You Can't Soak the Rich

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121124460502305693.html

Kurt Hauser is a San Francisco investment economist who, 15 years ago, published fresh and eye-opening data about the federal tax system. His findings imply that there are draconian constraints on the ability of tax-rate increases to generate fresh revenues. I think his discovery deserves to be called Hauser's Law, because it is as central to the economics of taxation as Boyle's Law is to the physics of gases. Yet economists and policy makers are barely aware of it.

Like science, economics advances as verifiable patterns are recognized and codified. But economics is in a far earlier stage of evolution than physics. Unfortunately, it is often poisoned by political wishful thinking, just as medieval science was poisoned by religious doctrine. Taxation is an important example.

The interactions among the myriad participants in a tax system are as impossible to unravel as are those of the molecules in a gas, and the effects of tax policies are speculative and highly contentious. Will increasing tax rates on the rich increase revenues, as Barack Obama hopes, or hold back the economy, as John McCain fears? Or both?

Mr. Hauser uncovered the means to answer these questions definitively. On this page in 1993, he stated that "No matter what the tax rates have been, in postwar America tax revenues have remained at about 19.5% of GDP." What a pity that his discovery has not been more widely disseminated.

he chart nearby, updating the evidence to 2007, confirms Hauser's Law. The federal tax "yield" (revenues divided by GDP) has remained close to 19.5%, even as the top tax bracket was brought down from 91% to the present 35%. This is what scientists call an "independence theorem," and it cuts the Gordian Knot of tax policy debate.

The data show that the tax yield has been independent of marginal tax rates over this period, but tax revenue is directly proportional to GDP. So if we want to increase tax revenue, we need to increase GDP.

What happens if we instead raise tax rates? Economists of all persuasions accept that a tax rate hike will reduce GDP, in which case Hauser's Law says it will also lower tax revenue. That's a highly inconvenient truth for redistributive tax policy, and it flies in the face of deeply felt beliefs about social justice. It would surely be unpopular today with those presidential candidates who plan to raise tax rates on the rich ? if they knew about it.

Although Hauser's Law sounds like a restatement of the Laffer Curve (and Mr. Hauser did cite Arthur Laffer in his original article), it has independent validity. Because Mr. Laffer's curve is a theoretical insight, theoreticians find it easy to quibble with. Test cases, where the economy responds to a tax change, always lend themselves to many alternative explanations. Conventional economists, despite immense publicity, have yet to swallow the Laffer Curve. When it is mentioned at all by critics, it is often as an object of scorn.

Because Mr. Hauser's horizontal straight line is a simple fact, it is ultimately far more compelling. It also presents a major opportunity. It seems likely that the tax system could maintain a 19.5% yield with a top bracket even lower than 35%.

What makes Hauser's Law work? For supply-siders there is no mystery. As Mr. Hauser said: "Raising taxes encourages taxpayers to shift, hide and underreport income. . . . Higher taxes reduce the incentives to work, produce, invest and save, thereby dampening overall economic activity and job creation."

Putting it a different way, capital migrates away from regimes in which it is treated harshly, and toward regimes in which it is free to be invested profitably and safely. In this regard, the capital controlled by our richest citizens is especially tax-intolerant.

The economics of taxation will be moribund until economists accept and explain Hauser's Law. For progress to be made, they will have to face up to it, reconcile it with other facts, and incorporate it within the body of accepted knowledge. And if this requires overturning existing doctrine, then so be it.

Presidential candidates, instead of disputing how much more tax to impose on whom, would be better advised to come up with plans for increasing GDP while ridding the tax system of its wearying complexity. That would be a formula for success.



I wonder whether Obama's people are reading this, and how they figure to pay for his new social programs.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
As the Fair Deal (FDR) showed, it's plenty possible to increase the share the wealthy (who get all that wealth from society) pay back to society.

There is some issue with the crippling of the ability of democracies' ability to tax, but given that the US has the lowest taxes in the industrialized world, we're dragging them down.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Yes I understand winnar111, therefore we should give all the money to the rich, not tax them, and then must also discover the resulting logic of you can't get blood out of a turnip by soaking the poor either.

You forget the Willie Sutton wisdom as a well known bank robber. And when Willie was asked why he robbed banks, he pointed out that it was where the money is.

And now winnar111 now talks about real lipstick on a pig, rob the piggie banks of the children of the poor as the way to finance our Federal Government? Not even Willie Sutton was able to buy that winnar 111 logic.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Nice spin from the author. First, he distances himself from the laffer curve, then invokes the underlying thesis of the laffer curve-

Higher taxes reduce the incentives to work, produce, invest and save, thereby dampening overall economic activity and job creation."

Heh. pretty weak bamboozle. We're nowhere near the point of diminished returns theorized by Laffer. High earners aren't going to stay at home if their effective taxrates go up by 5% or even 10% of income. It's not like they weren't doing what they do pre-Reagan, is it?

This part I'll agree with, kinda-

What makes Hauser's Law work? For supply-siders there is no mystery. As Mr. Hauser said: "Raising taxes encourages taxpayers to shift, hide and underreport income."

It's tough to imagine lying, cheating, and stealing at a higher rate than practiced by the financial elite today, but if you say so...

Maybe if we told the IRS to lay off the EIC filings, quit trying to get blood out of turnips, and to concentrate on very high income complex returns instead, we just might be able to discourage such behavior. Even the boyscout ranch federal prisons for wealthy offenders are viewed as undesirable by those at the top.

Oh, and correlation is not causation, no matter who claims it is. Has it occurred to you that perhaps that 19.5% revenue as % of GDP has merely been the goal of tax policy, rather than a result?

Probably not...
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,849
10,164
136
Originally posted by: Craig234
As the Fair Deal (FDR) showed, it's plenty possible to increase the share the wealthy (who get all that wealth from society) pay back to society.

Directly yes, but when you take money from your employer he takes money from you.

You WILL pay for it, even if it is indirectly through your wages or the costs of things you buy.
 

tfcmasta97

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2004
2,003
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121124460502305693.html

Kurt Hauser is a San Francisco investment economist who, 15 years ago, published fresh and eye-opening data about the federal tax system. His findings imply that there are draconian constraints on the ability of tax-rate increases to generate fresh revenues. I think his discovery deserves to be called Hauser's Law, because it is as central to the economics of taxation as Boyle's Law is to the physics of gases. Yet economists and policy makers are barely aware of it.

Like science, economics advances as verifiable patterns are recognized and codified. But economics is in a far earlier stage of evolution than physics. Unfortunately, it is often poisoned by political wishful thinking, just as medieval science was poisoned by religious doctrine. Taxation is an important example.

The interactions among the myriad participants in a tax system are as impossible to unravel as are those of the molecules in a gas, and the effects of tax policies are speculative and highly contentious. Will increasing tax rates on the rich increase revenues, as Barack Obama hopes, or hold back the economy, as John McCain fears? Or both?

Mr. Hauser uncovered the means to answer these questions definitively. On this page in 1993, he stated that "No matter what the tax rates have been, in postwar America tax revenues have remained at about 19.5% of GDP." What a pity that his discovery has not been more widely disseminated.

he chart nearby, updating the evidence to 2007, confirms Hauser's Law. The federal tax "yield" (revenues divided by GDP) has remained close to 19.5%, even as the top tax bracket was brought down from 91% to the present 35%. This is what scientists call an "independence theorem," and it cuts the Gordian Knot of tax policy debate.

The data show that the tax yield has been independent of marginal tax rates over this period, but tax revenue is directly proportional to GDP. So if we want to increase tax revenue, we need to increase GDP.

What happens if we instead raise tax rates? Economists of all persuasions accept that a tax rate hike will reduce GDP, in which case Hauser's Law says it will also lower tax revenue. That's a highly inconvenient truth for redistributive tax policy, and it flies in the face of deeply felt beliefs about social justice. It would surely be unpopular today with those presidential candidates who plan to raise tax rates on the rich ? if they knew about it.

Although Hauser's Law sounds like a restatement of the Laffer Curve (and Mr. Hauser did cite Arthur Laffer in his original article), it has independent validity. Because Mr. Laffer's curve is a theoretical insight, theoreticians find it easy to quibble with. Test cases, where the economy responds to a tax change, always lend themselves to many alternative explanations. Conventional economists, despite immense publicity, have yet to swallow the Laffer Curve. When it is mentioned at all by critics, it is often as an object of scorn.

Because Mr. Hauser's horizontal straight line is a simple fact, it is ultimately far more compelling. It also presents a major opportunity. It seems likely that the tax system could maintain a 19.5% yield with a top bracket even lower than 35%.

What makes Hauser's Law work? For supply-siders there is no mystery. As Mr. Hauser said: "Raising taxes encourages taxpayers to shift, hide and underreport income. . . . Higher taxes reduce the incentives to work, produce, invest and save, thereby dampening overall economic activity and job creation."

Putting it a different way, capital migrates away from regimes in which it is treated harshly, and toward regimes in which it is free to be invested profitably and safely. In this regard, the capital controlled by our richest citizens is especially tax-intolerant.

The economics of taxation will be moribund until economists accept and explain Hauser's Law. For progress to be made, they will have to face up to it, reconcile it with other facts, and incorporate it within the body of accepted knowledge. And if this requires overturning existing doctrine, then so be it.

Presidential candidates, instead of disputing how much more tax to impose on whom, would be better advised to come up with plans for increasing GDP while ridding the tax system of its wearying complexity. That would be a formula for success.



I wonder whether Obama's people are reading this, and how they figure to pay for his new social programs.

Economics says raising tax rates/investment above a certain point would bring down overall output [GDP] but the current tax rates are perceived to be far below this point. Although there is of course a drop in consumption that matches up with the increase in tax.

Economics also says that increasing tax rates/investment raises growth rates for the country which may make it much more attractive if you look at it in 4 year periods or give some time for the growth to occur.

I wonder whether McCain's people can understand this.... but they're mccain people in the first place so there's little hope
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Not to worry, the rich are currently 'soaking' themselves.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
136
Imagine that, the Wall Street Journal came out with another editorial in support of the rich. Who would have thought that?

The Wall Street Journal is the NRA of economic thought-anything that contributes to the increase of wealth among those currently wealthy is good in their books.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Just from the post, not the link, this tells me not that we should not overtax the rich but that in stead we can cut taxes to $0 for everybody except the rich, have them pay 19.5%, and we're good to go.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
The argument is pretty simplistic in the face of a complex tax code. As tax rates rise, the level of taxpayer involvement with his tax avoidance team rises. That's the LAW that is applicable here. As long as tax havens, tax loopholes, and 1,000s of deductions exist, the rich will avoid paying most of these high taxes.

-Robert
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Kurt Hauser = Supply-Side

Supply-Side = VooDoo Economics

VooDoo Economics = $11 Trillion Federal Debt
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
As the Fair Deal (FDR) showed, it's plenty possible to increase the share the wealthy (who get all that wealth from society) pay back to society.

There is some issue with the crippling of the ability of democracies' ability to tax, but given that the US has the lowest taxes in the industrialized world, we're dragging them down.

Comrade, socialist countries are >>>

Enjoy the trip.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: Craig234
As the Fair Deal (FDR) showed, it's plenty possible to increase the share the wealthy (who get all that wealth from society) pay back to society.

There is some issue with the crippling of the ability of democracies' ability to tax, but given that the US has the lowest taxes in the industrialized world, we're dragging them down.

Comrade, socialist countries are >>>

Enjoy the trip.

This is the same FDR who initiated the social security tax of 1% of first $2000 of income, if I recall, and the same FDR who sold billions in war bonds because he didn't have enough money.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: Craig234
As the Fair Deal (FDR) showed, it's plenty possible to increase the share the wealthy (who get all that wealth from society) pay back to society.

There is some issue with the crippling of the ability of democracies' ability to tax, but given that the US has the lowest taxes in the industrialized world, we're dragging them down.

Comrade, socialist countries are >>>

Enjoy the trip.

you live in a socialist country
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: Craig234
As the Fair Deal (FDR) showed, it's plenty possible to increase the share the wealthy (who get all that wealth from society) pay back to society.

There is some issue with the crippling of the ability of democracies' ability to tax, but given that the US has the lowest taxes in the industrialized world, we're dragging them down.

Comrade, socialist countries are >>>

Enjoy the trip.

This is the same FDR who initiated the social security tax of 1% of first $2000 of income, if I recall, and the same FDR who sold billions in war bonds because he didn't have enough money.

Would this be the same FDR who was running the country while fighting 2 wars while bringing the country out of a massive depression?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: Craig234
As the Fair Deal (FDR) showed, it's plenty possible to increase the share the wealthy (who get all that wealth from society) pay back to society.

There is some issue with the crippling of the ability of democracies' ability to tax, but given that the US has the lowest taxes in the industrialized world, we're dragging them down.

Comrade, socialist countries are >>>

Enjoy the trip.

This is the same FDR who initiated the social security tax of 1% of first $2000 of income, if I recall, and the same FDR who sold billions in war bonds because he didn't have enough money.

Would this be the same FDR who was running the country while fighting 2 wars while bringing the country out of a massive depression?

It was the social spending of funds (that were not available) and then followed by war spending that pulled the country out. 30 years later, the same cycle was repeated. Except the country at that time was not in a depression.

Now you have the war cycle potentially leading the social cycle.

 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Craig234
As the Fair Deal (FDR) showed, it's plenty possible to increase the share the wealthy (who get all that wealth from society) pay back to society.

Directly yes, but when you take money from your employer he takes money from you.

You WILL pay for it, even if it is indirectly through your wages or the costs of things you buy.

I'm ok with that. I don't mind paying for it if the plan is reasonable.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: winnar111

Topic Title: You Can't Soak the Rich

"You" can speak for yourself. Last time I checked, when a large segment of that small segment known as "the rich" got that way by stealing their wealth from everyone else, and the rest of us have no money left, what "you" would do in your idealistic, unregulated "capitalism at any cost" society is irrelevant.

When the nation needs funds to recover from the crimes committed by some of "the rich," and "the rich" are the only ones left to "soak," as Willie Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks, "Because that's where the money is."

Of course, many good people who became wealthy though hard, honest, productive work and good, honest investments will be hurt. They are as much victims of those who gamed and raped the financial system as anyone else, although they probably won't suffer as much as those left broke, jobless and/or homeless.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,066
4,712
126
Hmm, lets look at the numbers in the middle of each major rich tax rate. I got my data from the BEA (goes back to 1929).

1929: top tax rate = 24%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 10.1%
1933: top tax rate = 63%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 15.2%
1937: top tax rate = 79%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 15.5%
1941: top tax rate = 81%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 18.8%
1943: top tax rate = 88%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 24.0%
1945: top tax rate = 94%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 23.0%
1947: top tax rate = 86%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 22.7%
1949: top tax rate = 82%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 20.1%
1953: top tax rate = 92%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 23.9%
1958: top tax rate = 91%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 23.2%
1966: top tax rate = 70%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 25.7%
1975: top tax rate = 70%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 27.0%
1984: top tax rate = 50%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 28.3%
1989: top tax rate = 28%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 29.4%
1992: top tax rate = 31%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 29.0%
1997: top tax rate = 40%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 30.7%
2005: top tax rate = 35%. Federal current receipts as percent of GDP: 29.1%

As you can see, dropping the top tax rate BOTH increased (eg from 1958 to 1996 or from 1975 to 1984) AND decreased (eg from 1945 to 1949 or from 1997 to 2005) the tax revenues as % of GDP. It isn't simple like in the OP's article. It certainly isn't a straight line at 19.5% of GDP. The only real conclusion we can make is that over time the federal government got bigger.
 
May 28, 2006
149
0
0
Cut taxes for rich people who show their gratitude by outsourcing jobs. How does cutting taxes for rich people help GDP?

It is comforting to see the right wing hasn't forgotten how to misuse the Laffer curve, ie, "all tax cuts increase tax revenues".