YAHybridT: Does my math pan out?

[Ns1]

Interesting.

I tried it another way.

Assuming you drive the vehicle 100k miles in it's lifetime, and gas is $4/gal, the savings between a 25 and 45mpg vehicle is 8k

That's probably 5-8 years of driving for an average individual. Without doing real cash flow analysis, I'd probably peg that as having a present value of 5-6k

So, I'd guesstimate a 16k car getting 25mpg would be the same as getting a 22k prius

But, I would daresay the 22k prius is probably going to be more comfortable than the 16k car.

Decisions, decisions....

 

[LTC8K6]

"Venezuela(almost all of the profits anytime you go to Chevron)"

Citgo, not Chevron.

Stay away from Citgo if you want to express your displeasure with Chavez.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
We know the battery is significant (as in, a couple thousand or more), and it has a finite life. And it just makes sense that it will be more costly to repair some things, since only certain mechanics will be capable of repairing that technology.

You're right - there isn't much data, since they haven't been around that long.

Actually the best hybrids, Prius, Insight, and Civic have higher than average reliability ratings compared to other cars in their size class, as well as other cars built by the same manufacture. Even under warranty very few batteries have even needed to be replaced in these cars. This is with 8 years of data.

I can't say as much, and really can't recommend the 'bigger' hybrids.

 

[Ns1]

how the FUCK is this car offered at 18.5

ridiculous

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/car/635652283.html

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Chapbass
One thing...at 500 miles a week, thats 26000 miles a year. If I remember right alot of people were saying that those hybrid batteries are only really going to last ~100k miles. Even if you got more than that, it might not last a full 200k which is what 8 years would look like. If the battery is shot..theres another big cost to get a new one.

Granted, i could be wrong as i dont really research hybrids whatsoever, but I thought i remember reading that.

100k is the warranty limit, but there are plenty of 200k Pruis taxis floating around up in Canada.

It has yet to be determined how many miles constitutes driving a hybrid "into the ground".

OP, don't forget maintenance costs, although I really don't know what they look like on hybrids. Presumably the engine requires less maintenance than a conventional car, but you still gotta change the oil, and I'm not sure how much maintenance the electronics require.

Originally posted by: Ns1
Interesting.

I tried it another way.

Assuming you drive the vehicle 100k miles in it's lifetime, and gas is $4/gal, the savings between a 25 and 45mpg vehicle is 8k

That's probably 5-8 years of driving for an average individual. Without doing real cash flow analysis, I'd probably peg that as having a present value of 5-6k

So, I'd guesstimate a 16k car getting 25mpg would be the same as getting a 22k prius

But, I would daresay the 22k prius is probably going to be more comfortable than the 16k car.

Decisions, decisions....

200k miles is much more reasonable. Very few cars go straight to the junkyard at 100k.

As for the environmental damage angle, there is some truth to it, but not much. Most of that comes from a thoroughly discredited study which sought to prove that a Hummer H2 was more "environmentally friendly" than a Prius by making all sorts of zany assumptions and weightings, and placing 100% of the blame for the once-devastated area around a certain Canadian nickel mine on Toyota's shoulders. It turned out that the devastation that they referred to had occurred long before Toyota even dreamed of the Prius, and that the area was substantially cleaned up by this point. Also keep in mind that much of the materials that go into those batteries can be recycled.

I still don't think that hybrids make much sense from a pure-finances perspective, but there are many other factors, and gas isn't going to get any cheaper.

 

[desy]

I've read that document and on its surface its easy to discredit because some assumptions made, but others are legitimate

Yes , they factor in pollution from the Nickel mine which is up for debate as to how damaging mining is, but they also factor in the Nickle being transported to Europe for processing, then to China for processing then to Japan for Assy, and then back to NA for sale, a legitimate concern.

Yes over 300K miles is gracious to the Hummer and 100K dis-ingenuious to the Prius.
But they are only using Toyota's own estimate for the battery pack even though its been proven otherwise that they last longer. They also found out Prious owners travel a lot less than average only 7.5 a year, so even saying it will be on the road for 15 yrs only gets it to 100K miles. That mileage figure can be up for debate as most of the early Prious drivers weren't big drivers, tree huggers who like tech mostly.
But I think now the price of fuel has swung it so high mile drivers are buying them, and I think for city driving they can't be beat I mean 100K city miles you'd burn 2X as much gas in any normal car and cabbies can easily save a pile on fuel with one.

 

[JeepinEd]

Just as a point of reference, I recently traded in my 1st Generation Prius.
It had 230K + miles with the original battery and original rear brakes. I changed the front brakes at 210K miles.
Maintenance was just like any other car and I only had to bring it in for service once due to a noisy rack&pinion.

One thing people aren't taking into account is the higher resale value that hybrids seem to carry.
Before purchasing a new '08 Prius, I looked at some used models. I found a few selling for over $20,000 and had over 60K miles on them!

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Just as a point of reference, I recently traded in my 1st Generation Prius.
It had 230K + miles with the original battery and original rear brakes. I changed the front brakes at 210K miles.
Maintenance was just like any other car and I only had to bring it in for service once due to a noisy rack&pinion.

One thing people aren't taking into account is the higher resale value that hybrids seem to carry.
Before purchasing a new '08 Prius, I looked at some used models. I found a few selling for over $20,000 and had over 60K miles on them!

I sold my Prius with 6,000 miles for more than I originally paid new, including taxes!

 

[GoatMonkey]

Not all hybrids are getting the high resale value of the Prius. Take a look at used Accord Hybrids. Many of them are now selling for less than a V6 Accord that was originally $3000 less. The Accord hybrid may not get the fuel economy of a Prius, but it's not as slow or ugly either.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
Not all hybrids are getting the high resale value of the Prius. Take a look at used Accord Hybrids. Many of them are now selling for less than a V6 Accord that was originally $3000 less. The Accord hybrid may not get the fuel economy of a Prius, but it's not as slow or ugly either.

Just looked up the accord, beast of a car but not good if you're looking to save on gas

 

[GoatMonkey]

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
Not all hybrids are getting the high resale value of the Prius. Take a look at used Accord Hybrids. Many of them are now selling for less than a V6 Accord that was originally $3000 less. The Accord hybrid may not get the fuel economy of a Prius, but it's not as slow or ugly either.

Just looked up the accord, beast of a car but not good if you're looking to save on gas

That attitude seems to be shared by a lot of people, which is why the prices on them have dropped faster than others. Look at it though, you get a normal looking car with solid acceleration (around 6 seconds to 60 I think) and you can average over 30mpg of 87 octane gas if you drive it right. Maybe it's not for you, but it's a great alternative for someone looking at a regular V6 Accord or similar car.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: desy
I've read that document and on its surface its easy to discredit because some assumptions made, but others are legitimate

Yes , they factor in pollution from the Nickel mine which is up for debate as to how damaging mining is, but they also factor in the Nickle being transported to Europe for processing, then to China for processing then to Japan for Assy, and then back to NA for sale, a legitimate concern.

Yes over 300K miles is gracious to the Hummer and 100K dis-ingenuious to the Prius.
But they are only using Toyota's own estimate for the battery pack even though its been proven otherwise that they last longer. They also found out Prious owners travel a lot less than average only 7.5 a year, so even saying it will be on the road for 15 yrs only gets it to 100K miles. That mileage figure can be up for debate as most of the early Prious drivers weren't big drivers, tree huggers who like tech mostly.
But I think now the price of fuel has swung it so high mile drivers are buying them, and I think for city driving they can't be beat I mean 100K city miles you'd burn 2X as much gas in any normal car and cabbies can easily save a pile on fuel with one.

Why is that a concern? It's not as though they transport enough Nickel to make one set of batteries at a time. They probably transport enough to make thousands and thousands of sets of batteries. You might as well argue that we should stop buying cheap goods from China because of the environmental impact of transporting all those goods to the US.

Maybe you could offset the environmental impact of buying a Prius by not shopping at Walmart.

 

[desy]

It was part of the study
They look at all material transportation and even how far employees had to commute to the plant and how far cars had to travel to market. How far heavy nickel traveled was one of many factors

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: desy
It was part of the debunked and poorly executed study...nuff said.

fixed

 

[desy]

Did you read it?
Of course not
2 bit opinion for FTL

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: desy
Did you read it?
Of course not
2 bit opinion for FTL

I read every word, AND a number of the other articles that were written about it. Jules is right on both counts. What's sad is that they DID put a lot of work into covering every aspect of "environmental cost"...but the work was so cherry-picked and the assumptions so invalid that it was all for naught.

Assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is lazy and stupid FTL.

 

[desy]

Jules is lazy cause from his replies I can tell he didn't, so I didn't say you did? or did iI
No I didn't, and It was Jules whom I was responding too
I've merely pointed out there is a lot of merit in it and things that are specious as well, but to blanket and say its all crap is wrong as well and I've pointed out the flaws I see in it, hardly championing it.