Yes, We Should Let Motorcycles Ride Between Cars

[poofyhairguy]

It's better when the motorcyclist throws the beverage in the cagers face and gets to cheat traffic.

From a driver standpoint is solved by having a CCW (which even California allows).

 

[JulesMaximus]

How terrible are they?

They fucked his mom once or twice. Pretty sure she had a bastard child as a result.

 

[slayer202]

Studying one congested stretch of road, the researchers found replacing 10 percent of cars with motorcycles would cut time stuck in traffic by 63 percent—for everyone. Carbon emissions drop by 6 percent, due largely to smoother traffic flow. The study didn’t specifically consider lane splitting, but noted that “when traffic comes to a complete standstill, it can be assumed that all motorcycles drive between two lanes.”

On top of all that, there are safety advantages to lane splitting. Hard to believe—it’s so easy for a driver to hit someone riding by!—but riding between cars rather than in front of and behind them seems to reduce the risk of a deadly collision, specifically from being rear ended.

“Seemingly counter-intuitive, traffic filtering is actually a viable safety technique,” motorcycle safety consultant Steve Guderian wrote in an August 2011 study. It “removes the motorcycle and rider from the danger spot behind a stopped car, and places the motorcycle into the more secure safety envelope that is created between two larger vehicles.” Guderian found that California had significantly fewer motorcyclist fatalities from rear end collisions than other states.

I really don't care much about this issue at all, but you have to be pretty dumb to read either of these two points and think they are accurate. The first one especially. Trying to say that lane splitting will ease congestion and emissions because if you replaced 10% of cars with motorcycles congestion and emissions would be reduced. Derp

Second portion isn't much better

 

[CZroe]

lol, this is hilarious "as long as traffic is moving at 50 mph or less and the motorcyclist doesn’t outrun traffic by more than 15 mph."

so they basically can go 65 mph down the middle of the highway with cars going 50 mph?

50 mph is fast. this should only apply when traffic is at a near standstill (even then i don't support this). hell, a lot of highways in PA are only 55 mph. seems like tons of accidents waiting to happen imo.

The relative speed is what matters. It is 15MPH relative. There is plenty of time to see what cars ahead are doing because, until there is a collision, it is almost the same as them being stopped and you moving at 15MPH. Road hazards move at you faster but you actually have a *better* view of them from between cars (no vehicle blocking your view). Also, CA has a state maximum speed limit of 55MPH though there are a few places where it goes higher anyway.

 

[CZroe]

I really don't care much about this issue at all, but you have to be pretty dumb to read either of these two points and think they are accurate. The first one especially. Trying to say that lane splitting will ease congestion and emissions because if you replaced 10% of cars with motorcycles congestion and emissions would be reduced. Derp

Second portion isn't much better

No. Motorcycles produce far more CO2 per gallon of fuel burned. The increased MPG does not even begin to cancel it out, especially considering the reduced ability to carpool.

 

[positivedoppler]

No. Motorcycles produce far more CO2 per gallon of fuel burned. The increased MPG does not even begin to cancel it out, especially considering the reduced ability to carpool.

If I stay on high gear I can get 50mpg on my 600cc sports bike. If I can ride like a maniac it probably goes down to 27mpg. Mostly It's around 45mpg between typical fill up.

 

[werepossum]

I wouldn't have an issue with it if motorcyclists were actually responsible about it... but it feels like 9 times out of 10 that I see lane splitting happening, the motorcyclists is roaring down the split lane at like 100 mph between stand-still traffic, just begging to become a splat on the road if someone ahead of them decides to change lanes without, not only checking their blindspot, but also looking far down the road to see if there's a random motorcycle riding down the lines.

Agreed, motorcyclists tend to be idiots. I used to work with a guy who always shook his head at me and tell me he too used to ride, but after his "bad wreck" gave it up because people don't respect motorcycles. I finally asked him exactly what happened. Seems everyone pulled over to let a fire truck pass, and without looking he immediately pulled out to pass everyone else while they were still pulled over. Right behind the fire truck was the fire chief's pickup, doing 80, which struck his bike just inches in front of his right foot. So he was being an asshole AND an idiot, and yet the problem in his mind was everyone else.

I don't have a problem with lane splitting IF traffic is stopped, but it never STAYS stopped. And if someone opens a car door to let in some air and it makes you turn somersaults, please don't complain about everyone else.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Agreed, motorcyclists tend to be idiots. I used to work with a guy who always shook his head at me and tell me he too used to ride, but after his "bad wreck" gave it up because people don't respect motorcycles. I finally asked him exactly what happened. Seems everyone pulled over to let a fire truck pass, and without looking he immediately pulled out to pass everyone else while they were still pulled over. Right behind the fire truck was the fire chief's pickup, doing 80, which struck his bike just inches in front of his right foot. So he was being an asshole AND an idiot, and yet the problem in his mind was everyone else.

I don't have a problem with lane splitting IF traffic is stopped, but it never STAYS stopped. And if someone opens a car door to let in some air and it makes you turn somersaults, please don't complain about everyone else.

You know, most cars come equipped with these things called windows and they actually can be opened to let air in.

Christ, why anyone would open a car door on the freeway is beyond me but if you did you damned well better know what is coming up behind you because if you cause an accident from opening a door it's entirely your fault.

 

[Charmonium]

The relative speed is what matters. It is 15MPH relative. There is plenty of time to see what cars ahead are doing because, until there is a collision, it is almost the same as them being stopped and you moving at 15MPH. Road hazards move at you faster but you actually have a *better* view of them from between cars (no vehicle blocking your view). Also, CA has a state maximum speed limit of 55MPH though there are a few places where it goes higher anyway.

Something I just realized - how are you going to determine relative speed? I've been driving for decades and I'd be hard pressed to tell you my speed w/o looking at the dashboard. Even knowing which gear I'm in and listening to the engine, I'd still have a hard time.

So I have no idea what my relative speed is when passing traffic that's moving. And is a cop really going to clock both you and the traffic around you to determine if you're exceeding a 15mph differential. Of course not. So the provision is essentially unenforceable.

 

[werepossum]

I really don't care much about this issue at all, but you have to be pretty dumb to read either of these two points and think they are accurate. The first one especially. Trying to say that lane splitting will ease congestion and emissions because if you replaced 10% of cars with motorcycles congestion and emissions would be reduced. Derp

Second portion isn't much better

Second portion is spot-on; being ass end Charlie is a very dangerous position due to all the people texting or just being distracted. Doesn't have to be lane splitting though - if you leave enough space in front of you, you can easily dart in between cars if someone is coming up behind you.

If I stay on high gear I can get 50mpg on my 600cc sports bike. If I can ride like a maniac it probably goes down to 27mpg. Mostly It's around 45mpg between typical fill up.

Yeah, I too call shens. My Ninja gets 50 mpg. No way do I believe it puts out twice the CO2 (especially given that its compression ratio is almost identical to high performance cars) from half as much carbon and oxygen. Additionally, motorcycles generally don't have catalytic converters, which convert CO (and sometimes NOx) to CO2. I think this stems from the Berkeley "study" which assumed a typical motorcycle is a VMAX and a typical automobile is a hybrid VW chock full of hipsters.

 

[werepossum]

You know, most cars come equipped with these things called windows and they actually can be opened to let air in.

Christ, why anyone would open a car door on the freeway is beyond me but if you did you damned well better know what is coming up behind you because if you cause an accident from opening a door it's entirely your fault.

I've seen a number of people open doors when stopped in traffic. Fortunately I've never been riding between lanes so I didn't have to argue over whose fault my crash was.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spqZ704Um-s

I expect 90% of you guys on this thread to say this guy deserved this.

 

[cubby1223]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spqZ704Um-s

I expect 90% of you guys on this thread to say this guy deserved this.

I bet 90% within this thread could explain how this incident should easily have been avoided.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I don't know why anyone would open their car door in the middle of a traffic jam. To what purpose? If you want air lower your window...

Exception would be for example when we were stuck on the highway for a good 30+min dead stop because of an accident that shut the highway down for a while as they cleared it. People shut their cars off and got out to stretch and just make idle chit chat with other motorists until we got the word that the highway would be moving again soon.

 

[bradley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spqZ704Um-s

I expect 90% of you guys on this thread to say this guy deserved this.

These things make for dumb drivers: road rage, immature drivers who cannot act like reasonable human beings in a 2-ton vehicle, drivers who initiate unsolicited comments, motorcyclists who drive aggressively weaving in and out of traffic and lane-splitting... also, those who drive distracted or under the influence, drivers who exit their cars into traffic duh?, drivers who never bother to signal, those who don't properly maintain their vehicles etc. Oh and drivers who try to crowdfund their own stupidity.

He didn't deserve it, but likely got what was coming to him.

 

[Wuzup101]

From a driver standpoint is solved by having a CCW (which even California allows).

California technically allows them, but from what I've read it's almost impossible to get them in some counties (like LA). It's a big difference from here (PA) where you are issued one as long as you aren't disqualified (i.e. shall issue state).

 

[cubby1223]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spqZ704Um-s

I expect 90% of you guys on this thread to say this guy deserved this.

Seriously, that is the exact definition of hypocrisy. I can lane-split and skip ahead of all you jerks because I'm on a motorcycle and that makes me entitled, but you in the car cannot because it's fucking dangerous to my safety!

Did he deserve it? Who knows. It's karma, though. And karma's often a cold-hearted bitch.

Why didn't he immediately go forward when the light turned green? Because he knew he was in a very dangerous situation and wanted to make sure the car on his left was staying stopped. Why was he in a very dangerous situation? Because he's a fucking moron. No sympathy from me 😀

Video recap:
(A) motorcyclist decides to put himself in a dangerous situation
(B) motorcyclist becomes victim of the dangerous situation

Who's to blame? Someone else. Obviously.

 

[CZroe]

If I stay on high gear I can get 50mpg on my 600cc sports bike. If I can ride like a maniac it probably goes down to 27mpg. Mostly It's around 45mpg between typical fill up.

MPG != CO2 per Gallon

 

[cubby1223]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spqZ704Um-s

I expect 90% of you guys on this thread to say this guy deserved this.

No, I'm going to continue commenting on this video.

If you locate the article that goes along with this video, the biker starts out ranting about how horrible his commute is with tons of irresponsible "cagers" all around him.

So, this guy identifies one such irresponsible "cager" and what does he decide to do?

(1) lane-split to get right up next to him within inches of the car
(2) yell at him
(3) pass him
(4) coast down to a slower speed

Every normal person's response to that is "I need to get away from this guy asap." The motorcyclist had every opportunity to get away, either by speeding away, or by changing to the right-lane and letting the car go by.

The biker decided to do neither, the biker decided to be a full-on jackass, likely caused a panic in the car driver, and panics cause accidents. If I were king, the biker would be the one with the majority of fault in that incident.

 

[CZroe]

Something I just realized - how are you going to determine relative speed? I've been driving for decades and I'd be hard pressed to tell you my speed w/o looking at the dashboard. Even knowing which gear I'm in and listening to the engine, I'd still have a hard time.

So I have no idea what my relative speed is when passing traffic that's moving. And is a cop really going to clock both you and the traffic around you to determine if you're exceeding a 15mph differential. Of course not. So the provision is essentially unenforceable.

Are you serious? Traffic slows to 30MPH, you slow to 30MPH, you speed up to pass at 40MPH, your relative speed is 10MPH. It's not hard. Granted, relativistic physics dictate that speeds don't perfectly add up, but it's super close (walk 2MPH forward on a 3MPH train and your speed is something like 4.999999999999999...MPH).

 

[Charmonium]

Are you serious? Traffic slows to 30MPH, you slow to 30MPH, you speed up to pass at 40MPH, your relative speed is 10MPH. It's not hard. Granted, relativistic physics dictate that speeds don't perfectly add up, but it's super close (walk 2MPH forward on a 3MPH train and your speed is something like 4.999999999999999...MPH).

You missed the point, well, 2 points really. The first is how accurately can the average driver, bike or car, judge relative speeds. Sure, I look at my speedo and tell how fast I'm going. The issue is how much faster am I going than the other traffic. That's subjective.

The second point was enforceability. Imagine you're a cop testifying that someone exceeded the 15mph relative limit while traffic was moving. He'd have to clock both the traffic and the bike to be able to testify that someone broke the law. And then the biker can just argue that the speeds changed between measurements. So the law is essentially unenforceable unless you go back to the types of standards they used pre-radar guns.

 

[CZroe]

Second portion is spot-on; being ass end Charlie is a very dangerous position due to all the people texting or just being distracted. Doesn't have to be lane splitting though - if you leave enough space in front of you, you can easily dart in between cars if someone is coming up behind you.





Yeah, I too call shens. My Ninja gets 50 mpg. No way do I believe it puts out twice the CO2 (especially given that its compression ratio is almost identical to high performance cars) from half as much carbon and oxygen. Additionally, motorcycles generally don't have catalytic converters, which convert CO (and sometimes NOx) to CO2. I think this stems from the Berkeley "study" which assumed a typical motorcycle is a VMAX and a typical automobile is a hybrid VW chock full of hipsters.

I have three Ninjas that get 85+MPG and one that gets 65MPG, but I said CO2 per gallon, which has nothing to do with MPG. Look it up.

 

[JulesMaximus]

You missed the point, well, 2 points really. The first is how accurately can the average driver, bike or car, judge relative speeds. Sure, I look at my speedo and tell how fast I'm going. The issue is how much faster am I going than the other traffic. That's subjective.

The second point was enforceability. Imagine you're a cop testifying that someone exceeded the 15mph relative limit while traffic was moving. He'd have to clock both the traffic and the bike to be able to testify that someone broke the law. And then the biker can just argue that the speeds changed between measurements. So the law is essentially unenforceable unless you go back to the types of standards they used pre-radar guns.

I can easily judge how fast I'm overtaking other vehicles, it is called experience. I know how fast is too fast and what is safe vs what is not. Again, the burden is on me to do this safely and I pay the ultimate price if I get it wrong. It really is not difficult to do and CHP motorcycle cops are probably VERY good at this as well... they've been doing it for decades.

You really care about motorcycle safety? Advocate ABS for all bikes. The year CHP went to BMW motorcycles with ABS there were zero officer fatalities that year due to crashes... and lane splitting was the practice then too and I see motorcycle cops lane split all the time.

Face it, you are arguing a point you know absolutely nothing about.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I have three Ninjas that get 85+MPG and one that gets 65MPG, but I said CO2 per gallon, which has nothing to do with MPG. Look it up.

For a given distance, a bike that gets 85 mpg will put out less CO2 than a bike that gets 50mpg. You burned less fuel, so less CO2 will be produced. Physics.

But, in the end, that CO2 is pretty darn meaningless.

 

[CZroe]

You missed the point, well, 2 points really. The first is how accurately can the average driver, bike or car, judge relative speeds. Sure, I look at my speedo and tell how fast I'm going. The issue is how much faster am I going than the other traffic. That's subjective.

The second point was enforceability. Imagine you're a cop testifying that someone exceeded the 15mph relative limit while traffic was moving. He'd have to clock both the traffic and the bike to be able to testify that someone broke the law. And then the biker can just argue that the speeds changed between measurements. So the law is essentially unenforceable unless you go back to the types of standards they used pre-radar guns.

I didn't miss them at all. Police already measure your speed relative to theirs. Heck, they can even pull you over in many (most?) place for visually asserting that you were breaking the speed limit. It happened to me and I got the whole lecture about being trained to tell visually how fast another vehicle was going.

Have you ever tried to maintain a low speed like 15MPH? It's almost painfully slow. You will be seemingly crawling past cars at that speed (normal relative speed for passing). A cop car traveling at 45MPH will be able to tell if you blow by at 65MPH. You will register on his equipment at 20MPH and you will appear relatively 33.3% faster than someone going only 15MPH over his speed, which is significant. The existing guidelines were to keep it at 10MPH over traffic speed which, while painfully slow, is a hell of a lot better than stopped in bumper to bumper traffic.

The extra 5MPH cements that someone doing 20MPH or more to violate the legal limit is being truly reckless. No doubt, CHP will still suggest 10MPH for safety reasons. I've already seen their old guidelines quoted in this thread, so it seems that they are still on the website.