Yet another raise thread: Well below mean&median wages in the region

[WackyDan]

So I'm going to sum up to you what others have said and what my take is. I'm a 44 year old Systems Engineer working for one of the tech giants.

1. You were fresh out of college. You were supposed to be a bargain due to that. I worked for a medium sized company back in 98-2006 and we hired a lot of college newbs. The job was a great job to get started with, with decent starting pay. It was also an awesome job to network with as we were contracted out to many of the tech industry giants. Many didn't last there as we hired them in at 30-32k with no experience and they felt that simply due to their degree they should be worth $100k after a year, but not a single one of them understood the level of work that $100k would take. We let one guy go after he kept insisting he was worth $100k in that position yet his billing was only about $55k per year. He refused to understand the math and continued to harp on management and myself that he was worth more. We grew sick of it, and we dismissed him as a lesson to him and all. They were young, inexperienced, and profoundly unprofessional. After five years on the job they would be making $45k-$60k depending on their utilization rates, and they would most likely be picked up by a client directly with a healthy pay raise.... So the message here is, you paid your dues and it is time to shop around.

2. Ask for the raise. ASK FOR IT. It does not hurt to ask. Before you ask, make sure you have a Linkedin.com profile and that it is 80% complete. Then make sure you are linkedin with your managers and peers. THEN you ask for your raise. Be realistic. It is exceptionally rare for a company to raise your salary to the median/mean just because of your research into the matter. Research the local job market and demand for your skills in that market. I wouldn't expect anything more than 5-10% if they bite. Now, the reason for the Linkedin profile and 80% is important. Just before and after you ask for the raise you should be editing your profile. Add new experiences, add awards, or accolades you've received. Add volunteer work, and ask your peers to review your contributions/skills on Linkedin. Your managers and peers will be getting emails from linkedin telling them you are updating your profile. That will signal to them that you are shopping around or getting ready to leave. As simple as that sounds, it works and there is very little downside to it - in other words, literally zero risk in playing that game. Just don't ask for the raise, come armed with why you deserve one. An employer will probably roll their eyes if you bring up details about median wage for your profession... it is worth mentioning, but do not dwell on that much. DO Dwell on your experience, your competency, your value to the business and your contributions over and above what the job entails.

3. Prepare to leave. Yes, that means looking for a job at the same time as #2. Sometimes you can use a half assed offer from another party to get a counter offer from your current employer. I have found counter offers to be the largest single item of leverage to get a current employer to increase my pay far more than 5-10%. Most of the time though I have refused the counter and took the new job. Ultimately, finding work else ware is your quickest way to grow your pay and benefit package.

4. Determine if you would relocate. Yes. My pay has gone up significantly because I accepted offers to move out of state. Do I do that for every job? No, but I've hopped twice for good offers and they have paid off nicely. This was while I was young and unmarried which made it easier. Relocating for pay may be necessary if your local job market for your profession is stagnant.

5. Like the company? Can't relocate? No bites from other companies? Then perhaps you should ask for a promotion instead. It will likely raise your pay but bring in a whole new set of headaches especially if the pay in that new position with the same company is also not competitive... but hey, it will be more pay.

6... Here is the big if... If your skills as an engineer align with a professional sales job then that would be the alternative to aim for. You need people skills, you need to be out going and driven, but if there is a company out there looking for a professional seller with your background, you can triple or quadruple your pay in a few short years. I told you I'm a systems engineer... But I'm also a Sales Engineer. I make over $100k more than most of the IT engineers working at my customers. My base is higher than their salaries and my commission is what makes the largest difference. So don't rule out diverging from your current cubicle dweller job - with risk comes reward.

 

[WackyDan]

I'm an engineer, so I have marketable skills. There just is not a lot of work in my area, so I hold on to what I can. That is the feeling of most of my coworkers as well. People don't want to be forced to move due to a job loss.

As for vacations, I can afford them. I just don't see the value in them above other things in life. If my house and student loans were paid off, I was maxing out two 401ks and two IRAs, and had college funds for my kids I would spend after that on vacations. At this point I can't see spending $5k on something so temporary. :\

Dude... I've never spent 5k on a vacation. At worse it has topped $1k-$2k but is usually less. You deserve to get away now and then. Even the disney world vacation we are planning for 2016 is going to be less than $5k.

 

[Blieb]

Only read a little of the other comments (forgive me).

I know a mech engineer that had a hell of a time finding any job in the field recently.

If you have a good relationship with a mentor / supervisor in the company, you should talk to them.

You probably won't be able to do much without an offer from another company. You need to take action or you will be stuck in this situation.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The ONLY way you have ANY chance of getting anything near that type of raise with the company you're currently employed with is to have a viable, legitimate offer from another company. You're going to have to go find a position with another company and use that as a bargaining chip with your current. Maybe they won't match it, but maybe they will come close and everyone is happy and safe then.

Careful -- sometimes, companies will extend a counteroffer but use that against you later, especially when layoffs come and they question your "loyalty." Many companies who have an "indispensable" person will match whatever offer that person gets, discreetly have him/her train a replacement, and then jettison them.

My advice would be to just tell them how much you want and in the meantime, look for other opportunities. I gave my last employer one and ONLY one chance to come up with more money and I was gone when they tried to sucker me into staying for a big raise the following year with all sorts of strings attached. Even if they would've matched my pay I would've told them to go pound sand.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

So I'm going to sum up to you what others have said and what my take is. I'm a 44 year old Systems Engineer working for one of the tech giants.

1. You were fresh out of college. You were supposed to be a bargain due to that. I worked for a medium sized company back in 98-2006 and we hired a lot of college newbs. The job was a great job to get started with, with decent starting pay. It was also an awesome job to network with as we were contracted out to many of the tech industry giants. Many didn't last there as we hired them in at 30-32k with no experience and they felt that simply due to their degree they should be worth $100k after a year, but not a single one of them understood the level of work that $100k would take. We let one guy go after he kept insisting he was worth $100k in that position yet his billing was only about $55k per year. He refused to understand the math and continued to harp on management and myself that he was worth more. We grew sick of it, and we dismissed him as a lesson to him and all. They were young, inexperienced, and profoundly unprofessional. After five years on the job they would be making $45k-$60k depending on their utilization rates, and they would most likely be picked up by a client directly with a healthy pay raise.... So the message here is, you paid your dues and it is time to shop around.

2. Ask for the raise. ASK FOR IT. It does not hurt to ask. Before you ask, make sure you have a Linkedin.com profile and that it is 80% complete. Then make sure you are linkedin with your managers and peers. THEN you ask for your raise. Be realistic. It is exceptionally rare for a company to raise your salary to the median/mean just because of your research into the matter. Research the local job market and demand for your skills in that market. I wouldn't expect anything more than 5-10% if they bite. Now, the reason for the Linkedin profile and 80% is important. Just before and after you ask for the raise you should be editing your profile. Add new experiences, add awards, or accolades you've received. Add volunteer work, and ask your peers to review your contributions/skills on Linkedin. Your managers and peers will be getting emails from linkedin telling them you are updating your profile. That will signal to them that you are shopping around or getting ready to leave. As simple as that sounds, it works and there is very little downside to it - in other words, literally zero risk in playing that game. Just don't ask for the raise, come armed with why you deserve one. An employer will probably roll their eyes if you bring up details about median wage for your profession... it is worth mentioning, but do not dwell on that much. DO Dwell on your experience, your competency, your value to the business and your contributions over and above what the job entails.

3. Prepare to leave. Yes, that means looking for a job at the same time as #2. Sometimes you can use a half assed offer from another party to get a counter offer from your current employer. I have found counter offers to be the largest single item of leverage to get a current employer to increase my pay far more than 5-10%. Most of the time though I have refused the counter and took the new job. Ultimately, finding work else ware is your quickest way to grow your pay and benefit package.

4. Determine if you would relocate. Yes. My pay has gone up significantly because I accepted offers to move out of state. Do I do that for every job? No, but I've hopped twice for good offers and they have paid off nicely. This was while I was young and unmarried which made it easier. Relocating for pay may be necessary if your local job market for your profession is stagnant.

5. Like the company? Can't relocate? No bites from other companies? Then perhaps you should ask for a promotion instead. It will likely raise your pay but bring in a whole new set of headaches especially if the pay in that new position with the same company is also not competitive... but hey, it will be more pay.

6... Here is the big if... If your skills as an engineer align with a professional sales job then that would be the alternative to aim for. You need people skills, you need to be out going and driven, but if there is a company out there looking for a professional seller with your background, you can triple or quadruple your pay in a few short years. I told you I'm a systems engineer... But I'm also a Sales Engineer. I make over $100k more than most of the IT engineers working at my customers. My base is higher than their salaries and my commission is what makes the largest difference. So don't rule out diverging from your current cubicle dweller job - with risk comes reward.

This advice is spot on. Read and learn, folks. Pay close to attention to #2 and #3.

Another option if you don't want to do sales is go the consulting route in order to make big bucks.

 

[Fritzo]

It DOES hurt to ask for a raise sometimes. If your bosses are anything like mine, they says stuff like "if you want a raise, I need more out of you", and then start nitpicking everything you do for the next 6 months.

"You put a red tag on that white folder???? And you want a raise????"

Careful -- sometimes, companies will extend a counteroffer but use that against you later, especially when layoffs come and they question your "loyalty." Many companies who have an "indispensable" person will match whatever offer that person gets, discreetly have him/her train a replacement, and then jettison them.

This is very true. In my current job, if they had matched the offer of my new job, I would have had to put up with a lot of "we're paying you THAT much and you can't live up to our unreachable expectations????" attitude. No thanks.

 

[WackyDan]

It DOES hurt to ask for a raise sometimes. If your bosses are anything like mine, they says stuff like "if you want a raise, I need more out of you", and then start nitpicking everything you do for the next 6 months.

"You put a red tag on that white folder???? And you want a raise????"



This is very true. In my current job, if they had matched the offer of my new job, I would have had to put up with a lot of "we're paying you THAT much and you can't live up to our unreachable expectations????" attitude. No thanks.

I disagree. It may seem like it could hurt, but it gives you the answer you needed to hear/feel. If they won't come to the table, if they won't play the game or if they play their game against you then you should show them the door and go to work somewhere else. Let them absorb the cost of recruiting a new hire, training that new hire and the gamble that the new hire would be as hard working as you, as accurate as you, as professional as you, etc.

 

[Jeff7]

just fyi, engineers are a dime a dozen.

good ones are like finding a needle in a haystack though.

yeah it's true for most. but he just made it sound like he is owed something special because he's an engineer and that automatically makes him marketable.

It's not so much the profession itself that's the selling point. It's my skill, ability (and need) to learn new things and to do so easily, obsessive attention to detail, sizable knowledge base, versatility, ability to speak up when I think that both a bad decision is being made and that it is also the proper time and place to offer my input, and good writing skills that I'm thinking of. Engineering is the filter through which those capabilities happen to be expressed.
That is what makes me valuable to have around.

It DOES hurt to ask for a raise sometimes. If your bosses are anything like mine, they says stuff like "if you want a raise, I need more out of you", and then start nitpicking everything you do for the next 6 months.

"You put a red tag on that white folder???? And you want a raise????"
...

Let's hope not. It'd be like a salesman going to the trouble of throwing in some enticing discounts, but then a few months down the road, any requests for additional quotes for upgrades are met with "What, the thing you got isn't good enough? What the hell's your problem?"
Good way to poison the whole thing. But, sometimes short-term thinking wins out. Ugh.

"If you want a raise, I'll need more out of you": Maybe. Or maybe "I want a raise because I've been getting the short end of the stick for awhile now. I'm not asking for backpay, obviously. I'm asking for pay that is commensurate with the level of service that the company currently receives from me."

So I'm going to sum up to you what others have said and what my take is. I'm a 44 year old Systems Engineer working for one of the tech giants.

First off, thank you for taking the time to type this up.
I shall respond in kind with a +5 TextWall of Anguish.
(Destrekor, I hope you're seeing this, too.)

1. You were fresh out of college. You were supposed to be a bargain due to that. I worked for a medium sized company back in 98-2006 and we hired a lot of college newbs. The job was a great job to get started with, with decent starting pay. It was also an awesome job to network with as we were contracted out to many of the tech industry giants. Many didn't last there as we hired them in at 30-32k with no experience and they felt that simply due to their degree they should be worth $100k after a year, but not a single one of them understood the level of work that $100k would take.
...

I knew of the lofty engineering salary figures that were thrown around willy-nilly by the college's career-center/marketing-division. Their statements also had throbbing 8" asterisks behind them. After spending some time in the workforce, both where I'm at now and also at just something simple like retail (I also consistently exceeded expectations at that, for what it's worth), as well as my experience at college, I've got a bit of a feel for what else is out there in the job market. What I don't have is the know-how for effectively getting that information out. While I can speak up when needed, I do tend to be on the quiet side, and that's always been the case.

2. Ask for the raise. ASK FOR IT. It does not hurt to ask.

I've seen money just pop up out of nowhere. Overnight, a quote on a machine or large component purchase will suddenly shed 30% of the original price, or even 50% on annual commitments for parts. I'm sure the same game is played in anything involving substantial sums of money, so who knows what might show up.
Knowing how things work with regards to interpersonal relationships and such, that might be seen as some sign of assertiveness. "Oh wow, you had the guts to ask for this. I like guts." That would be similar to how a fair number of people regard a bone-snapping handshake to be a sign of one's basic worth as a human being.

Before you ask, make sure you have a Linkedin.com profile and that it is 80% complete. Then make sure you are linkedin with your managers and peers. THEN you ask for your raise. Be realistic.

Or I guess that should specifically say "Create a Linkedin profile."
What benefit does Linkedin offer, other than a publicly-accessible work history profile or resume? Or is that all it's intended to be?
This has been my involvement in any social media:
- I started a Facebook account back in college after incessant prodding.
I posted a total of 3 photos to it.
Eventually, I realized that the main reason I logged in was that Facebook had once again loosened up their default privacy settings, so I "deleted" the account. (Whether or not they actually delete anything is known only to their system admins and marketing arm.)
- Anandtech forums, if that counts. There were others before this one. Ahhh, Sysopt.

...
It is exceptionally rare for a company to raise your salary to the median/mean just because of your research into the matter. Research the local job market and demand for your skills in that market. I wouldn't expect anything more than 5-10% if they bite. Now, the reason for the Linkedin profile and 80% is important. Just before and after you ask for the raise you should be editing your profile. Add new experiences, add awards, or accolades you've received. Add volunteer work, and ask your peers to review your contributions/skills on Linkedin. Your managers and peers will be getting emails from linkedin telling them you are updating your profile. That will signal to them that you are shopping around or getting ready to leave. As simple as that sounds, it works and there is very little downside to it - in other words, literally zero risk in playing that game. Just don't ask for the raise, come armed with why you deserve one. An employer will probably roll their eyes if you bring up details about median wage for your profession... it is worth mentioning, but do not dwell on that much. DO Dwell on your experience, your competency, your value to the business and your contributions over and above what the job entails.

There were some changes made recently that I think were done to try to keep me happy, particularly a scheduling change. That was certainly a very nice change. It was surprising just to me to see how my overall mood improved in just the first week afterward. Constant interruptions. 5-10 minutes would rarely pass without something else needing my attention, and that's excluding emails. It was just ridiculous. Something I could do in 6-8hrs if I could just work on it and keep one coherent thought in my head for a while could take 2 weeks to finish. It was related to that earlier issue of work being funneled to people who are good at it. "Hey, you're good at this stuff so it'll only take a few minutes."

And if you've got enough deerflies and horseflies, the horse might pass out from blood loss.

So I think there was already the idea that I had become quite displeased with the state of affairs.
The mean/median charts list percentiles of 10%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 90%. My history, from academics through to work performance, has most definitely not been low or midrange, that's for sure. That's based on grades, feedback from instructors and professors, performance reviews, manager feedback, and snippets I gather from coworkers.

3. Prepare to leave. Yes, that means looking for a job at the same time as #2. Sometimes you can use a half assed offer from another party to get a counter offer from your current employer. I have found counter offers to be the largest single item of leverage to get a current employer to increase my pay far more than 5-10%. Most of the time though I have refused the counter and took the new job. Ultimately, finding work else ware is your quickest way to grow your pay and benefit package.

Which could also be a win if I end up with an offer at a place that would offer something that pays well and keeps me mentally involved.

4. Determine if you would relocate. Yes. My pay has gone up significantly because I accepted offers to move out of state. Do I do that for every job? No, but I've hopped twice for good offers and they have paid off nicely. This was while I was young and unmarried which made it easier. Relocating for pay may be necessary if your local job market for your profession is stagnant.

There are some places I don't know that I'd want to live. Arizona: 120°F? Nope. Florida: I'll format and reinstall on my PC every few years. I don't want hurricanes doing that to my house. Same applies to tornado alley. California: I don't know.
Idaho, maybe South Dakota, the New England states.....yes, I think so.

5. Like the company? Can't relocate? No bites from other companies? Then perhaps you should ask for a promotion instead. It will likely raise your pay but bring in a whole new set of headaches especially if the pay in that new position with the same company is also not competitive... but hey, it will be more pay.

The only promotions here would be into management type roles.
Part of what I dislike about where the job was lingering was too much interaction with people. I went into a profession that dealt with inanimate objects, and that's what I prefer. Yes, I know that there are some times when you have to work with others on projects. That's the key though: Work on projects. Not "help a customer with tech support" or "how do I do <simple thing> in Excel?" or "this machine's broken because someone wasn't paying attention, can you patch up this $8k component?" Pecked to death by ducks.
Too much of it was just nibbling away at my mind. I was having trouble sleeping, and what had once been a job that I quite genuinely enjoyed being at had turned into something to dread. I would work extra hours because it was mentally stimulating and engaging and interesting. That kind of work slowly tapered off. :\

I'll add that saying "I don't want to be management" might not be a good thing at some places. Too often for my liking, the role of management seems like it's viewed as the apex of human existence, and those who don't want to do it are inherently worthless and unskilled.
Yes, logistics is important. But it's sure a good thing that some people are around to be managed and do the things that need to be done.

6... Here is the big if... If your skills as an engineer align with a professional sales job then that would be the alternative to aim for. You need people skills, you need to be out going and driven, but if there is a company out there looking for a professional seller with your background, you can triple or quadruple your pay in a few short years. I told you I'm a systems engineer... But I'm also a Sales Engineer. I make over $100k more than most of the IT engineers working at my customers. My base is higher than their salaries and my commission is what makes the largest difference. So don't rule out diverging from your current cubicle dweller job - with risk comes reward.

What sucks there is that customers and specifiers who talk to me have a habit of becoming comfortable with the company. Some substantial orders have come in as a result, and the feedback from Sales is that I was the one who did it. It's an occasional source of interruptions: They'll want me to talk to a potential customer, and in the process they'll end up knowing that they're going to be dealing with a competent company that can give them reliable products and good service.
It's like Language Arts classes back in high school all over again: I did a decent job, so the teachers thought I was going to be a writer. Not at all. Those classes were just awful for me, but I was still quite proficient at it. The angel of competence routinely stalks me.

But, see #5: I don't want a job that has me constantly talking to people, much less new people all the time. I also don't want to work on commission. I don't like the idea that my motivation is not to provide someone with the most efficient or ideal solution, but that it is to provide someone with the solution that is most profitable for me. I don't want to even be given the option of that sort of influence. (Plenty of people will say that they're immune to that sort of thing. Put it this way though: Annual spending on advertising is in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Yes, people are easily influenced, whether they'll admit it or not.)

 

[WackyDan]

Or I guess that should specifically say "Create a Linkedin profile."
What benefit does Linkedin offer, other than a publicly-accessible work history profile or resume? Or is that all it's intended to be?
This has been my involvement in any social media:
- I started a Facebook account back in college after incessant prodding.
I posted a total of 3 photos to it.
Eventually, I realized that the main reason I logged in was that Facebook had once again loosened up their default privacy settings, so I "deleted" the account. (Whether or not they actually delete anything is known only to their system admins and marketing arm.)
- Anandtech forums, if that counts. There were others before this one. Ahhh, Sysopt.

I get it, you don't like social media... You might even be an introvert of sorts, but not a completely isolated one.

Linkedin isn't like facebook. It is strictly for professionals to have an online resume and network with others they have previously worked with or might work with. I get about ten views a week from strangers, typically recruiters, and sometimes competitors. I get one solicitation a week to every ten days from a recruiter or HR type for a job somewhere. A lot of them are bullshit in that they can't even match my current benefits and compensation. That said, about every couple months I get a good hit and it is another competitor trying to lure me away from my current employer. I'm heading into interviews # 5 and #6 with two different companies this next week all because of my linkedin profile.

Linkedin isn't optional. It is mandatory if you want to look for another job. As a prospective employer I'd have to wonder why the guy I'm interviewing for a job isn't professional enough or minimally outgoing at best to have a Linkedin profile that is complete.

Again, linkedin isn't social media in the same vein as Facebook. It is a tool and you should be using it. If you fail to leverage it, then you are missing out on a large part of what makes you marketable to another potential employer.

One more thing... You've been in the workforce more than a few years now. Your GPA from school doesn't matter much anymore. How you have applied yourself at your current job does.

 

[KeithTalent]

Yeah I never went on LinkedIN for the longest time, but I started on it a couple of months back and I've had a bunch of recruitment calls since then and I've also made contact with people I used to work with who have moved to other places and would be a point of contact if I were trying to change jobs.

I never really thought it would be worth anything, but it seems like a very useful tool for making contacts and finding work from those contacts.

KT

 

[Fritzo]

Yeah I never went on LinkedIN for the longest time, but I started on it a couple of months back and I've had a bunch of recruitment calls since then and I've also made contact with people I used to work with who have moved to other places and would be a point of contact if I were trying to change jobs.

I never really thought it would be worth anything, but it seems like a very useful tool for making contacts and finding work from those contacts.

KT

My experience with LinkedIn is "salesmen trying to sell stuff to other salesmen."

 

[purbeast0]

It's not so much the profession itself that's the selling point. It's my skill, ability (and need) to learn new things and to do so easily, obsessive attention to detail, sizable knowledge base, versatility, ability to speak up when I think that both a bad decision is being made and that it is also the proper time and place to offer my input, and good writing skills that I'm thinking of. Engineering is the filter through which those capabilities happen to be expressed.
That is what makes me valuable to have around.

simple fact of the matter is, if you are as valuable as you think you are, then you would be making more money.

i'm not saying you AREN'T valuable, but it isn't yet proven. and sticking around getting underpaid isn't helping your value out at all. if you are as valuable as you think you are, then go find a job that values you more.

 

[purbeast0]

I get it, you don't like social media... You might even be an introvert of sorts, but not a completely isolated one.

Linkedin isn't like facebook. It is strictly for professionals to have an online resume and network with others they have previously worked with or might work with. I get about ten views a week from strangers, typically recruiters, and sometimes competitors. I get one solicitation a week to every ten days from a recruiter or HR type for a job somewhere. A lot of them are bullshit in that they can't even match my current benefits and compensation. That said, about every couple months I get a good hit and it is another competitor trying to lure me away from my current employer. I'm heading into interviews # 5 and #6 with two different companies this next week all because of my linkedin profile.

Linkedin isn't optional. It is mandatory if you want to look for another job. As a prospective employer I'd have to wonder why the guy I'm interviewing for a job isn't professional enough or minimally outgoing at best to have a Linkedin profile that is complete.

Again, linkedin isn't social media in the same vein as Facebook. It is a tool and you should be using it. If you fail to leverage it, then you are missing out on a large part of what makes you marketable to another potential employer.

One more thing... You've been in the workforce more than a few years now. Your GPA from school doesn't matter much anymore. How you have applied yourself at your current job does.

lol please let us know what company you work for, so that i know never to apply for a job there.

 

[WackyDan]

lol please let us know what company you work for, so that i know never to apply for a job there.

Please. Two of the interviewers I spoke with the week before christmas noted that I had visited their linkedin profiles as they had mine.

A few years back during another interview process I used Linkedin to stalk that company's employees to assess the average employee age and whether the bulk of their field sales were fresh out of college. When they low balled me on the offer and I balked they said " we start all new employees at this base salary"... To which I replied I wasn't a fresh college grad, and all the reasons why they wanted/pursued me as an employee. The offer couldn't be changed and I told them again, no thanks.

If you don't think Linkedin is a valuable tool in job seeking and providing background on the person and company you are interviewing with then you are delusional or have your head stuck in the 90's.

If you think HR types and hiring managers aren't dinging you for not having a professional online presence on Linkedin, you are also delusional.

 

[BoberFett]

LOL, LinkedIn. That's funny.