YAULT - yet another uber/lyft thread

[Fenixgoon]

Will Uber,Lyft, Favor, etc. ever get nailed with a big old lawsuit? I'm of the opinion that all the gig economy style services are simply a race to the bottom to exploit an individual's labor, and I avoid those services accordingly.

https://jalopnik.com/uber-and-lyft-take-a-lot-more-from-drivers-than-they-sa-1837450373/amp

 

[Blackjack200]

Will Uber,Lyft, Favor, etc. ever get nailed with a big old lawsuit? I'm of the opinion that all the gig economy style services are simply a race to the bottom to exploit an individual's labor, and I avoid those services accordingly.

https://jalopnik.com/uber-and-lyft-take-a-lot-more-from-drivers-than-they-sa-1837450373/amp

I totally agree. I rarely use Uber, when I do I try to tip in cash.

 

[Homerboy]

I totally agree. I rarely use Uber, when I do I try to tip in cash.

Anytime I tip anyone for anything I try to do it in cash.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Yeah gig stuff is a total scam meant to bypass regulations to cut corporate cost to maximize corporate profit. And we've repeatedly seen why those regulations exist. That's not to say there aren't some bad regulations that were causing stagnation, but companies like Uber are worse than Wal-Mart or Amazon (which should say something).

I think the telling thing though is that even with all of that behavior, Uber and Lyft don't actually make money (and the people working for them don't make enough to make it worthwhile). Uber loses money like fucking crazy (and their business model could be disrupted quite easily by other players - Google alone for instance likely could easily do so, Apple could probably buy their way there, and Amazon would crush Uber's logistics and is probably just a matter of time til we get "get a free ride to where you're going if you deliver a package for Amazon" or something). I think Uber is basically a tax scam or money laundering scheme at this point. While Lyft is better as a company, their business model isn't any better.

 

[Blackjack200]

I think Uber is basically a tax scam or money laundering scheme at this point. While Lyft is better as a company, their business model isn't any better.

Uber is funded entirely by investors and have no path to profitability. Similar to Tesla and Wework.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Uber is funded entirely by investors and have no path to profitability. Similar to Tesla and Wework.

tesla at least makes stuff though. while any sort of full-self-driving is way off (there are too many fringe scenarios that become sufficiently common with 10M cars on the road), their cars are quite popular and they have turned a profit at points

 

[sportage]

I don't know much about either, but my nephew drives for Lyft.
All I can see is that those drivers are taking all the risk.
They must use their own personal property, use their own insurance, are responsible for their own losses and all damage, the drivers take all the risk and hits while the company takes all the profit.
It's like a 401K retirement plan.
The retiree takes all the risks, takes all the hits, and still fully accountable to the IRS while the company has nothing to risk. Nothing at all.
How many CEO's wouldn't want a worker to not only work but to also pay back the company for working?
Well, that is the 401K concept. And the concept of companies like Lyft and Uber.
Pretty nice setup for the company? You betcha.

 

[KMFJD]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stefanovich-supreme-court-uber-class-action-decision-1.5626853

Uber thinks arbitration is the answer for contract disputes, yet trying to do so would end up costing the employee close to half his years pay, courts ruled against Uber and this paves the way for a class action lawsuit

 

[KMFJD]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1293565510425206797

doesn't sound good for uber

 

[Greenman]

I despise the "you do all the work and take all the risk while we make all the money" business model.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I despise the "you do all the work and take all the risk while we make all the money" business model.

On that we can agree! 🍻

https://twitter.com/x/status/1293565510425206797

doesn't sound good for uber

Someone, I think on arstechnica, made a good point in that even if Uber agreed to implement the changes requested by the courts, the timeframe for that to occur is so long that Uber would likely have to shut down anyway.
So I will cut Uber a little slack in that very narrow regard.

 

[hal2kilo]

Just more lowest common denominator (LCD) capitalism. Make em fight for scraps against one another.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

And taxis are also a complete scam with the biggest of scum. See taxi medallion shit in New York: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/nyregion/nyc-taxi-medallion-lawsuit.html


With Uber it is the beauty of capitalism where I get into a car that's actually clean - and I've had quite a few do things like offer me a bottle of water and to charge my phone.

The concept of "exploiting labor" in a sense of something you LITERALLY HAVE TO SIGN UP FOR VIA YOUR SMARTPHONE AT HOME is fucking fall on the floor laughing. You can't be serious, can you?


I can agree to SOME type of regulation - but making them classified as employees? That's ridiculous. There's plenty that just casually do it for < 8 hours in a week. I met plenty when I was traveling down to Chicago where the driver would just be using it to help pay for their daily commute + daily parking since the app allows them to pick only customers that are headed in the same direction as they are.

 

[Fenixgoon]

And taxis are also a complete scam with the biggest of scum. See taxi medallion shit in New York: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/nyregion/nyc-taxi-medallion-lawsuit.html


With Uber it is the beauty of capitalism where I get into a car that's actually clean - and I've had quite a few do things like offer me a bottle of water and to charge my phone.

The concept of "exploiting labor" in a sense of something you LITERALLY HAVE TO SIGN UP FOR VIA YOUR SMARTPHONE AT HOME is fucking fall on the floor laughing. You can't be serious, can you?


I can agree to SOME type of regulation - but making them classified as employees? That's ridiculous. There's plenty that just casually do it for < 8 hours in a week. I met plenty when I was traveling down to Chicago where the driver would just be using it to help pay for their daily commute + daily parking since the app allows them to pick only customers that are headed in the same direction as they are.

The exploitive part of Uber isn't that it's what taxis should have evolved into (and failed to do so). It's that Uber puts all the risk on drivers as if they were contractors but still exerts control as if they were employees. You can't (shouldn't be able to) do both.

Contractors can set their own hours and rates. Uber drivers cannot set rates and are penalized for not taking fares.
Employees agree to a rate set by their employer but in return get things like health insurance, vehicle insurance, and mileage reimbursement to cover vehicle wear and tear. Uber drivers get none.

Edit: I think at some point a court case did force Uber/lift to provide vehicle insurance. Can't remember

And yet Uber still can't turn a goddamn profit which is unreal

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The exploitive part of Uber isn't that it's what taxis should have evolved into (and failed to do so). It's that Uber puts all the risk on drivers as if they were contractors but still exerts control as if they were employees. You can't (shouldn't be able to) do both.

Contractors can set their own hours and rates. Uber drivers cannot set rates and are penalized for not taking fares.
Employees agree to a rate set by their employer but in return get things like health insurance, vehicle insurance, and mileage reimbursement to cover vehicle wear and tear. Uber drivers get none.

Edit: I think at some point a court case did force Uber/lift to provide vehicle insurance. Can't remember

And yet Uber still can't turn a goddamn profit which is unreal

Taxis are a complete piece of shit. In all my times taking rides to airports and to/from places - only taxis smell like complete shit, have ripped up seats, cars they never clean/vacuum, and also in general have asshole drivers who also try to exploit people (e.g. taking wrong routes, including tip, etc.).

Uber was the answer to that. Anyone can do it (because literally, just about anyoen can drive a car) so no more exploiting the market with shit like "medallions" and expensive certifications that are worthless.

So if you want to shit on someone/something - don't fucking look at Uber. They are the answer to the problem that was never fixed and was continuously exploited.




Now - to your point of contractors. As you said, contractors can set their own hours - which is definitely a given with uber. As far as rates - that is a laughable point. Just as much as contractors can state their rate, the company hiring their services can decline their rate. So no - it doesn't work like that. I mean, the drivers can probably feel free to call Uber and request a special rate for them, but something tells me you know what the answer would be.

Employees also have a set number of hours - and are given a specific guiddance (e.g., you will be here from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM). Contractors don't have that restriction because it is simply based on performing the service.

There is zero question whatsoever that taxi drivers (or uber drivers, whatever you want to call them) are not employees. They have zero restrictions on where to work, when to work, etc.. Like I said, I ran into plenty of Uber drivers when I was going to Chicago weekly who would simply use it to help pay for their downtown parking every day. That is literally < 8 hours of "work" a week, and you think they are entitled to medical benefits and other employee-based shit like vacation? Yeah, sorry dude, that's laughable.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Taxis are a complete piece of shit. In all my times taking rides to airports and to/from places - only taxis smell like complete shit, have ripped up seats, cars they never clean/vacuum, and also in general have asshole drivers who also try to exploit people (e.g. taking wrong routes, including tip, etc.).

Uber was the answer to that. Anyone can do it (because literally, just about anyoen can drive a car) so no more exploiting the market with shit like "medallions" and expensive certifications that are worthless.

So if you want to shit on someone/something - don't fucking look at Uber. They are the answer to the problem that was never fixed and was continuously exploited.




Now - to your point of contractors. As you said, contractors can set their own hours - which is definitely a given with uber. As far as rates - that is a laughable point. Just as much as contractors can state their rate, the company hiring their services can decline their rate. So no - it doesn't work like that.

Employees also have a set number of hours - and are given a specific guiddance (e.g., you will be here from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM). Contractors don't have that restriction because it is simply based on performing the service.

There is zero question whatsoever that taxi drivers (or uber drivers, whatever you want to call them) are not employees. They have zero restrictions on where to work, when to work, etc.. Like I said, I ran into plenty of Uber drivers when I was going to Chicago weekly who would simply use it to help pay for their downtown parking every day. That is literally < 8 hours of "work" a week, and you think they are entitled to medical benefits and other employee-based shit like vacation? Yeah, sorry dude, that's laughable.

I'm not disagreeing that taxis are shitty. But that doesn't mean we should let Uber stomp all over people in a completely different way.

Contractors can set their own hours without penalty. But Uber is known to penalize infrequent drivers.
In addition to hours, Uber has requirements on the quality/condition of vehicle (beyond safety).

The company hiring the driver is the rider, not Uber. Uber is a middleman, a facilitator, a dispatcher. It should be no different than hiring someone to work on your home - 5 contractors give you 5 rates, and you are free to choose whichever you feel is best. But that's not how Uber works, which is one of the criteria that sets apart contractors and employees.

Working under a certain threshold of hours? Man, I wish we only had a classification for employees who work part of the time.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I did like the idea of uber early on. Load an app, ask for a ride and that ride shows up promptly. Reasonable cost too.
Early on I am sure drivers made decent money however we all tend to forget as someone makes easy money it attracts more and more dummies who think doing cheap labor in exchange for high volume makes up the difference.
Got news for you unless you own a fleet of cars and want to be totally ruthless about expenses this will never work long term assuming you don’t or can’t work 18 hours per day.
Back to the topic, I like how they shook up the cab industry, I like how they have made the can industry more responsive.
I don’t like their comp plans, I don’t like how someone becomes a review slave, I don’t like how they poorly vette drivers, I don’t like how they have a huge competative advantage because they don’t need to buy taxi permits or coins or whatever they are call.

I guess at this point I say Uber and Lyft look like cab services, act like cab services, market like cab services. Then they are a cab service.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I'm not disagreeing that taxis are shitty. But that doesn't mean we should let Uber stomp all over people in a completely different way.

Contractors can set their own hours without penalty. But Uber is known to penalize infrequent drivers.
In addition to hours, Uber has requirements on the quality/condition of vehicle (beyond safety).

The company hiring the driver is the rider, not Uber. Uber is a middleman, a facilitator, a dispatcher. It should be no different than hiring someone to work on your home - 5 contractors give you 5 rates, and you are free to choose whichever you feel is best. But that's not how Uber works, which is one of the criteria that sets apart contractors and employees.

Working under a certain threshold of hours? Man, I wish we only had a classification for employees who work part of the time.

Yeah, sorry - just going to have to respectfully disagree with you there on employee vs. contractor


There are COUNTLESS examples of where there is a "man in the middle" whose entire purpose is to connect the independent contractors to people that need the service. That doesn't make them employees.


I mean off the top of my head a quick similarity that comes to mind:

Home Warranty - There are providers that bill as a "home warranty" for your home where if something goes wrong, you can get it fixed for a flat rate. They contract with folks to provide the service to fix the home item for a SET fee. If they don't like it, then they won't get a phone call to provide the service. Simple as that.


I can also make a case for health insurance. They connect you with doctors to provide their contracting services for a set rate. How are these any different?

 

[woolfe9998]

The exploitive part of Uber isn't that it's what taxis should have evolved into (and failed to do so). It's that Uber puts all the risk on drivers as if they were contractors but still exerts control as if they were employees. You can't (shouldn't be able to) do both.

Contractors can set their own hours and rates. Uber drivers cannot set rates and are penalized for not taking fares.

AFAIK in response to this law, Uber and Lyft are now allowing drivers to see destinations prior to having to accept or reject the ride, and they ended the penalties for rejecting rides.

So far as not being able to negotiate rates, be careful what you wish for. They now have a pilot program where drivers can bid their rates against each other, and passengers would have options over which driver to select based on pricing and proximity. That is a race to the bottom for drivers. I'm hoping they won't implement this because no one would want to drive and their business would be over.

Employees agree to a rate set by their employer but in return get things like health insurance, vehicle insurance, and mileage reimbursement to cover vehicle wear and tear. Uber drivers get none.

Edit: I think at some point a court case did force Uber/lift to provide vehicle insurance. Can't remember

And yet Uber still can't turn a goddamn profit which is unreal

Health insurance is not required just because you are an employee. Uber and Lyft will never provide it, no matter whether they are forced to treat their drivers as employees or not.

Other supposed benefits of this law do not apply to rideshare drivers or would make things worse for them. Unemployment insurance is irrelevant as they will never qualify for it. There's always some demand for rides so they are never "let go" unless there is serious misconduct like drunk driving on the job. A slowing of demand would not qualify as them being unemployed.

Overtime rules applying would be bad. The companies would not allow drivers to drive more than 8 hours a day or 40 hours per week, which would diminish a driver's choice and flexibility of hours.

What drivers need is higher pay, period. A better law would say that Uber and Lyft only have to treat their drivers as employees if they pay them less than x percent of the total fare, where x is a number greater than what they currently pay.