Yet another post regarding older vs newer CPUs

[kwalkingcraze]

WUT?

Are you referring to ThreadRipper?

Or did I miss a sudden price hike?

Something similar. But there will be a $2,000 AMD processor by 2020 for sure. In general, new processors are rising, not falling. I have to quit soon.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I think that you're mistaken. Ryzen prices are actually LOWER than what we had before, for the overall performance.

I think that what you're lamenting, is the price floor on CPUs moving upwards, because of the death of the dual-core on the desktop.

Edit: I mean, you don't seem to be lamenting that you can't get $19 single-core CPUs anymore, and that a $39 G3930 2C/2T or a $60 G4560 2C/4T is too darn expensive, do you?

I mean, get a part-time job at McD's, flip burgers for 4-5 hours at minimum wage, and you could afford one of those CPUs.

CPUs are priced according to their usefulness. CPUs don't get super-cheap, unless they're useless (*).

(*) For their target customers. Which is why you can get $80 8C/16T used server CPUs on the secondary market.

 

[kwalkingcraze]

I think that you're mistaken. Ryzen prices are actually LOWER than what we had before, for the overall performance.

Prices have been RISING based on my experience, and I get more frustrated each year as a matter of fact. I've been purchasing less and less new stuff now since late-2015. Here are some of my valid reasons why:

1. When we had 2008 recession, we used to have 30% fewer sales, and it was less busy at Micro Center. Today's rising demand for CPUs and new gaming rig for Gen. Z people command higher prices now, including leftover LGA1150. I no longer can get $18 after rebate anymore with new ECS LGA1150 board vs. ECS LGA1155 before in 2014.

2. We used to have TigerDirect that was once a competitor with Newegg. They used to ship out FREE PC case, FREE 80+ bronze power supply, FREE 8GB DDR3 RAM after cancelling McAfee, FREE Pentium G3258 CPU with board purchase, and etc, because we were still adjusting from the great recession and retailers were overstocked. None of these deals were offered by Newegg. Newegg requires California sales tax, which I am now more reluctant to buy new stuff.

3. Haswell is way more affordable than Skylake and Kaby Lake. It was a great run while it lasted. Buy board now, buy CPU later at lower price.

4. Fry's used to sell Celeron G1850 for $19 and Pentium G3258 for $35 after promo code. Today, I don't see this anymore with Celeron G3900 and G3930. Does not exist.

5. The cost of DDR4 RAMs is my biggest issue here, and I prefer DDR3 now. Manufacturers refuse to produce 8GB DDR4 now, and fewer quantities are made than 16GB. So I see 8GB for $65 vs. 16GB for $95 with more deals. Unacceptable... 8GB DDR3 bottomed at $20. It's now floating at $40, still $25 cheaper than 8GB DDR4.

 

[VirtualLarry]

5. The cost of DDR4 RAMs is my biggest issue here, and I prefer DDR3 now. Manufacturers refuse to produce 8GB DDR4 now, and fewer quantities are made than 16GB. So I see 8GB for $65 vs. 16GB for $100 with more deals. Unacceptable... 8GB DDR3 bottomed at $20. It's now floating at $40, still $25 cheaper than 8GB DDR4.

That affects platform cost, but you were specifically talking about CPU costs rising.

I don't see that.

With Kaby Lake, now you can get a $64 (MSRP, have purchased for less) G4560 CPU, that does 99% of what you needed a prior-gen $119 (MSRP) i3 CPU to do.

Like I said, costs are actually coming DOWN, at least for new product.

 

[kwalkingcraze]

With Kaby Lake, now you can get a $64 (MSRP, have purchased for less) G4560 CPU, that does 99% of what you needed a prior-gen $119 (MSRP) i3 CPU to do.

I've bought Pentium G3470 Haswell for $29. Nice try. The successor G4560 model is now 2.5 times more expensive. Doesn't matter if the new one has more cores, a Pentium is a Pentium. New CPU prices are rising, and memory RAMs are rising too. Enough said.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Doesn't matter if the new one has more cores, a Pentium is a Pentium.

I go by actual performance of a CPU, not branding. And the G4560 performs like an i3.

 

[Yongsta]

I personally ran an OC'd Q6600 for over 5 years before upgrading to my current platform. They were great processors and I'm well aware of what they're capable of. That said, you're either not very sensitive to the overall responsiveness of a system or Ryzen isn't very good if you can't tell the difference or if you're actually losing some performance metrics.

I'm very sensitive to system responsiveness. But in desktop usage, the Q6600 / SSD combo felt just as responsive to my Ryzen5 / SSD combo (I also have a 6700K Skylake system which is now my secondary rig, the responsiveness doesn't feel that different). I'm getting a Samsung 960 PRO M.2 NVME soon so that might change a bit.

 

[ibex333]

Yes, I know I kinda resurrected an old thread, but I just want to thank the guy who recommended I get a Xeon 5450. I had to ebay one from China, since they are now very few from US sellers, and more expensive in US, but the Chinese seller got it to me in about a week. Cost me only $22 bucks shipped...


The CPU was already modded and cut out in the right places so I didn't have to do anything at all. Slapped it right in there and the system booted with no problems. I didn't have to do a microcode flash. CPU-Z recognizes it properly. Performance is peculiar...

Multi threaded, CPU-Z bench shows it faster at stock 3.0GHz than Intel Pentium G4560, which is pretty damn good if you ask me. I didnt even do 4.0GHz yet because I want to give it a few days before I go there.

But single thread performance is kinda crappy. Only faster than a laptop grade Intel Core i5-6200U which is only about same as a C2D 8400 which I already had with my e6300 Conroe @ 3.2 GHz.

Does such single thread performance sound about right to you for this Xeon?

How important is this single thread performance for newer games? Should I mostly be concerned with quad thread performance or single thread is very relevant?

 

[ibex333]

Well, I said screw it... I know it's not good to do right away, but I don't care. I overclocked to 3.8GHz, (without turbo in BIOS) and will probably try to push to 4.0GHz later. This 800MHz bump literally made a difference between Company of Heroes 2 being unplayable to being playable at medium settings. Benchmark says min 23fps, avg 30 fps and max 50 fps. It tends to underestimate as I get a steady 30+ fps most of the time except for victory strikes in the end... Now the CPU-Z says I'm faster than i5-2500k in multi thread, and faster than i5-2400 in single thread.


EDIT: I played a skirmish battle with an AI against 2 other AIs and I got an average of 34-38fps, max of around 71fps, and a drop into teens during a victory strike in the end.

 

[ibex333]

Another pleasant bonus... Diablo 3 was completely unplayable dipping into low teens and single digits with 3 other players in game at stock speed. Now I never drop below low 20's which is rare. Most of the time I am cruising at 30-34fps, jumping into 70's when no one is around me. Diablo 3 is a weird game. It is listed to have low requirements and supposed to run on very old CPUs but instead, it lags on very new CPUs according to other players in game. I spoke to some people I played with and they have lag and fps drops with their Skylakes, Haswells and Kaby Lakes. Not all off course. Some report butter smooth 100+ fps, so go figure...

I already tried pushing to 4.0 GHz but Windows will not boot. At 3.9GHz, Windows boots but computer locks up randomly. I settled at 3.85GHz until I can figure out how to push higher.

Now, it is time to try some 2015-2017 games... ; )

EDIT: Increasing voltage past 1.35v doesn't seem to help overclock higher. If I go to 3.9 or above, system freezes and restarts. I bumped a bit to 3.7GHz. Here, CPU-Z says I'm faster than a stock i7-2600K, and I'm at 75 C under load, so if I can never go any higher, I can definitely live with this result. In fact, I am happy as a pig in poop. If only I knew 5 years ago that I could use a Xeon...

 

[whm1974]

How old are we talking about? I used to upgrade to another system every three to four years. My rig is four years old now and I have no plans on replacing it. My Haswell i5-4670 is likely to be quite usable for a few more years yet at least.

 

[Thunder 57]

How old are we talking about? I used to upgrade to another system every three to four years. My rig is four years old now and I have no plans on replacing it. My Haswell i5-4670 is likely to be quite usable for a few more years yet at least.

Wow, I had to do the math there. I didn't think Haswell was four years old. I did my last build in early 2013 and had to go with Ivy Bridge. I used to upgrade much more often. My last few CPU's have been an Athlon 64 X2 5000+, Phenom II 940, and the Ivy 3570k. I had my Phenom for about four years and here I am with the 3570k four years later and don't feel any reason to upgrade. That said, I do have an itch and might just go for a Ryzen 1600 sooner than later.

 

[whm1974]

Wow, I had to do the math there. I didn't think Haswell was four years old. I did my last build in early 2013 and had to go with Ivy Bridge. I used to upgrade much more often. My last few CPU's have been an Athlon 64 X2 5000+, Phenom II 940, and the Ivy 3570k. I had my Phenom for about four years and here I am with the 3570k four years later and don't feel any reason to upgrade. That said, I do have an itch and might just go for a Ryzen 1600 sooner than later.

Yeah time sure does fly doesn't it? If you told me I would be keeping a build for six to seven years I would had laughed at you. The only reason I kept my last build for seven years was due to me waiting on getting disability. It was a Pentium D 930 w/2 GB of memory...

 

[scannall]

I'm running a 7 year old CPU. Xeon 5660, overclocked to 4.2 Ghz. It's getting retired later this year, after we move. But it's been a beast for a long time.

 

[ibex333]

I'm running a 7 year old CPU. Xeon 5660, overclocked to 4.2 Ghz. It's getting retired later this year, after we move. But it's been a beast for a long time.

Contact me when you'll be getting rid of that CPU, mobo and RAM. Maybe I'll buy it... Unless I move up by then.

 

[scannall]

Contact me when you'll be getting rid of that CPU, mobo and RAM. Maybe I'll buy it... Unless I move up by then.

I'll keep you in mind. If one of the kids doesn't sneak off with it. ;-)

 

[kwalkingcraze]

In light of this, I went back to my Pentium e6300@3.2 GHz machine "mostly" sitting in the closet for last 6 years.

Ouch, that's a little too much going backwards. Try Core i3-2100, you can now get one used for $15 shipped, and the Sandy Bridges are depreciating harshly now. By sticking with Pentium E6300, you lose UEFI OS, secure-boot, USB 3.0, SATA III, and AHCI (most LGA775 boards don't have AHCI). Core i3-2100 will be going further down in price to $3 shipped by 2022, and it will be the new minimum standard for the next 20 years beyond Windows 20.

 

[VirtualLarry]

most LGA775 boards don't have AHCI

Depends.

If they are using a full-ATX 775 board with an Intel chipset (P35 or P45), then they probably have an ICH9R or ICH10R southbridge, which does support AHCI natively.

If they have a micro-ATX board with a G-series Intel chipset (G31, G35, G41, G45), then they may be sporting an Intel ICH7 southbridge, which does not support AHCI natively (but does support a real IDE port).

And of course, if they had an NVidia chipset and southbridge, those did not support AHCI either, although some of them supported RAID mode, which might have supported NCQ (the biggest benefit of using AHCI mode), given the proper chipset and driver.

 

[SPBHM]

But single thread performance is kinda crappy. Only faster than a laptop grade Intel Core i5-6200U which is only about same as a C2D 8400 which I already had with my e6300 Conroe @ 3.2 GHz.

Does such single thread performance sound about right to you for this Xeon?

same performance as e8400 for ST is exactly right, both have the same specs for ST, the point of getting the 771 Xeon is because it's a cheap "q9650" alternative, and in some cases it seem to overclock better, realistically 3.2GHz e6300 should be a little behind the e8400 for ST, specially in gaming and other things sensitive to the 1/3 cache size, I needed around 3.6GHz to match an e8400 with my E5xxx (which is the same IPC as the e6300 Pentium, and faster than the C2D E6300), but if your test is not affected much by the l2 size than yes it's very close.
for current games you need both, high ST performance and more cores, a Quad Core 771/775 CPU will be a lot less limited than a dual core one.

Ouch, that's a little too much going backwards. Try Core i3-2100, you can now get one used for $15 shipped, and the Sandy Bridges are depreciating harshly now. By sticking with Pentium E6300, you lose UEFI OS, secure-boot, USB 3.0, SATA III, and AHCI (most LGA775 boards don't have AHCI). Core i3-2100 will be going further down in price to $3 shipped by 2022, and it will be the new minimum standard for the next 20 years beyond Windows 20.

do you really notice a difference because of EFI and secure boot? I don't. sata III is also not critical if you are not making large copies all the time, SSD feels good with the sata II limit for normal use anyway, only boards that didn't have AHCI were the cheap ones with the ICH7 southbridge (like the g31 and g41 ones), also if you look at some other posts he is now running a CPU that will more often than not beat the i3 2100.

 

[kwalkingcraze]

do you really notice a difference because of EFI and secure boot? I don't. sata III is also not critical if you are not making large copies all the time, SSD feels good with the sata II limit for normal use anyway, only boards that didn't have AHCI were the cheap ones with the ICH7 southbridge (like the g31 and g41 ones), also if you look at some other posts he is now running a CPU that will more often than not beat the i3 2100.

I'm just saying, if he sells all the old LGA775 parts, he can buy all the used LGA1155 parts with i3-2100 at the same cost he has right now. There is such thing as a free upgrade at little or no cost.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I'm just saying, if he sells all the old LGA775 parts, he can buy all the used LGA1155 parts with i3-2100 at the same cost he has right now. There is such thing as a free upgrade at little or no cost.

I thought that decent, working, LGA 1155 mobos were kind of scarce. No?

And, the only reason that an upgrade might be free, is if both platforms have next to no value (or the same value, in which case, what's the point in swapping?)

I mean, go for it if you want, but as noted, the i3-2100 may be slightly lower in MT performance than a fast overclocked Core2Quad / Xeon-equivalent. But then again, some things are rather limited by FSB and no AVX capability.

 

[SPBHM]

also, it looks like the X5450 is a good bit cheaper than the E5450, I don't think it makes any difference when running in a 775 board (I think E had multi socket support and X single? or was the TDP different?)

I mean, go for it if you want, but as noted, the i3-2100 may be slightly lower in MT performance than a fast overclocked Core2Quad / Xeon-equivalent. But then again, some things are rather limited by FSB and no AVX capability.

at least on CB11.5 my i3 2100 (3.1GHz) and E5420 (2.5GHz) got exactly the same score, but yes, it can vary a bit I don't think CB11.5 is to affected by slow memory/fsb, still if you are running it at 3.8GHz the Xeon is going to potentially be a lot faster for some things,

 

[ibex333]

also, it looks like the X5450 is a good bit cheaper than the E5450, I don't think it makes any difference when running in a 775 board (I think E had multi socket support and X single? or was the TDP different?)



at least on CB11.5 my i3 2100 (3.1GHz) and E5420 (2.5GHz) got exactly the same score, but yes, it can vary a bit I don't think CB11.5 is to affected by slow memory/fsb, still if you are running it at 3.8GHz the Xeon is going to potentially be a lot faster for some things,

Exactly. As of now, it definitely looks like performance is pretty good. I cant see how I would benefit by moving to an i3 in terms of raw gaming performance. According to benchmarks, I am faster than a stock i3-2100. I do have AHCI, but I don't have secure boot, EFI, etc. I don't see what the advantage of these is, since from cold start, computer boots in like 10-15 seconds and is immediately ready to go. I am using an SSD.

Just the fact that I can now comfortably play Company of Heroes 2 vs not being able to play it at all, is a pretty big deal IMHO. On my overclocked e6300 I could only push into the teens and twenties regardless of resolution. Now I am well over 30's and 40's and that's only because I am GPU limited I think.

 

[whm1974]

So just how old are you guys willing to go? I ran into a problem back when Flash was still alive before HTML5 took over and my dad's old system couldn't play current(at the time) versions of Flash so He couldn't watch movies or play Facebook games on Linux. I end up building him a new system back in 2014 due to this. The old CPU he didn't have the instruction(s) Flash needed.

Don't remember the CPU but I think was at or before Socket 775. Probably before 775.

 

[kwalkingcraze]

I thought that decent, working, LGA 1155 mobos were kind of scarce. No?

Not really. They just started to show up at recycling centers, both in China and here in US.