless they use a 3DS step-up) - so they need to be much more aggressive in their anti-fraud measures.

In-store are almost always on the card issuer so merchants like that, in addition to lower fees. I believe the upcoming rules for chip cards in the US state that after a certain date, liability will fall to the party who is less secure. So if your card issuer has updated your card with a chip and the merchant still only has magstripe terminals, the merchant takes liability. If the card is magstripe and the merchant supports chip, the card issuer takes the liability. And if both are chip enabled, in-store liability falls back to the card issuer.

Actually if both are chip enabled with pin, liability falls on the consumer. This is big reason for this, to push liability onto the consumer.

 

[Imp]

LOL @ Chip & Anything. More like Chip & walk.

That's right, us US folks are so damn lazy that we still do the same thing we do with our mag stripes... Walmart? No signature required for any transaction under something like $40. Same thing goes with the chip my friend.

Wake me when my bank account is tied to my DNA or something.

IIRC, it was like that when the chip was first introduced -- no PIN for under $40. Now I have to PIN it for a $2 coffee. Also, either my card is busted or PayPass and Wave isn't enabled on a lot of machines. I haven't used it in years because the few times I tried, it wouldn't recognize and I gave up.

From the sounds of it, maybe retailers are disabling the Wave and Pay Pass features so they can force everyone to type in a PIN. This way they don't have to pay for fraudulent purchases?

P.S. Yes, RFID = huh? What was it? The next gen scanners can read your cards from a foot away?

 

[Maximilian]

Swipe? Is that when it uses the magnetic strip on the back?

Dont think thats been common in the UK since early last decade, at least I don't remember it.

 

[JEDI]

And why do you prefer the chip? Where I work we have that stupid machine where if your card is chipped you have to insert it. It's stupidly slow, like to the tune of 5x longer than if the customer had swiped a card. And stores still will verify it's you. So basically it's just a longer process to accomplish the same thing. Also about 90% of the people who have these cards have no idea how to use them and the 1st time they try it takes like an extra 60 seconds to make them understand

"wait, I have to put the card in the bottom? Where at the bottom? How exactly? This isn't working"

I hate fucking chipped cards so much, and I'm confused at what benefits this chip provides, I know a line with 10 people who have these cards will take so fucking long people behind them might start leaving. Where I from swipe to your done is literally 2 seconds, a chipped card is around 15 seconds.

all newly issued/re-issued cards are now required to have a chip.
i can see hilarity ensuing next year

 

[WelshBloke]

And why do you prefer the chip? Where I work we have that stupid machine where if your card is chipped you have to insert it. It's stupidly slow, like to the tune of 5x longer than if the customer had swiped a card. And stores still will verify it's you. So basically it's just a longer process to accomplish the same thing. Also about 90% of the people who have these cards have no idea how to use them and the 1st time they try it takes like an extra 60 seconds to make them understand

"wait, I have to put the card in the bottom? Where at the bottom? How exactly? This isn't working"

I hate fucking chipped cards so much, and I'm confused at what benefits this chip provides, I know a line with 10 people who have these cards will take so fucking long people behind them might start leaving. Where I from swipe to your done is literally 2 seconds, a chipped card is around 15 seconds.

How fucking stupid are the people in your area that they can't work out where to put a card in a card reader?

 

[JEDI]

Unless the machine is slow, I'm in and out in 10 seconds. I've never noticed the chip tripping people up when I'm out shopping -- I'm usually zoned out until it's my turn. It's been standard here for years, so maybe people are used to it by now.

If you want to talk about tripping up, let's talk self-checkout, now that just blows peoples' minds. The thing's been around for years at certain stores.

Old system: swipe, walk away. You lose a swipe card, it's open season. Best case scenario: you lose a chip card, they'll have to get lucky, shop online and figure out your billing address, find a gas station, or some other place that takes swipe cards. Obviously, you can find a way to get around it, but at least it's something. Bad thing, I heard, is that if your card does get stolen along with your pin, it's a lot harder to have the charge forgiven.

Edit: Extra note about slow machines, yes, one machine at my work cafeteria is like that. Total POS. The other one is like 95% of the ones I usually use: near instant between when I enter my code and it tells me to remove the card.

what PIN?
stick the chipped card in the slot. press yes/no at the amount shown. done.
just like you swiped.

no idea how a chipped card is better?
nor what the extra protections are from putting it in the slot vs swiping?

 

[dainthomas]

all newly issued/re-issued cards are now required to have a chip.
i can see hilarity ensuing next year

I just opened a new account with USAA and didn't get a chip card. And I honestly have never heard of them until reading this thread. And I was just in San Diego and never saw anyone using one of those, unless I was just totally oblivious.

 

[WelshBloke]

what PIN?
stick the chipped card in the slot. press yes/no at the amount shown. done.
just like you swiped.

no idea how a chipped card is better?
nor what the extra protections are from putting it in the slot vs swiping?

Why the fuck do they not require a pin if they are going to effort of issuing chip and pin capable cards?

That's just...

 

[Imp]

what PIN?
stick the chipped card in the slot. press yes/no at the amount shown. done.
just like you swiped.

no idea how a chipped card is better?
nor what the extra protections are from putting it in the slot vs swiping?

How do you not have to enter a PIN? I've never not been prompted for a PIN if I insert. Pay Pass, Wave, phone, and online are the only non-PIN ways I know of to use a chipped card.

I honestly thought the US was ahead of Canada on this thing, but I guess you have 250 million more people to roll it out to.

 

[IronWing]

Why the fuck do they not require a pin if they are going to effort of issuing chip and pin capable cards?

That's just...

True, the few times I've tried the tap thing it asked for nothing. No sig, no pin, just tap.

 

[WelshBloke]

True, the few times I've tried the tap thing it asked for nothing. No sig, no pin, just tap.

By "the tap thing" do you mean contactless payment?

I'm fine with that being without a pin. It's limited to £20 and you can contest the payments pretty easily.
Not requiring a pin on a chip and pin card that can be used for much larger payments is pretty stupid.

 

[Imp]

True, the few times I've tried the tap thing it asked for nothing. No sig, no pin, just tap.

Tap is supposed to be for lower cost purchases. It's instant, when it works In my experience, and very cool. But it doesn't work for me and/or lots of places just don't have/enable the feature.

Sounds like the US is just rolling things out so everything is in the transition phase. With so many people, it will probably take a few more years before everything starts getting enforced. Here, my banks sent me letters telling me that I had to get a chipped card by a certain date -- they sent it to me automatically -- so it sounds like they had a planned cut-off date.

That or you guys are doing something completely different despite you guys (i.e. Visa, MasterCard, AXP) coming up with this shit.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

Is this a debit card only thing? I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

 

[IronWing]

This is what I was referring to:
http://usa.visa.com/personal/security/card-technology/visa-paywave.jsp

 

[WelshBloke]

Is this a debit card only thing? I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

Chip and pin is a way of securing card payment, it doesn't matter if it's a credit or debit card as long as it's got the chip in it.
You stick your card in a machine, the machine reads the encrypted information in the card and you put in the correct pin to authenticate the payment.

The chip makes the card hard to clone and the encrypted pin stored on it means no one can use a lost/stolen card.

This is what I was referring to:
http://usa.visa.com/personal/security/card-technology/visa-paywave.jsp

That's contactless payment, it's limited to low cost transactions here as although it's fantastically convenient it's pretty insecure (you just need possession of the card to use it). It's great for buying fast food or paying at car park barriers.

 

[biostud]

The US is still behind. Most of the chip cards in the US are chip & signature, while the rest of the world mostly uses chip & PIN.

This!

We've had pin+swipe for decades and now it's pin+chip, enforced during the last couple of years. Originally our payment card (Visa/Dankort) required to have a photo on it, but the banks said it was too expensive and a signature is more secure...?!?

While a photo in itself should not be the security feature, I think it's a pretty good indication on whether the owner and user of the card is the same person.

 

[KeithTalent]

Tap is supposed to be for lower cost purchases. It's instant, when it works In my experience, and very cool. But it doesn't work for me and/or lots of places just don't have/enable the feature.

Yeah, I love the tap feature when it works but it's not available in anywhere near enough places. They should have tap with a $50 limit everywhere, everything above that you have to chip/pin; that would be awesome.

KT

 

[SunnyD]

How fucking stupid are the people in your area that they can't work out where to put a card in a card reader?

To be fair, putting the card slot on the bottom of the fucking terminal with the terminal angled downward sitting about 5" over a small table at chest level isn't exactly the greatest location to put something that people (here in the US) aren't familiar with and it most definitely isn't a convenient location to shove the card into.

The terminals they have around here that I've seen all have the same layout, and frankly it isn't convenient, well laid out or well labeled at all. Remember, the US is new to this whole chip thing (relatively speaking).

Why the fuck do they not require a pin if they are going to effort of issuing chip and pin capable cards?

That's just...

I'll be honest, I don't know what the PIN is for this card. I'm aware that most credit cards give PIN numbers when they're assigned these days so that you can use them for cash advances, but I don't know if that's the same PIN you'd use for this and frankly I shred that without any intention of ever using it given the ridiculous fees that the cards charge for cash advances anyway.