Great post Tynopik. I'm a christian, but I don't take everything in the Bible literally. II'm open to science, I'd be a fool not to be. I definately think humans have evolved, from what, I'm not sure. I'm aware of the science that says humans evolved from apes, but I'm not a scholar in this science so I can't argue it one way or another.
From what I've read, arguments I've seen about the evolution vs. creationism debate, I definately believe we are "special" and that God has played a role in our creation, but I'm a huge believer in free will. That God kind of just put us here, and is pretty much sitting on the sidelines letting us do what we want. But that is for another debate, and DISCLAIMER, I'm not going to respond to any replies to my comment.
But Gag's post is almost hilarious. Creationists do think about such things. To say that the logic clashes with what the book says is more ignorant than he is making creationists out to be. He's obviously never read the book or at least understood it. Fairy tales or not, it never says that "intelligence isn't good". This dude's a fool!
He must of got molested by some sicko claiming to be a christian, because his obvious shallow stab at the faith is certainly a nearly programmatic knee jerk response to the idea of christians having intelligence.
the church I go to on occasion, the pastor even preaches against those who are sheepish. Tells people to open their bibles, and THINK FOR THEMSELVES. He even has brought out examples of conflictory interpretations of different versions of the bible. How words taken from hebrew were found to be misentreprted. That the point is to read the "stories" and learn from them, whether they are true or not.
Yea, but generalizing ALL christians the way Gag did isn't the way to be. I know plenty of christians who don't stand by the bible as perfect and uncorrupted over time, but that Christianity is more about a way of life than believing in fairy tales/stories that were passed down over time.
It's like, God didn't say "don't sleep with thy neighbors wife" just because... It was a warning. Sleep with your neighbors wife, and bad shit will happen, like getting killed by the husband. Don't want bad shit to happen, don't sleep with your nieghbors wife.
I love reading about science. The theory of evolution is just that, a theory, but you are correct, to ignore scientific fact is CLOSE minded. The pastor at my church often speaks against being sheepish, not thinking for yourself, and has told people that if they were to ignore scientific fact, and blindingly follow what other christians tell them, they are insulting the intelligence and ability to reason that God gave them.
Gibsons
Lifer
- Aug 14, 2001
- 12,530
- 35
- 91
You still don't understand what is meant by a scientific theory. In the strictest sense, all scientific theories are unproved and unprovable. But they are testable and falsifiable. Scientific theories make predictions. "if you find this, you should also find this."
i.e. if you find a new species of primate tomorrow, evolutionary theory makes dozens of very strong predictions about what DNA sequences should and should not be found in its genome. If we find that these predictions are all wrong, the theory is in serious trouble. Creationism, on the other hand, makes no prediction, not one, about what that genome should look like. The hypothetical genome could be the most absurd thing you could think of, say, not even made of DNA, and creationism would explain it the same exact way and equally as poorly as it explains the mundane and expected: "god did it." Not really an explanation at all.
Creationism does not make predictions, is not testable, and is not falsifiable, therefore it's not scientific.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Science never said that humans evolved from apes. We evolved from a common ancester.
"To say that the logic clashes with what the book says is more ignorant than he is making creationists out to be." If you take a literal interpretation of the Bible, then indeed, logic does clash. Literal interpretation yields that the Earth is only 6000 years old. If you look at the preponderance of evidence, it would be quite illogical to dismiss it or to interpret that evidence as anything but showing the Earth is MUCH older than 6000 years.
Carbon dating
other radioactive dating
rate of stalactite formation
rate of continental drift, paired with data that shows where continents were together in the past
fossil record
frequency of types of genetic mutations
rate at which the ocean floor is expanding (it's been too many years - one of those trenches or rifts or something)
erosion rates
etc. The list goes on and on. All of these things correlate with everything else with a very high degree of accuracy. The only thing they don't correlate with is what the Bible claims (6000 years old, worldwide flood, etc.)
A literal interpretation leads to bullshit like dinosaurs and humans being in existence at the same time. Apparently, The Flintstones ranks right up there with Davey and Goliath for accuracy.
I don't argue that, and I like I said, about evolution, I'm only aware of the science, not a scholar.
Everything else you said is correct, and my point was that not all Christians are close-minded enough to just take the bible completely literally for every word. Many christians read the book for guidance on how to live their lives, not for answers on how the world was created.
I often pick up the book, and randomly open it somewhere, and read something that honestly relates to issues in my life. Sometimes, the shit makes no sense.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
btw: "Yea, but generalizing ALL christians the way Gag did isn't the way to be. I know plenty of Christians who don't stand by the Bible as perfect and uncorrupted over time, but that Christianity is more about a way of life than believing in fairy tales/stories that were passed down over time." :thumbsup: to them. The Bible is filled with allegorical stories, not to be taken literally. If you study the history of literature - stories were allegorical in the period of time that the Bible was written (just a tiny bit of evidence that they were originally intended as allegorical.) To completely dismiss the Bible is to ignore one of the most major components of Western Civilization. Even if you're atheistic or agnostic, you should take the time to read the Bible, at least once.
Now, about the "You need to provide proof of evolution in this thread" crap. Tell you what, how about if we just point to some links for BOOKS on the topic - you can purchase some books on Amazon, else go to your local library. Your proof of creationism: a couple paragraphs from the Bible that would fit inside a single post here. cliffs: God did it. Evidence for evolution: the amount of evidence for evolution fills volumes. There's not enough room in a post.
I believe this book can be read in its entirety online:
http://books.google.com/books?...lt&ct=result&resnum=12
99 pages on geological evidence. You can probably skip the first 5 or 10 pages. Would you like me to cut and past it into this post as evidence of evolution? Or can you just read it there instead?
Now, about the "You need to provide proof of evolution in this thread" crap. Tell you what, how about if we just point to some links for BOOKS on the topic - you can purchase some books on Amazon, else go to your local library. Your proof of creationism: a couple paragraphs from the Bible that would fit inside a single post here. cliffs: God did it. Evidence for evolution: the amount of evidence for evolution fills volumes. There's not enough room in a post.
I believe this book can be read in its entirety online:
http://books.google.com/books?...lt&ct=result&resnum=12
99 pages on geological evidence. You can probably skip the first 5 or 10 pages. Would you like me to cut and past it into this post as evidence of evolution? Or can you just read it there instead?
nerp
Diamond Member
- Dec 31, 2005
- 9,865
- 105
- 106
You apparently fail.
Watch Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Then do some basic reading. Then you'll have a much clearer idea. We know how the earth was formed, step by step. The birth and death of stars is understood now and we know that all matter in the universe came from dying stars. We are stardust. Your sad attempt at explaining it fails because you haven't done the preliminary study and reading to understand. Our plant is just gas and dust that formed into a hot ball. Nothing about it is beyond the laws of physics.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Perfect. I don't think anyone has an issue with that. Unfortunately for Christians, like some of the other religions, there is a small (but very vocal) minority who take it a few steps too far. Since the title of this thread has "creationists" in it, this thread isn't referring to Christians like you. There are Christians who read the book and (this is the important part) use it for guidance on how OTHER people should live their lives. There are varying degrees to which this is done - the Westboro nutcases being one of the more extreme groups. But there are others who think Intelligent Design is science (it's not) and should be taught in science classes.
nerp
Diamond Member
- Dec 31, 2005
- 9,865
- 105
- 106
It's not a theory. It happened. It's real. Even the structure of our brains tell the story of our reptilian past. From the brain stem that all reptiles share with us that guide our hiearchy and agression to the uppermost reaches of our cerebral cortex, the story of where we came from is in our own heads. Again, watch some Carl Sagan's cosmos. (It's on netflix streaming). Your doubts about evolution will dissapear. It is not a theory. It really happened.
Take a gander at farm animals. Unnatural selection. Our very maniuplation of life on this planet shows that natural selection exists.
Look at the technology that humans have created. In a way it mimics evolution. i.e. 4 bit processor to 64 bit etc... Things we create improve over time but our intelligence limits us from applying this concept to life or maybe we can through genetics. The Bible says humans were created in the image of God. If that part of humans is the same it MAY be that is how God created things. But it could have happened in many different ways.
surfsatwerk
Lifer
- Mar 6, 2008
- 10,110
- 5
- 81
Natural evolution is not comparable to what we humans do. Natural evolution has no goal or end product in mind. Evolution doesn't care that the Dodo was potentially less fit once it lost its ability to fly, it's just a numbers game dealing with natural mutation, the environment, and reproduction.
Thats why I said our intelligence limits us to applying this to life. Your perspective is that there is no goal but maybe there is. There are examples of things we created/improved by accident in the process of experimenting.
Got proof? Why is it still called the "theory"? Like I stated before, I'm not a scholar in evolution, so I'm asking a question, not challenging.
surfsatwerk
Lifer
- Mar 6, 2008
- 10,110
- 5
- 81
There is no goal. Just like when it rains on a town that hadn't had any rain for weeks. The rain did not fall to help the suffering town, it was just a natural outcome of the various processes that create rain.
Humans like to anthropomorphize all kinds of stuff. I can't remember when this trend began but in college zoology class we were taught not to refer to organisms as "higher" or "lower" but rather "more derived" and "less derived" from an assumed common ancestor. That way we would not accidental foster any notion that one organism is better or worse than any other simply because of it's evolutionary background.
You can use the "no goal" example with human creations as well. I'm not sure what your trying to prove. There may have been a goal in the process of evoluation and also no goal in some examples of creation/evolution.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
As I pointed out before, there is enough proof to provide volumes.
The question: "Why is it still called the 'theory'" is completely ignorant else borders on trolling. It's called "gravitational theory" - people don't walk around saying "why is it only a theory? Got proof?" And the reason they don't go around saying that is that there's nothing in the Bible that says "And on the 8th day, being the 1st day after God resteth, God did notice that the aardvarks and the anchovies... and man did begin to floateth away. And God did thence command "things will falleth toward the surface of the Earth, because I command thee."
If the Bible *did* explain that things didn't float off the planet because God commanded them not to, then I think we'd be having these exact same arguments about gravity. In fact, there's probably less evidence for gravity/more problems with gravity than there is with evolution. Of the 4 fundamental forces, gravity is the force that is least understood. Observations of galaxies leads to the conclusion that there must be dark matter. There must be dark energy, etc. These are all very major questions in science. Evolution - not so much of a question.
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