YAWotMC thread (War on the Middle Class)

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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350
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My contention is not that the economy didn't grow. My contention is that supply side economics has not provided the overall economic benefit to society that the proponents claimed it would. Most of the economic benefits seen from supply side economics benefited the rich and investor classes at the expense of the Middle class. There are many of different articles and sources on the internet that point out this very thing.

If you look at the large economic growth since Reagan - not a bit of it went to the bottom 80% of Americans, after inflation.

And the top 1% of Americans got 80% of the growth.

This has been a *massive* redistribution of the wealth to the very top that few people here have any idea about.

And it has given the rich more power with which to impoverish everyone else.

While much of the problem may be less visible now, that's because it's disguised as debt, which has grown at an incredible rate during the same period.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
I'm gonna ask my questions again, since they were ignored:

1. How does reducing taxes on the richest take money away from the middle and lower classes?

2. How does increasing taxes on the richest translate into higher wages for the middle and lower classes?

3. How has wealth redistribution through taxes directly helped middle class people?

Fern
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
If you look at the large economic growth since Reagan - not a bit of it went to the bottom 80% of Americans, after inflation.

And the top 1% of Americans got 80% of the growth.

This has been a *massive* redistribution of the wealth to the very top that few people here have any idea about.

And it has given the rich more power with which to impoverish everyone else.

While much of the problem may be less visible now, that's because it's disguised as debt, which has grown at an incredible rate during the same period.

It has NOT been a redistribution of wealth, Craig. It has been the creation of wealth. Redistribution implies wealth taken from one area (as you claim the middle class) and put somewhere else (as you claim the upper class). That is complete bullshit. Wealth is not static.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
If you look at the large economic growth since Reagan - not a bit of it went to the bottom 80% of Americans, after inflation.

And the top 1% of Americans got 80% of the growth.

This has been a *massive* redistribution of the wealth to the very top that few people here have any idea about.

And it has given the rich more power with which to impoverish everyone else.

While much of the problem may be less visible now, that's because it's disguised as debt, which has grown at an incredible rate during the same period.

The group of super rich people during the Reagan is a different group than we have to day. In fact, this year's group is different from last year's (if nothing else Bernie Madoff saw to that).

Those super rich are always changing, some going up, some going down. So all you're really aguing is that the super rich shouldn't exist. You're arguing we shouldn't have that opportunity in the USA. You're arguing against opportunity?

I'm onboard with arguing against dynasties, but that's a different matter.

Fern
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
it's not that anyone is against anyone becoming super rich, it's when there is a mechanism in place that squeezes out the middle class.

Middle class used to be about 1-2 bread winners living comfortably in a home with a couple good cars and taking that family vacation each year. Meanwhile having money to retire one day.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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There are good parametric estimations by economists going to back to the great depression. The Gini index has been on the rise in the US for 40 consecutive years. The sharpest rise being in the 80's. I would predict, though, that it is returning to a sharper rise in 2010.

and you'd expect a rising gini coefficient of wealth when the bottom 95% holds most of its wealth in a rather stable asset that has other value than just as an asset (land) and the top 1% holds most of its wealth in rather riskier assets (stock). however, a rising gini coefficient does not necessarily indicate that the wealth of any particular class or quintile is falling.

for example, particular, the gini coefficient of wealth calculated by wolff barely budged from 1989 to 2007 (from 0.832 to 0.834, likely not statistically significant and it was below those two numbers for all intermediate years, so no, it hasn't increased for 40 straight years), while the % wealth held by the top 1% actually dropped from 37.4% to 34.6% (peaked at 38.5% in 1998 and hit the low of 33.4% in 2001).

the real action was in the next 4%, which saw its share increase from 21.6% in 1989 to 27.3% in 2007.

unfortunately wolff didn't bother marking his calculations for statistical significance compared to some base year. based on calculations from the federal reserve, variation may not be statistically significant from year to year as the variation can be quite small. also worth noting that the federal reserve calculates a lower gini coefficient for wealth for each of those years.

the real key here is that top 1% wealth is tied to the stock market, while practically everyone else holds their wealth primarily in their house. for 2010, because the stock market is up and home values are still down, the gini number is going to be higher, and the top 1%'s share of wealth is going to be higher.

the other important take away is that debt really weighs on the wealth question. income to debt for the middle 60% increased from 100% to 157% from 2001 to 2007. debt as a percentage of equity doubled from 31.7% to 61.1%. the top 1% holds basically no debt in relation to its wealth (2.8% wolff wrote that as a decimal rather than as a % which makes it seem two magnitudes smaller, don't know if intentional or an editing error). stock ownership was also off.

now, wolff states that while debt ratios were increasing much more rapidly, consumption wasn't picking up pace from where it was 1983 to 2001. data can be found here. where did the spending go?

that brings up back to college, medicine, and housing.



it's not that anyone is against anyone becoming super rich, it's when there is a mechanism in place that squeezes out the middle class.

Middle class used to be about 1-2 bread winners living comfortably in a home with a couple good cars and taking that family vacation each year. Meanwhile having money to retire one day.
actually iirc it was 1 car and a house that was about 2/3 the size of a current median house (though elizabeth warren points out that there's not even a whole room increase, the square footage has gone up a ton... not many more rooms, but the rooms are bigger. and afaik current median house includes anyone living in any house, so all those old houses built prior to house sizes rocketing upward count. i bet average new house size has nearly doubled in sq. footage)
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I'm gonna ask my questions again, since they were ignored:

1. How does reducing taxes on the richest take money away from the middle and lower classes?

That question reflects a high degree of economic illiteracy, whatever your skills as a CPA.

Books can be and have been written on the topic. I'll mention just a couple basic answers of many answers.

For one, money has relative value. Ultimately, it's about assigning shares of wealth.

If you and another guy are competing to buy a house, then his going up twice or 10 times or 100 times in wealth has a big effect on the to you for the house.

Before Reagan, IIRC the top 1% owned about 8% of the wealth; that's since increased to close to 25%.

That has a very long list of effects on everyone else's wealth, for the worse. Some are more direct, like everything that makes money being owned by fewer people.

That in turn denies profit, and opportunity, to most.

Others are less direct - things like the billionares being able to more easily buy public opinion, to spread propaganda, for their own interests - like funding propaganda 'think tanks' to come up with advertising campaigns to sell lies, and armies to spread the lies as 'pundits' and direct media ownership etc.

Yet another way is that hundreds of billions in tax cuts for the top 1% is a transfer of wealth off of their share of the debt and placing that debt on the public - which if it doesn't mean higher taxes for the public, means a devaluation of the currency that takes from everyone else.[/quote]


2. How does increasing taxes on the richest translate into higher wages for the middle and lower classes?

Again, there are a number of things, but again one is basic political influence and you should understand that who has the money influences political power.

The more the middle class has the more its political power; the more the rich have the more their political power. Hence 'the rich get richer and the poor get poorer'.

And ultimately, while blind ideologues throw out the word 'redistributionist' like it makes a point, who pays the taxes benefits some more and some less.

The rich are only manufacturing public outrage against taxes to the degree they are because they have things rigged in part so their low taxes while we run up the deficit help them increase their share of the wealth. As soon as the public says "wait a second, with these big deficits we can't give rich people who are already skyrocketing with increases to wealth more big tax cuts", and since they can't just say 'give us all the money', they get people not to want to raise the rich's taxes.

One thing you should understand is that the rich almost always want everyone else to get lower wages - and even moreso from the view of multinational corporations.

So you have a rich class with a corporate agenda against the interests of the American people - and using global wage competition can be a strategy, not a problem to them.

They don't admit their agenda, but they give the poor and middle class propaganda to yell at liberals about. 'Nancy Pelosi gets fancy booze!!'

3. How has wealth redistribution through taxes directly helped middle class people?

Fern

Look at the explosion for the middle class doing better by pretty much every metric from the beginning of the 20th century (right-wing) to the middle (liberal).

FDR led the policies that are called 'the great compression' where things got a lot more equal in the country - and pretty much everyone (white) thrived as a result.

Heck, it did even help lift the boats of the minorities and pave the way for civil rights - moving from Plessy v. Ferguson to Brown v. Board of Education.

A one-income blue-collar household could do just fine, buying a home, having a family and a car or two, college for the children. Economic growth was fine, deficit near zero.

Many other things were the case - business culture was different, with more 'sense of public obligation', a tiny fraction of lobbyists without hundreds or thousands in Congress and staff planning on lucrative lobbying, without the massive spending for campaigns, without propaganda nearly as much.

Read the link below of an almost decade-old Paul Krugman article, here's an excerpt.

He explains how there are not well understood benefits to society of less of a concentration of wealth, that answer you.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9505EFD9113AF933A15753C1A9649C8B63&pagewanted=3

Some -- by no means all -- economists trying to understand growing inequality have begun to take seriously a hypothesis that would have been considered irredeemably fuzzy-minded not long ago. This view stresses the role of social norms in setting limits to inequality. According to this view, the New Deal had a more profound impact on American society than even its most ardent admirers have suggested: it imposed norms of relative equality in pay that persisted for more than 30 years, creating the broadly middle-class society we came to take for granted. But those norms began to unravel in the 1970's and have done so at an accelerating pace.

Exhibit A for this view is the story of executive compensation. In the 1960's, America's great corporations behaved more like socialist republics than like cutthroat capitalist enterprises, and top executives behaved more like public-spirited bureaucrats than like captains of industry. I'm not exaggerating. Consider the description of executive behavior offered by John Kenneth Galbraith in his 1967 book, ''The New Industrial State'': ''Management does not go out ruthlessly to reward itself -- a sound management is expected to exercise restraint.'' Managerial self-dealing was a thing of the past: ''With the power of decision goes opportunity for making money. . . . Were everyone to seek to do so . . . the corporation would be a chaos of competitive avarice. But these are not the sort of thing that a good company man does; a remarkably effective code bans such behavior. Group decision-making insures, moreover, that almost everyone's actions and even thoughts are known to others. This acts to enforce the code and, more than incidentally, a high standard of personal honesty as well.''

He goes on:

Studies that try to do a better job of tracking high incomes have found startling results. For example, a recent study by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office used income tax data and other sources to improve on the census estimates. The C.B.O. study found that between 1979 and 1997, the after-tax incomes of the top 1 percent of families rose 157 percent, compared with only a 10 percent gain for families near the middle of the income distribution. Even more startling results come from a new study by Thomas Piketty, at the French research institute Cepremap, and Emmanuel Saez, who is now at the University of California at Berkeley. Using income tax data, Piketty and Saez have produced estimates of the incomes of the well-to-do, the rich and the very rich back to 1913.

The first point you learn from these new estimates is that the middle-class America of my youth is best thought of not as the normal state of our society, but as an interregnum between Gilded Ages. America before 1930 was a society in which a small number of very rich people controlled a large share of the nation's wealth. We became a middle-class society only after the concentration of income at the top dropped sharply during the New Deal, and especially during World War II. The economic historians Claudia Goldin and Robert Margo have dubbed the narrowing of income gaps during those years the Great Compression. Incomes then stayed fairly equally distributed until the 1970's: the rapid rise in incomes during the first postwar generation was very evenly spread across the population.

Since the 1970's, however, income gaps have been rapidly widening. Piketty and Saez confirm what I suspected: by most measures we are, in fact, back to the days of ''The Great Gatsby.'' After 30 years in which the income shares of the top 10 percent of taxpayers, the top 1 percent and so on were far below their levels in the 1920's, all are very nearly back where they were.

And the big winners are the very, very rich...

And he goes on:

Well, no. Although America has higher per capita income than other advanced countries, it turns out that that's mainly because our rich are much richer. And here's a radical thought: if the rich get more, that leaves less for everyone else.

That statement -- which is simply a matter of arithmetic -- is guaranteed to bring accusations of ''class warfare.'' If the accuser gets more specific, he'll probably offer two reasons that it's foolish to make a fuss over the high incomes of a few people at the top of the income distribution. First, he'll tell you that what the elite get may look like a lot of money, but it's still a small share of the total -- that is, when all is said and done the rich aren't getting that big a piece of the pie. Second, he'll tell you that trying to do anything to reduce incomes at the top will hurt, not help, people further down the distribution, because attempts to redistribute income damage incentives.

These arguments for lack of concern are plausible. And they were entirely correct, once upon a time -- namely, back when we had a middle-class society. But there's a lot less truth to them now.

First, the share of the rich in total income is no longer trivial. These days 1 percent of families receive about 16 percent of total pretax income, and have about 14 percent of after-tax income. That share has roughly doubled over the past 30 years, and is now about as large as the share of the bottom 40 percent of the population. That's a big shift of income to the top; as a matter of pure arithmetic, it must mean that the incomes of less well off families grew considerably more slowly than average income. And they did. Adjusting for inflation, average family income -- total income divided by the number of families -- grew 28 percent from 1979 to 1997. But median family income -- the income of a family in the middle of the distribution, a better indicator of how typical American families are doing -- grew only 10 percent. And the incomes of the bottom fifth of families actually fell slightly.

Let me belabor this point for a bit. We pride ourselves, with considerable justification, on our record of economic growth. But over the last few decades it's remarkable how little of that growth has trickled down to ordinary families. Median family income has risen only about 0.5 percent per year -- and as far as we can tell from somewhat unreliable data, just about all of that increase was due to wives working longer hours, with little or no gain in real wages. Furthermore, numbers about income don't reflect the growing riskiness of life for ordinary workers. In the days when General Motors was known in-house as Generous Motors, many workers felt that they had considerable job security -- the company wouldn't fire them except in extremis. Many had contracts that guaranteed health insurance, even if they were laid off; they had pension benefits that did not depend on the stock market. Now mass firings from long-established companies are commonplace; losing your job means losing your insurance; and as millions of people have been learning, a 401(k) plan is no guarantee of a comfortable retirement.

Still, many people will say that while the U.S. economic system may generate a lot of inequality, it also generates much higher incomes than any alternative, so that everyone is better off. That was the moral Business Week tried to convey in its recent special issue with ''25 Ideas for a Changing World.'' One of those ideas was ''the rich get richer, and that's O.K.'' High incomes at the top, the conventional wisdom declares, are the result of a free-market system that provides huge incentives for performance. And the system delivers that performance, which means that wealth at the top doesn't come at the expense of the rest of us...

The moral of this comparison is that even if you think that America's high levels of inequality are the price of our high level of national income, it's not at all clear that this price is worth paying. The reason conservatives engage in bouts of Sweden-bashing is that they want to convince us that there is no tradeoff between economic efficiency and equity -- that if you try to take from the rich and give to the poor, you actually make everyone worse off. But the comparison between the U.S. and other advanced countries doesn't support this conclusion at all. Yes, we are the richest major nation. But because so much of our national income is concentrated in relatively few hands, large numbers of Americans are worse off economically than their counterparts in other advanced countries.

And we might even offer a challenge from the other side: inequality in the United States has arguably reached levels where it is counterproductive. That is, you can make a case that our society would be richer if its richest members didn't get quite so much.

I could make this argument on historical grounds. The most impressive economic growth in U.S. history coincided with the middle-class interregnum, the post-World War II generation, when incomes were most evenly distributed. But let's focus on a specific case, the extraordinary pay packages of today's top executives. Are these good for the economy?
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
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It has NOT been a redistribution of wealth, Craig. It has been the creation of wealth. Redistribution implies wealth taken from one area (as you claim the middle class) and put somewhere else (as you claim the upper class). That is complete bullshit. Wealth is not static.

It's just as much redistribution as raising taxes. The only difference is the government is not taking the money from you in the form of taxes or giving it out in the form of wealth-fare, Medicaid, etc.

By giving the rich a reduced tax burden we have given them more money to invest and grow. We did not give the middle class the same reduced burden so they were not able to increase their investments to the same proportion as the rich. The rich now have a greater advantage then they previously had in generating wealth.

I agree with you wealth is not static, but it is relative. With the rich making money faster they are in turn leaving everyone else farther and farther behind.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
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It's just as much redistribution as raising taxes. The only difference is the government is not taking the money from you in the form of taxes or giving it out in the form of wealth-fare, Medicaid, etc.

By giving the rich a reduced tax burden we have given them more money to invest and grow. We did not give the middle class the same reduced burden so they were not able to increase their investments to the same proportion as the rich. The rich now have a greater advantage then they previously had in generating wealth.

I agree with you wealth is not static, but it is relative. With the rich making money faster they are in turn leaving everyone else farther and farther behind.

I agree the rich have gotten some sweet tax deals in the last 30 years; however, so have the middle class. I wont try and argue its proportionate, because its not. But my point is, giving the rich a tax break doesnt take money from anyone, except the government. And my other point is, the biggest reason the middle class is struggling has absolutely ZERO to do with how rich the rich actually are. It has to do with the cost of living for them i.e. housing, education, and health care/medicine being the biggest issues. The battle crys for taxing the rich is a red herring. If the government wants to fix the middle class, make it easier to actually live in the middle class. Taxing the rich wont do that.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
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But my point is, giving the rich a tax break doesnt take money from anyone, except the government.

But you see it does effect more than just the government. I explained that in my post you quoted. Sure it doesn't take money away from the poor or middle class right this minute, but over time with inflation and other economic factors the poor and middle class go down relative to the rich. This makes them poorer in comparison to the rich then they were before. This is how we got to where we are now. This is why the rich control so much of the wealth in this country. They were able to grow at a much faster rate then everyone else, partly because of the tax breaks, and in economics everything is relative.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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Before Reagan, IIRC the top 1% owned about 8% of the wealth; that's since increased to close to 25%.

nope. i've posted the figures in the thread. it has gone from about 28.5% under LBJ and nixon to about 35% over the last 20 years. there have been fluctuations as the stock market has varied, from 19% after the oil embargo and subsequent 8 year stock market flatness to probably 40% right now due to (relative) recovery of the stock market and continuing doldrums in the housing market.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
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ostif.org
and you'd expect a rising gini coefficient of wealth when the bottom 95% holds most of its wealth in a rather stable asset that has other value than just as an asset (land) and the top 1% holds most of its wealth in rather riskier assets (stock). however, a rising gini coefficient does not necessarily indicate that the wealth of any particular class or quintile is falling.

for example, particular, the gini coefficient of wealth calculated by wolff barely budged from 1989 to 2007 (from 0.832 to 0.834, likely not statistically significant and it was below those two numbers for all intermediate years, so no, it hasn't increased for 40 straight years), while the % wealth held by the top 1% actually dropped from 37.4% to 34.6% (peaked at 38.5% in 1998 and hit the low of 33.4% in 2001).

the real action was in the next 4%, which saw its share increase from 21.6% in 1989 to 27.3% in 2007.

unfortunately wolff didn't bother marking his calculations for statistical significance compared to some base year. based on calculations from the federal reserve, variation may not be statistically significant from year to year as the variation can be quite small. also worth noting that the federal reserve calculates a lower gini coefficient for wealth for each of those years.

the real key here is that top 1% wealth is tied to the stock market, while practically everyone else holds their wealth primarily in their house. for 2010, because the stock market is up and home values are still down, the gini number is going to be higher, and the top 1%'s share of wealth is going to be higher.

the other important take away is that debt really weighs on the wealth question. income to debt for the middle 60% increased from 100% to 157% from 2001 to 2007. debt as a percentage of equity doubled from 31.7% to 61.1%. the top 1% holds basically no debt in relation to its wealth (2.8% wolff wrote that as a decimal rather than as a % which makes it seem two magnitudes smaller, don't know if intentional or an editing error). stock ownership was also off.

now, wolff states that while debt ratios were increasing much more rapidly, consumption wasn't picking up pace from where it was 1983 to 2001. data can be found here. where did the spending go?

that brings up back to college, medicine, and housing.




actually iirc it was 1 car and a house that was about 2/3 the size of a current median house (though elizabeth warren points out that there's not even a whole room increase, the square footage has gone up a ton... not many more rooms, but the rooms are bigger. and afaik current median house includes anyone living in any house, so all those old houses built prior to house sizes rocketing upward count. i bet average new house size has nearly doubled in sq. footage)

I must respectfully disagree with nearly your entire post.

40% of the people working in the United States have zero or negative net worth.

If we actually talk about wealth instead of income things actually look SUBSTANTIALLY worse for everyone but the top 1%.

The gini index is based on yearly income.

Also as a side note: The 1st quintile now earns more than 50% of the income. (50.1% is the 2010 estimation)

Also something is wrong with your quoted data. No nation anywhere has had a gini coefficient that high. The U.S. is currently around .46. They had to be playing with some data in a pretty dramatic fashion to come up with .8xx. Were they possibly measuring wealth disparity instead of income disparity?
 
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ElFenix

Elite Member
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Mar 20, 2000
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I must respectfully disagree with nearly your entire post.

40% of the people working in the United States have zero or negative net worth.

If we actually talk about wealth instead of income things actually look SUBSTANTIALLY worse for everyone but the top 1%.

The gini index is based on yearly income.

Also as a side note: The 1st quintile now earns more than 50% of the income. (50.1% is the 2010 estimation)

Also something is wrong with your quoted data. No nation anywhere has had a gini coefficient that high. The U.S. is currently around .46. They had to be playing with some data in a pretty dramatic fashion to come up with .8xx. Were they possibly measuring wealth disparity instead of income disparity?

how many times did i say 'wealth ' in the post? 5 times? 6? i never talked about income. maybe you should read the post before disagreeing with it. nearly nothing in there is opinion, i posted facts and linked or referred to the sources.

gini is just a mathematical function. it can be applied to any distribution, not just wealth or income.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
how many times did i say 'wealth ' in the post? 5 times? 6? i never talked about income. maybe you should read the post before disagreeing with it. nearly nothing in there is opinion, i posted facts and linked or referred to the sources.

gini is just a mathematical function. it can be applied to any distribution, not just wealth or income.

The gini index coefficient is very specific. You can use it to measure other things, but whatever.

So lets talk about wealth. Why is it okay to have an index near .90?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
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Mar 20, 2000
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The gini index coefficient is very specific.
not really.
The Gini coefficient is a measure of statistical dispersion developed by the Italian statistician Corrado Gini and published in his 1912 paper "Variability and Mutability" (Italian: Variabilità e mutabilità).
The Gini coefficient is a measure of the inequality of a distribution, a value of 0 expressing total equality and a value of 1 maximal inequality. It has found application in the study of inequalities in disciplines as diverse as economics, health science, ecology, chemistry and engineering.
You can use it to measure other things, but whatever.

So lets talk about wealth. Why is it okay to have an index near .90?

who said it was?