YAMST El Paso Wall Mart

[ImpulsE69]

People are lazy. A gun is a lazy murders dream weapon. Most nuts don't want to take the effort to go around stabbing people or hitting them with golf clubs etc. Instead they grab something easy that sprays bullets from a distance in mass quantities. .

You know what, this might be the most compelling argument into the human psyche that anyone has pointed out.

 

[soulcougher73]

You know what, this might be the most compelling argument into the human psyche that anyone has pointed out.

Hopefully you are being serious and not mocking

 

[ImpulsE69]

I love how people simultaneously argue these two things:

1) massively reducing or eliminating gun ownership is impossible
2) massively reducing or eliminating the human inclination towards violence is more achievable

No no no. You aren't following. I'm not arguing against gun control necessarily. I'm stating that in my opinion I do not think it will fix the issue at hand and that our issues go far beyond guns. While mass shootings are horrifying, the chances of being in one are smaller than you dying in a car crash. It has been sensationalized by the media because our country is run on instilling fear in the masses. We have a mental problem in this country that needs addressed, that goes far beyond 'mental illness' in the terms we usually use. I think some law abiding citizens would turn in thier guns, but you have a large number who simply wouldn't and would probably stockpile. We do need to get to the root of the issue.

You keep talking about 'empirical evidence' which I assume you are referring to countries who've banned guns, but those countries are NOTHING like our country. Secondly, you dismiss any other countries who are used to counter that point. Why is that? It sounds like bias.

 

[fskimospy]

No no no. You aren't following. I'm not arguing against gun control necessarily. I'm stating that in my opinion I do not think it will fix the issue at hand and that our issues go far beyond guns. While mass shooting are horrifying, the chances of being in one are smaller than you dying in a car crash. It has been sensationalized by the media. We have a mental problem in this country that needs addressed, that goes far beyond 'mental illness' in the terms we usually use.

Yeah but I don't really care about mass shootings other than as a reason to discuss gun violence in general. The far larger problem is the daily homicides that take place all over the country.

As for whether or not an issue is 'fixed', that's not really important to me either as I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. The evidence indicates a substantial decrease in the number of available guns would achieve substantial improvements in the rate of gun violence in the US so I'm for that.

You keep talking about 'empirical evidence' which I assume you are referring to countries who've banned guns, but those countries are NOTHING like our countries. Secondly, you dismiss any other countries who are used to counter that point. Why is that? It sounds like bias.

No, I am not relying on any other countries as usually cross-cultural comparisons are very difficult to do. I am talking about empirical research into gun prevalence and gun ownership within the United States and how it is a risk factor for both homicide and suicide. (this is the main reason why the average person is an idiot if they buy a gun for self-defense as it makes you more likely to die)

The theory of action is simple: if owning a gun makes you more likely to die then fewer people owning guns will mean fewer deaths. Easy peasy.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

We have a mental problem in this country that needs addressed, that goes far beyond 'mental illness' in the terms we usually use.

This is something that i think needs more attention. I don't know how to coin this or interpret this or whatever, but it seems like there's a large amount of men, especially young ones, that upon the realization that they aren't particularly special or won't get what they want in life, decide they need to affect other people in some way. Maybe they're ill-equipped to find a way to do that in a positive way, or maybe humanity's just exceptionally good at finding ways to kill each other, but they seem to think that grabbing a gun and making some noise is the right way to move forward with their existence, until they end it of course.

How can this be defined? Is it desperation for attention? Desperation implies the intent on receiving a reward of some kind (even negative attention) so it's hard to call it this since most of these individuals promptly kill themselves. Is it to be remembered? Maybe, though I've never personally met someone that had such a hard-on to get remembered in the future that they'd murder a bunch of people to do it. Plus what teenager/20-something really cares about their 'legacy'? That usually comes from old shits with too much money.

So I guess, what motive would a kid have to do this? Or am I reaching for a motive where one doesn't have to exist, because crazy?

 

[fskimospy]

I dont see people from all over the world flocking to Switzerland for health care. I do see them flocking to the US, however.

edit: Top 10 countries for medical tourism

Costa Rica
India
Malaysia
Mexico
Singapore
South Korea
Taiwan
Thailand
Turkey
United States

You realize that the reason Mexico is one of the top 10 countries for medical tourism is US citizens fleeing the United States because our health care system is unaffordable, right?

 

[SMOGZINN]

No no no. You aren't following. I'm not arguing against gun control necessarily. I'm stating that in my opinion I do not think it will fix the issue at hand and that our issues go far beyond guns.

The problem is not that we have a lot of guns, nor it is that we have a lot of angry and/or mentally ill people. It is that we have a lot of angry and/or mentally ill people with guns. We can solve this in several ways. We can take away the guns, or we can make them less angry.
I know how to remove a physical object from a person. I don't know any method to remove an emotion from someone.

So, if you want to keep arguing that we should make some type of mass emotional correction to our entire society to prevent this then please tell us about it how to go about it. Just a basic starting point would be nice, we can spitball from there. Otherwise lets talk about the solutions know how to implement.

 

[nOOky]

Couple of interesting articles on the mental health angle FWIW.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...your-life/201908/is-it-guns-or-mental-illness

https://thehill.com/policy/healthca...arns-against-blaming-mass-shootings-on-mental

 

[soundforbjt]

You realize that the reason Mexico is one of the top 10 countries for medical tourism is US citizens fleeing the United States because our health care system is unaffordable, right?

And it's mostly rich people coming to the US for care, many of them skipping out on paying and hopping a jet back home.

 

[blackangst1]

You think training would prevent mass shootings?

Of course not lol it would certainly reduce accidental shootings.

 

[blackangst1]

You realize that the reason Mexico is one of the top 10 countries for medical tourism is US citizens fleeing the United States because our health care system is unaffordable, right?

Of course

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Of course not lol it would certainly reduce accidental shootings.

Okay, so on topic, why does Switzerland have basically no mass shootings, despite having a comparable gun ownership per capita rate?

 

[fskimospy]

Of course not lol it would certainly reduce accidental shootings.

According to fairly recent research about 600 people die each year from unintentional firearm discharges. That's not nothing, but in the context of ~40,000 firearm deaths a year it's accounting for about 1.5% of deaths.

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3?term=unintentional#31

 

[purbeast0]

You could ban every gun in this country, you could confiscate every gun in this country, it won't stop the violence. You might save 1 or 2 lives here or there

I've read a lot of dumb things on this forum, but this may be at the top of the list.

 

[Vic]

Except Switzerland, who has a ton of guns per capita, and a happier overall population health (oh and is mostly not diverse) doesn't have these issues. Of course, everyone points to the countries that banned guns as examples instead. Switzerland however does have tighter gun laws, with caveats.

Anyone who tries to spin gun violence as anything but mental health issues has an agenda or is mentally unfit themselves.

Switzerland has very strict laws regulating the buying and selling of firearms. Way beyond background checks, every transaction requires specific govt approval.

 

[Amused]

I dont see people from all over the world flocking to Switzerland for health care. I do see them flocking to the US, however.

edit: Top 10 countries for medical tourism

Costa Rica
India
Malaysia
Mexico
Singapore
South Korea
Taiwan
Thailand
Turkey
United States

The irony of that is we're in a list of 2nd and 3rd world countries.

Medical tourism is rarely used for necessary or approved treatments. Most often for banned, woo, alt-med pseudoscience bullshit and plastic surgery.

Meanwhile, the first world countries other than the US spend half as much per capita for dramatically better health outcomes.

And they love it. Show me one protest in any of the first world nations demanding the end to their healthcare systems. They''ll protest gas prices, immigration, dogs, virtually anything... but you can't find a healthcare protest, can ya?

Oops.

 

[Vic]

This is so incorrect. Its not having access to firearms thats the problem. Its training. Switzerland for example is one of the highest per capita gun ownership countries in the world; however, their culture is to train, even kids, on proper firearm use. Also, red flag laws which help here in the US. and their murder rate is near zero for guns.

You missed these 2 very important parts from your own article:

Gun sellers follow strict licensing procedures.

Swiss authorities decide on a local level whether to give people gun permits. They also keep a log of everyone who owns a gun in their region, known as a canton, though hunting rifles and some semiautomatic long arms are exemptfrom the permit requirement.
But cantonal police don't take their duty dolling out gun licenses lightly. They might consult a psychiatrist or talk with authorities in other cantons where a prospective gun buyer has lived before to vet the person.

Swiss laws are designed to prevent anyone who's violent or incompetent from owning a gun.

People who've been convicted of a crime or have an alcohol or drug addiction aren't allowed to buy guns in Switzerland.
The law also states that anyone who "expresses a violent or dangerous attitude" won't be permitted to own a gun.

 

[Amused]

You missed these 2 very important parts from your own article:

Gun sellers follow strict licensing procedures.

Swiss authorities decide on a local level whether to give people gun permits. They also keep a log of everyone who owns a gun in their region, known as a canton, though hunting rifles and some semiautomatic long arms are exemptfrom the permit requirement.
But cantonal police don't take their duty dolling out gun licenses lightly. They might consult a psychiatrist or talk with authorities in other cantons where a prospective gun buyer has lived before to vet the person.

Swiss laws are designed to prevent anyone who's violent or incompetent from owning a gun.

People who've been convicted of a crime or have an alcohol or drug addiction aren't allowed to buy guns in Switzerland.
The law also states that anyone who "expresses a violent or dangerous attitude" won't be permitted to own a gun.

Yep, and the right ignores this:

 

[ImpulsE69]

This is something that i think needs more attention. I don't know how to coin this or interpret this or whatever, but it seems like there's a large amount of men, especially young ones, that upon the realization that they aren't particularly special or won't get what they want in life, decide they need to affect other people in some way. Maybe they're ill-equipped to find a way to do that in a positive way, or maybe humanity's just exceptionally good at finding ways to kill each other, but they seem to think that grabbing a gun and making some noise is the right way to move forward with their existence, until they end it of course.

How can this be defined? Is it desperation for attention? Desperation implies the intent on receiving a reward of some kind (even negative attention) so it's hard to call it this since most of these individuals promptly kill themselves. Is it to be remembered? Maybe, though I've never personally met someone that had such a hard-on to get remembered in the future that they'd murder a bunch of people to do it. Plus what teenager/20-something really cares about their 'legacy'? That usually comes from old shits with too much money.

So I guess, what motive would a kid have to do this? Or am I reaching for a motive where one doesn't have to exist, because crazy?

Assuming we are only referring to mass shootings, motives are going to be a case by case thing. While many are now stating mental illness isn't the problem because most were not diagnosed, I find that to be more of a flaw in the system than any actual evidence to the contrary. No sane person does these sort of things, and if they do, again, what makes anyone think not having a gun will prevent it? For those that stockpiled and planned ahead of time, these were not instances of anger that manifested in seconds. The point made about laziness, was indeed an intriguing take that I hadn't actually considered regarding the use of guns in such situations.

If we look at only the younger people - some sort of 'look at me' certainly seems to play into it, but can't be the only thing. The problem is that these things happen across a broad spectrum of ages and almost all involve some sort of desperation - but as to what makes a person say 1. I want to kill myself publicly (sensationalism) 2. and I want to kill a bunch of other random people first (sensationalism) 3. actually go through with both 1&2 escapes me. I think that is what I wish we could get to the bottom of.

EDIT: In my opinion I think a general lack of respect for human life is increasing. It could stem from they don't feel respected therefor they in turn don't respect others, or even the sensationalism of 'this will make them respect me' mentality. Human pride can be dangerous.

I've read a lot of dumb things on this forum, but this may be at the top of the list.

Context means everything. So in case you missed it I was addressing mass shootings and how overall the body count for those is not that high in the grand scheme of things. I get you don't agree with my take on it, as noted by your posts you are starting to get wrapped up in the fear regarding the subject and may disagree with my thoughts - but responses like this don't lead to a solution either.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Yep, and the right ignores this:

View attachment 9283

Yea, this was a pretty dumb thing to see happen.

 

[Vic]

Okay, so on topic, why does Switzerland have basically no mass shootings, despite having a comparable gun ownership per capita rate?

The Swiss have strict gun control laws that allow the government to tightly control who is allowed to own and possess a firearm, how many firearms an approved gun owner may own, and strict regulations on where they may transport those guns. Carry, either open or concealed, is tightly controlled and requires licenses that are difficult for private citizens to obtain. Buying and selling of firearms is limited to licensed gun dealers only, and every transaction must be approved by the govt. It is rare that a private citizen is allowed to own more than one firearm, unless they're considered antiques or collectibles. The govt has arbitrary authority over who can and who cannot own a firearm, with very little due process required to deny an individual the right to own or possess a gun. The storage location of every firearm is registered with and controlled by the govt.

This is the NRA's gunowners paradise.

 

[blackangst1]

You missed these 2 very important parts from your own article:

Gun sellers follow strict licensing procedures.

Swiss authorities decide on a local level whether to give people gun permits. They also keep a log of everyone who owns a gun in their region, known as a canton, though hunting rifles and some semiautomatic long arms are exemptfrom the permit requirement.
But cantonal police don't take their duty dolling out gun licenses lightly. They might consult a psychiatrist or talk with authorities in other cantons where a prospective gun buyer has lived before to vet the person.

Swiss laws are designed to prevent anyone who's violent or incompetent from owning a gun.

People who've been convicted of a crime or have an alcohol or drug addiction aren't allowed to buy guns in Switzerland.
The law also states that anyone who "expresses a violent or dangerous attitude" won't be permitted to own a gun.

Yep. And felons arent allowed to buy guns here, either. And before Trump gutted it, Obama passed a law related to mental illness and gun ownership.

 

[brycejones]

Okay, so on topic, why does Switzerland have basically no mass shootings, despite having a comparable gun ownership per capita rate?

Very strict regulations, supply of ammunition is also very tightly controlled. I said it before in this thread, its damn hard to pew pew if you don't have bullets.

 

[purbeast0]

Very strict regulations, supply of ammunition is also very tightly controlled. I said it before in this thread, its damn hard to pew pew if you don't have bullets.

Chris Rock had it right all along.

 

[blackangst1]

According to fairly recent research about 600 people die each year from unintentional firearm discharges. That's not nothing, but in the context of ~40,000 firearm deaths a year it's accounting for about 1.5% of deaths.

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3?term=unintentional#31

Yes, but training would also provide instruction on proper gun storage which would prevent many guns from getting into the wrong hands.