YAPLPCT: First step taken towards reversing Roe v. Wade...

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

palad

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2000
1,586
0
0
Originally posted by: Spac3d
This is so stupid, women should have a choice.

I completely support abortion... if you created it, you should be able to destroy it.

I think parents should be able to have complete control over their kids. If you have a retarded kid, you should be able to destroy them. What type of life would they lead? A worthless one because they are useless. There lack of life skills will lead them to rely upon tax dollars just to survive:disgust:

How dare you judge a person's worth by your own limited vision!

You should show this to your parents. They might have a change of heart about letting you live after reading it.

Seriously, you need to talk to parents of disabled (retarded) children. You need to get to know some disabled children. If you have never known pure love and acceptance in your life, they will show it to you. Yes, even a black-hearted person like you. These children may need more financial support over their lives, but that does not make them worthless. It is only selfish parents who regret having them. There are many, many families who would readily testify that their lives have been immeasuably brightened by the light and love these children bring. I have been touched by it myself, and will forever be a better person because of it.

You can't reduce life to a balance-sheet like a chekbook. If you could, your limited scope would persuade many to write you off. Get a new perspective, or you'll be unhappy all your life.
 

jaeger66

Banned
Jan 1, 2001
3,852
0
0
Originally posted by: newbiepcuser


The most recent case conerning abortion was The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists on the U.S. Supreme Court Abortion CaseStenberg v. Carhart April 21, 2000 discussing partial abortion.

Linky

That law was reversed by the SC, just like the one this thread regards will be. So what we have is a bill that wouldn't stop one single abortion, and even if it did it won't get past the SC. So there's nothing to worry about here. What I am worried about is the government trying to take the place of a doctor in deciding how best to treat a patient.

 

ILikeStuff

Senior member
Jan 7, 2003
476
0
0
Originally posted by: palad
Originally posted by: Spac3d
This is so stupid, women should have a choice.

I completely support abortion... if you created it, you should be able to destroy it.

I think parents should be able to have complete control over their kids. If you have a retarded kid, you should be able to destroy them. What type of life would they lead? A worthless one because they are useless. There lack of life skills will lead them to rely upon tax dollars just to survive:disgust:

How dare you judge a person's worth by your own limited vision!

You should show this to your parents. They might have a change of heart about letting you live after reading it.

Seriously, you need to talk to parents of disabled (retarded) children. You need to get to know some disabled children. If you have never known pure love and acceptance in your life, they will show it to you. Yes, even a black-hearted person like you. These children may need more financial support over their lives, but that does not make them worthless. It is only selfish parents who regret having them. There are many, many families who would readily testify that their lives have been immeasuably brightened by the light and love these children bring. I have been touched by it myself, and will forever be a better person because of it.

You can't reduce life to a balance-sheet like a chekbook. If you could, your limited scope would persuade many to write you off. Get a new perspective, or you'll be unhappy all your life.

Well said
 

FeathersMcGraw

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2001
4,041
1
0
Originally posted by: Cfour
Adoption is a perfectly acceptable alternative to abortions. There are waiting lists of capable, loving couples to take in a newborn baby. The only time abortion is acceptable is in the event of rape or incest. If you have sex, you have to accept the possible outcomes of it.

The driving force behind abortion is not, I suspect, raising the child after birth but carrying it to term. In any case, I'm not terribly sanguine about the odds that a woman who won't see fit to raise the child herself will be any more responsible during the nine months up until that point.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I'm all for abortion. I think we have too many little brats running around as it is. Hell, I'd be forced sterilisation of welfare reipients.

My biggest problem with abortion isn't with abortion, but with not getting an abortion. It's legal to kill a baby up until the second a doctor delivers it. If a woman is 8 months in and decides she doesn't want the kid, she can tell the doctor to abort it. Probably doesn't happen often but it could. However when some teenage girl carries the baby to term and delivers it in an alley, then dumps the baby in a dumpster, that's murder.

Hypocritical laws piss me off.
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: DeafeningSilence
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
i don't understand trying to make abortions illegal.

didn't we learn anything from prohibition? making something illegal, when you KNOW that people will continue to do it and that it will be impossible to enforce is just plain stupid.

That's silly. Inability to fully enforce a law does not make the law improper.

Murder... rape... robbery... heck, even tax fraud... with any crime, there are criminals who go unpunished. I don't know of laws that have been passed on the basis of some sort of efficiency rating.

your right, and yet we do it all the time. we pick and choose which laws we enforce. prohibition was such a case. a case of trying to enforce something that was impossible.

agreed, all the crimes you mentioned take effort to enforce. the difference is this, the public is more than willing to pay a significant amount to make those crimes go away, abortion is a much harder sell. there's not the same level of self protection involved in abortion as there is in murder, rape, robber, tax fraud, insurance fraud etc.

bottom line law enforcement has to sell their product. it does. and the only way to sell it is self preservation. when they go and try to raise money for law enforcement, they are interested in letting us know how they are protecting us. abortion doesn't get the same level of support in the same way that prohibition didn't.

 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: palad
I would love to see abortion become illegal. I fully support a woman's right to choose -- I just don't support her right to choose the consequences of her actions. The choice needs to happen before the sex, not after. Afterwards, they need to learn to live with their decisions.

It would be ridiculous for me to step off a cliff, and then halfway down change my mind and expect to land back up where I started. So how can we say it's okay to have unprotected sex, and expect to avoid responsibility for the action?

great argument and that's why i agree with you morally and ethically. i just don't see it legally for various reasons i've posted.
 

FeathersMcGraw

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2001
4,041
1
0
Originally posted by: palad
I would love to see abortion become illegal. I fully support a woman's right to choose -- I just don't support her right to choose the consequences of her actions. The choice needs to happen before the sex, not after. Afterwards, they need to learn to live with their decisions.

I don't buy the "you were naughty and had sex, and now you have to deal with it" logic against abortion. I'm not saying that it's great for people to run around being promiscuous, and I'm not saying that there aren't consequences for one's actions, but the idea that a newborn child is going to be effectively used by the state as a tool of punishment sits poorly with me, particularly if the childrearing abilities (or at the very least, motivation) of the unwilling parent are suspect.
 

Fausto

Elite Member
Nov 29, 2000
26,521
2
0
Originally posted by: ILikeStuff
Originally posted by: Cfour
Originally posted by: ILikeStuff
Originally posted by: Cfour
Adoption is a perfectly acceptable alternative to abortions. There are waiting lists of capable, loving couples to take in a newborn baby. The only time abortion is acceptable is in the event of rape or incest. If you have sex, you have to accept the possible outcomes of it.

In my eyes, abortion = murder.

I agree, except w/ the rape and incest bit... why should the child be punished for the wrongdoing of another person?

I can see where you're coming from but in the case of rape.. the woman isn't choosing to have sex. And in the case of incest, isn't there some sort of documentation that shows horrible results of inbreeding? I could be wrong here, so if I am, please correct me.

yes, inbreeding can lead to certain birth defects, but it is not a certainty. And just because the woman didn't choose to have sex, should not give her the right to murder her child. (but obviously I am working from the POV that human life begins at conception)
You're also completely discounting how the woman might feel about carrying the product of an act of violence commited against her for nine months and then bringing it into the world. Furthermore, how productive a member of society will a child, knowing he or she is the product of rape, ever become? Adopted kids have a hard enough time coming to terms with who and why they are already, imagine how it would feel to be the child of a rape victim?

 

Spac3d

Banned
Jul 3, 2001
6,651
1
0
Originally posted by: DeafeningSilence
Originally posted by: Spac3d
This is so stupid, women should have a choice.

I completely support abortion... if you created it, you should be able to destroy it.

I think parents should be able to have complete control over their kids. If you have a retarded kid, you should be able to destroy them. What type of life would they lead? A worthless one because they are useless. There lack of life skills will lead them to rely upon tax dollars just to survive:disgust:

This is truly unbelievable, by the way. I hope you were joking, but I'm afraid that's not the case.

Tell me... on what basis should parents be able to decide to "destroy" their kids? IQ? What numeric score on some dumb test renders one "useless"? Can parents evaluate their children based on other criteria as well? What if they view their child as disappointing because he lies, fights, isn't motivated at school, does drugs, announces he's gay, or doesn't excel at sports?

Unbelievable.
This is too serious a topic to waste my time posting "jokes". There is no test that can judge if a child is useless...it is just something the parents decide based on whatever their situation is. If they feel the latter...about sports they are just as justified in destroying their child. The government should have no say in how you treat your child.

If you disagree with my opinion, that is your decision, but mocking my views is a waste of your time.

 

FeathersMcGraw

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2001
4,041
1
0
Originally posted by: Spac3d

This is too serious a topic to waste my time posting "jokes". There is no test that can judge if a child is useless...it is just something the parents decide based on whatever their situation is. If they feel the latter...about sports they are just as justified in destroying their child. The government should have no say in how you treat your child.

Let's abolish child abuse laws!
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Cfour
Adoption is a perfectly acceptable alternative to abortions. There are waiting lists of capable, loving couples to take in a newborn baby. The only time abortion is acceptable is in the event of rape or incest. If you have sex, you have to accept the possible outcomes of it.

In my eyes, abortion = murder.
Good then deal with your own and don't force your morals on others.

what else is law?
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Cfour
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Cfour
Adoption is a perfectly acceptable alternative to abortions. There are waiting lists of capable, loving couples to take in a newborn baby. The only time abortion is acceptable is in the event of rape or incest. If you have sex, you have to accept the possible outcomes of it.

In my eyes, abortion = murder.
Good then deal with your own and don't force your morals on others.

Hey, I'm just offering my views because this is a forum, and we do that here. Welcome to ATOT.
Granted. Sorry for my pointed post.
RD apologized! :Q
 

Fausto

Elite Member
Nov 29, 2000
26,521
2
0
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Cfour
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Cfour
Adoption is a perfectly acceptable alternative to abortions. There are waiting lists of capable, loving couples to take in a newborn baby. The only time abortion is acceptable is in the event of rape or incest. If you have sex, you have to accept the possible outcomes of it.

In my eyes, abortion = murder.
Good then deal with your own and don't force your morals on others.

Hey, I'm just offering my views because this is a forum, and we do that here. Welcome to ATOT.
Granted. Sorry for my pointed post.
RD apologized! :Q
Don't get too excited.....he may have been drinking. It is Friday after all.... :p

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Cfour
Adoption is a perfectly acceptable alternative to abortions. There are waiting lists of capable, loving couples to take in a newborn baby. The only time abortion is acceptable is in the event of rape or incest. If you have sex, you have to accept the possible outcomes of it.

In my eyes, abortion = murder.
Good then deal with your own and don't force your morals on others.

what else is law?
Law is the forcing of ones own morals upon others?
 

Spac3d

Banned
Jul 3, 2001
6,651
1
0
Originally posted by: FeathersMcGraw
Originally posted by: Spac3d

This is too serious a topic to waste my time posting "jokes". There is no test that can judge if a child is useless...it is just something the parents decide based on whatever their situation is. If they feel the latter...about sports they are just as justified in destroying their child. The government should have no say in how you treat your child.

Let's abolish child abuse laws!

Absolutely...if you paid for it...why the hell can't you break it? You people are too uptight. You act like every parent is going to have there kids stapled to the floor boards! You think you would have been killed by your parents? If so i think you better reevaluate your relationship with them.
 

Spac3d

Banned
Jul 3, 2001
6,651
1
0
Originally posted by: palad
Originally posted by: Spac3d
This is so stupid, women should have a choice.

I completely support abortion... if you created it, you should be able to destroy it.

I think parents should be able to have complete control over their kids. If you have a retarded kid, you should be able to destroy them. What type of life would they lead? A worthless one because they are useless. There lack of life skills will lead them to rely upon tax dollars just to survive:disgust:

How dare you judge a person's worth by your own limited vision!

You should show this to your parents. They might have a change of heart about letting you live after reading it.

Seriously, you need to talk to parents of disabled (retarded) children. You need to get to know some disabled children. If you have never known pure love and acceptance in your life, they will show it to you. Yes, even a black-hearted person like you. These children may need more financial support over their lives, but that does not make them worthless. It is only selfish parents who regret having them. There are many, many families who would readily testify that their lives have been immeasuably brightened by the light and love these children bring. I have been touched by it myself, and will forever be a better person because of it.

You can't reduce life to a balance-sheet like a chekbook. If you could, your limited scope would persuade many to write you off. Get a new perspective, or you'll be unhappy all your life.

You do not know my relationship with my parents. For all you know, I may have learned this from my parents. So don't make assumptions which insult you. I have dealt with retarded children before in volunteering. I am not saying that all retarded children should be destroyed. If you want your retarded kid you are entitled to pay for him.

And sure, people love all kinds of weird stuff, and a Porsche can brighten someone's life. So if i miss out on what could be the best thing that could happen to me; hey that?s my problem, I'll deal with it. For every "happy" person, with a child, I am sure there are people that don't like having children or would not like to have children, for example..hmmm...me. Love may be great, but it is weakness. And you want to judge my opinion as bad, crazy, or wrong? Well there are no such things. Instead there are more subtle levels of good and bad.

And you know if you want to get rid of your kid at 3 months pregnant, what is so different than 2 years old? I feel if I want to control my child's life, I should be able to do it when I feel, not when "you" deem it socially acceptable. Cause isn't that what this whole argument is? When society feels its ok to decide not to have a kid anymore?

What is good for you is not good for everybody. Remember we live in a democracy and if 90% of our citizens thought rape should be legalized, would it not be wrong to do otherwise? My solution is all inclusive, if you want your child, no matter his/her condition, you go right ahead. And if you want to go save all the children put out by families, that?s your vice, just don't do it at others' expense.

Furthermore...Don't judge me, call me black hearted, and unhappy. I am happy, I am kind, and I have an educated perspective. So put your finger back in your pocket and stop waving it around with a "shame on you!" attitude. How dare I? How dare you! You can question the morality of my life's philosophy, but who gave you the right to decide its right or wrong? You want to change my mind, show me a guarantee that keeping a kid you don't want is good for either of you? And if I don't want the child, and you want to save it...you do that alone.

You want to make this issue way simpler than it is. I'm not going to open up Quicken and judge a child's worth and if his stock drops below 20, sell. Its closed minded people like you that keep recreational drugs illegal, want to save poor Somali kids, and yes, step over the beggar lying in his urine outside the KFC. Selfish people like yourself make others suffer for your own self-righteous motives.
 

imported_Tomato

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2002
7,608
0
0
Originally posted by: Spac3d
And you know if you want to get rid of your kid at 3 months pregnant, what is so different than 2 years old? I feel if I want to control my child's life, I should be able to do it when I feel, not when "you" deem it socially acceptable. Cause isn't that what this whole argument is? When society feels its ok to decide not to have a kid anymore?

:Q:Q:Q:Q:Q

I sincerely hope that's sarcasm.
 

Spac3d

Banned
Jul 3, 2001
6,651
1
0
Originally posted by: Dezign
Originally posted by: Spac3d
And you know if you want to get rid of your kid at 3 months pregnant, what is so different than 2 years old? I feel if I want to control my child's life, I should be able to do it when I feel, not when "you" deem it socially acceptable. Cause isn't that what this whole argument is? When society feels its ok to decide not to have a kid anymore?

:Q:Q:Q:Q:Q

I sincerely hope that's sarcasm.

No it isn't.
 

RGN

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2000
6,623
6
81
I believe abortion is wrong, but I think it is hard for society to regulate it. I _DO_NOT_ agree with partial birth abortions. I beleive that is flat out murder, and should be illegal.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Cfour
Adoption is a perfectly acceptable alternative to abortions. There are waiting lists of capable, loving couples to take in a newborn baby. The only time abortion is acceptable is in the event of rape or incest. If you have sex, you have to accept the possible outcomes of it.

In my eyes, abortion = murder.
Good then deal with your own and don't force your morals on others.

what else is law?

what it is supposed to be, or what it is?
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
It would be ridiculous for me to step off a cliff, and then halfway down change my mind and expect to land back up where I started. So how can we say it's okay to have unprotected sex, and expect to avoid responsibility for the action?

because we added a staircase to that cliff. in case you haven't noticed, it is entirely possible for people to have unprotected sex and end up, to some degree, unaffected.
 

MichaelD

Lifer
Jan 16, 2001
31,528
3
76
Originally posted by: palad
I would love to see abortion become illegal. I fully support a woman's right to choose -- I just don't support her right to choose the consequences of her actions. The choice needs to happen before the sex, not after. Afterwards, they need to learn to live with their decisions.

It would be ridiculous for me to step off a cliff, and then halfway down change my mind and expect to land back up where I started. So how can we say it's okay to have unprotected sex, and expect to avoid responsibility for the action?

Your analogy is flawed. Stepping off a cliff cedes your life to a stronger force called gravity. That decison is NOT reversible...unless you can fly.

Pregnancy is a reversible, physical state. PERIOD. Exactly the same as having a benign (sp?) tumor. You have it removed. No more problems.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Spac3d
Originally posted by: Dezign
Originally posted by: Spac3d
And you know if you want to get rid of your kid at 3 months pregnant, what is so different than 2 years old? I feel if I want to control my child's life, I should be able to do it when I feel, not when "you" deem it socially acceptable. Cause isn't that what this whole argument is? When society feels its ok to decide not to have a kid anymore?

:Q:Q:Q:Q:Q

I sincerely hope that's sarcasm.

No it isn't.
He's right. What's the difference whether you get rid of your kid while it's a fetus or while it's crawling around the house?

Abortion proponents like to talk about the rights of the mother, they just happen to lose in the interest of the rights of the mother the instant that baby is born. At that point the mother has no more rights. Only the child has rights. A complete 180 that happens in seconds. Hypocrites.