yet another multivitamin thread and frustrated with previous threads

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msi1337

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Apr 16, 2003
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looking for some advice on multivitamins.. specifically if you know positives or negatives on Nutrilite Double X?

I am a little frustrated with H&F tonight.. I read through every thread on supplement and vitamin use, and 99% of the people responded that they thought that Centrum was a quality vitamin. Most of the research I have read on Centrum is that it is complete crap that is at most 10% absorbed by the body. Full of synthesized vitamins that dont break down, or aren't easily absorbed.

It's getting to the point where I dont even bother reading posts in this forum unless they are from Socially Challenged, brikis98, KoolDrew, or a select few others.

I realize that it is up to the individual to get as many nutrients through their diet as possible, but I am curious to hear from people who have researched this to see what there opinions are.
 

brikis98

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Jul 5, 2005
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My stance on this topic has actually been gradually shifting in recent times.

Since the modern diet tends to lack a lot of the important vitamins/minerals that our bodies need, I used to think that a multivitamin could act as a nice "insurance policy" to fill in the gaps. The processing that much of our food goes through today tends to destroy its nutritional value. Because of this, many of our foods - such as bread, cereal, pasta, etc - have to be fortified (sometimes by law) with vitamins to try to put back the nutritional value we destroyed. Moreover, even our whole foods these days may be as much as 40% less nutritious than 50 years ago. While I always tried to ensure my diet provided all of my vitamins/minerals, I liked the idea of having a multivitamin there to back me up. Unfortunately, as discussed in this article, more and more research seems to be indicating that multivitamins might not be effective at all.

But even if they weren't always effective, I thought that taking one multivitamin per day was unlikely to do any harm. This too may be incorrect, as discussed in this article. Not only have a number of studies shown multivitamins to have no benefit, in some cases, they have been found to be harmful. Excessive intake of various vitamins - which would be hard to achieve with food alone, but possible with vitamin pills containing several hundred percent of RDA - has been linked to various diseases, including cancer. Moreover, an article on cnn.com discusses a ConsumerLab's report that "found that more than half of the 21 multis it tested had too much (or too little) of certain vitamins -- or had been contaminated with dangerous substances such as lead." It seems like the popular brands that most people (including myself) use are ok, but still a bit disconcerting.

However, what really made me reconsider multivitamins was Michael Pollan's book In Defense of Food (his New York Times article Unhappy Meals is a shorter version of the arguments he makes in his book). Pollan discusses that nutritionists/scientists still have a very poor understanding of what it takes to make a healthy human diet. Originally, scientists only recognized carbs, fat and protein as relevant to sustaining human health. When diseases like scurvy and beriberi popped up, they recognized the importance of vitamins. Then they became aware of distinctions between different types of carbs (high GI, low GI), proteins (different amino acids), and fats (omega 3, omega 6, saturated, unsaturated, etc). Now we also talk about fiber, polyphenlos, carotenes and who knows what else. Scientists keep trying to break food down into its parts and to come up with a formula - an RDA - of what we need to be healthy, but I think it's pretty clear that we are failing badly. Humans have managed to live healthy lives for thousands of years on a huge variety of diets - from high fat to low fat, high carb to low carb, exclusively vegetarian to exclusively animal product, and so on. It seems that the one diet that invariably makes us unhealthy is the western diet, despite our obsession with macronutrients, vitamins, RDA's, supplements and so on.

The point is that I'm no longer taking a multivitamin not because I don't think they work or are dangerous, but because I don't think scientists really know what the human body needs to be healthy. Sure, macronutrients, vitamins, fiber, etc are all probably part of it. But who knows what is missing? We are constantly identifying one substance after another in food that turns out to be incredibly important for our health and then generating pills and fortifying our food products with it. So why waste time waiting for these discoveries? Stop eating processed food and you don't have to worry about what your diet is "missing". Eat a varied diet of real, whole food, and you're just about guaranteed to get enough of every substance you need.
 

msi1337

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Apr 16, 2003
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thanks for the reply. Some very good reading in there, and after reading his article, I will definetly read Michael Pollan's book.

whats the best place to get organic vegetables and real food? Farmers market?
 

Megatomic

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Nov 9, 2000
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Upper tier grocery stores is your best bet. Even local farmers who sell at farmer's markets use pesticides. In Fort Worth there is a store called Central Market and it catered to people who are willing to pay the price for organically grown, minimally processed foods.
 

interchange

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Oct 10, 1999
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Studies have struggled to prove tangible benefit from vitamin supplementation. One possible exception is Vitamin D, where there is increasing link to deficit and numerous disease processes. This may be due to the simple fact that people don't spend enough time in the sun (of course sun exposures carries other risks).
 

msi1337

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Apr 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: interchange
Studies have struggled to prove tangible benefit from vitamin supplementation. One possible exception is Vitamin D, where there is increasing link to deficit and numerous disease processes. This may be due to the simple fact that people don't spend enough time in the sun (of course sun exposures carries other risks).

why can't you answer my medical question? :p

I have been reading quite a bit today and I am kind of appauled at the sh!t I have been eating for the last 30 years! I am seriously considering going "organic". I cannot believe I never asked these questions before.
 

brikis98

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Jul 5, 2005
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Originally posted by: msi1337
thanks for the reply. Some very good reading in there, and after reading his article, I will definetly read Michael Pollan's book.

whats the best place to get organic vegetables and real food? Farmers market?

I also highly recommend Pollan's other (and more famous) book, The Ominovore's Dilemma. There he discusses the differences between foods that come from industrial farms, industrial/organic farms and sustainable/local farms. Going organic certainly has its benefits (pesticides, antibiotics, hormones), but it's still far from ideal in terms of your own health and the health of the environment. Buying local - from farmers markets and as part of CSA's (community supported agriculture or farm shares) - is generally a better approach, as long as you can setup a relationship with the actual farmer and find out how he/she grows the food. Unfortunately, it's not practical for everyone, so some kind of compromise solution is usually best. Still, by spending your money on local & organic food, you're effectively "voting" and hopefully helping to shift the economy towards these better agricultural practices. The number of CSA's and farmers markets that have become available in recent years is a good sign that this sort of voting w/ your dollars is having some beneficial effects.
 

syzygy

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Feb 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: brikis98It seems that the one diet that invariably makes us unhealthy is
the western diet, despite our obsession with macronutrients, vitamins, RDA's, supplements and so on.

i don't think you help your arguement with that statement. you basically don't define what a western diet
is. Worse still is that you toss in the work scientists have done with supplements and throw everything
over the side.

Is this western diet predominantly American fast food ? That would explain why their has been such an
explosive growth in health consciousness all over the world. You could probably track the increase in
awareness with the spread of fast food, american and otherwise. Scientists have examined cultural trends,
nature, and niche habits from around the earth in a desperate search to bottle whatever micronutrient
can help an increasingly overstuffed and unhealthy population.

the science has to be examined independently, usually nutrient by nutrient. unfortunately there is so much
specialized information with inconclusive and continually developing results that we lack the time, patience,
and expertise to wisely judge all that we read.


 

brikis98

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Jul 5, 2005
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Originally posted by: syzygy
you basically don't define what a western diet is.
You are correct. The definition I use is largely the same one Pollan uses in his book In Defense of Food (and the New York Times article Unhappy Meals), which I did not wish to repeat in this thread. Since I linked both the book and the article in my original reply, I had hoped people would take a look at them to understand the reference. The very basic definition is:

Lots of meat and processed foods, lots of added fat and sugar, lots of everything ? except fruits, vegetables and whole grains.

Originally posted by: syzygy
Worse still is that you toss in the work scientists have done with supplements and throw everything over the side.
Huh?

Originally posted by: syzygy
You could probably track the increase in awareness with the spread of fast food, american and otherwise. Scientists have examined cultural trends, nature, and niche habits from around the earth in a desperate search to bottle whatever micronutrient can help an increasingly overstuffed and unhealthy population.
Pollan's book discusses how most of the attempts by scientists have been enormous failures because of this deconstructionist approach. We keep looking for a single macronutrient, a single vitamin, or a "magic bullet" that will make all our problems go away. But really, we don't seem to focus on "food" as a whole. For example, we know that vegetables are healthy. Maybe it's the vitamins them that make them healthy or maybe it's something else: perhaps a nutrient we don't recognize as important, perhaps the particular combination of vitamins + macronutrients, perhaps something else entirely. The wonderful thing is that for the average person, it doesn't matter: eat the damn veggie and it'll make you healthier. The same goes for virtually all real (whole) foods. The only ones we know to be unhealthy, really, are those that have been introduced as part of the western diet. Namely, all the highly processed "food products" we see in stores today. We don't know exactly why they are unhealthy, but again, it's not important for the average person to know: just don't eat them! Hence Pollan's argument is to let the scientists continue to worry about the science - maybe some day they'll actually have it figured out - and in the meantime, we should just "Eat [real] food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

 

Titan

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Oct 15, 1999
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I use New Chapter Every Man's Once Daily. I've been using it on and off for different cycles. I think it helps being a whole food multi. I have noticed healthier hair and nails growing faster while taking it.
 

FeuerFrei

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Mar 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: Megatomic
Upper tier grocery stores is your best bet. Even local farmers who sell at farmer's markets use pesticides. In Fort Worth there is a store called Central Market and it catered to people who are willing to pay the price for organically grown, minimally processed foods.

Ouch. Why pay extra for less processing/care? Can't the savings be passed on to the customer?
Oh wait. I guess "organic" techniques mean lower yield/acre so supply is cut and farmers have less to sell. Hence a higher price and less for the consumer's dollar.
 

GenHoth

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Jul 5, 2007
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Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
Originally posted by: Megatomic
Upper tier grocery stores is your best bet. Even local farmers who sell at farmer's markets use pesticides. In Fort Worth there is a store called Central Market and it catered to people who are willing to pay the price for organically grown, minimally processed foods.

Ouch. Why pay extra for less processing/care? Can't the savings be passed on to the customer?
Oh wait. I guess "organic" techniques mean lower yield/acre so supply is cut and farmers have less to sell. Hence a higher price and less for the consumer's dollar.

I agree with everything except for the whole organics bit. If you want to buy regular fruit and veggies those are ok too.
 

InflatableBuddha

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Jul 5, 2007
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A few months ago, I saw a news segment on CBC Marketplace about pesticides in food. They did a small study of different ways of washing produce after contaminating it with E.Coli, Salmonella, etc.

They tried a special ozonation cleaning machine, some type of soap and plain tap water. Washing and rubbing the produce for a few seconds under warm tap water removed about 98% of the bacteria and pesticides - it was the most effective method.

I think regular produce is fine as long as you wash it. I try to buy local stuff (all items in my store are marked for their place of origin), but the reality is, even imported produce is often as cheap. If I bought only local and organic, it would triple my food budget, and add a lot of expense. It would be difficult to afford.

To address the diet question, I haven't read "In Defense of Food", but I have read enough to know that the Western Diet is the worst type of diet. Any other type (Asian, Mediterranean, Latin/South American, etc.) is healthier.

Personally, I try to keep it simple. Lots of whole grains and fibre, lots of vegetable, high protein, little red meat, lower sodium, regular caffeine, and moderate alcohol. Lots of water and almost no fast food (last ate a fast food burger about 3 years ago). I am consuming some processed vegetarian foods (veggie ground, tofu, etc.), so that may or may not be a good thing, but I need to get the protein from somewhere.

Regarding vitamins, I'm not sure about Nutrilite Double X. We have different standards for supplements in Canada than the FDA, but I do know that Health Canada is pretty good at weeding out contaminated supplements.

I take a store-brand multivitamin. It has higher mineral levels than name brands like Centrum, and costs 50% less. After reading some articles, I'm undecided if this may be harmful, but I certainly don't exceed the recommended dosage. I don't take any specific vitamin supplements like E, C, or B6, etc. as I don't think those are really necessary.
 
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