YAHCT: Remember when obama promised us we could keep our own insurance?

[Hayabusa Rider]

and as long as he keeps pissing you Republicans off he is a Messiah :thumbsup:

Do I have your permission to change your user name to "Pyrrhic Victory"?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

4. There are so many variables and intangibles involved with reforming a system so massive and that affects so many people with so many pundits, experts, and politicians offering studies and reports screaming the bill is either the worst idea in the history of mankind or is exactly the reform we need leaves one unsure of the outcome.

#3 amuses me, however. Clearly since I'm not stomping my feet and declaring the bill to be the bane of all human existence I am a partisan hack.

Considering that those who voted hadn't a very good idea what was it was about there's a lot of room for criticism.

In effect the cry was "We need something done!" and the response was "We did something! (but please don't ask us what because we don't understand this very well)"

 

[bamacre]

I remember when Obama blasted Hillary Clinton in the debates because her health care reform plan included a mandate that people buy health insurance. Of course I remember a lot of things Obama said before he was elected.

 

[bamacre]

Do I have your permission to change your user name to "Pyrrhic Victory"?

If it "pisses off Republicans," he'll give you his blessing.

Using his logic, Bush was a great president because he "pissed off" so many Democrats. Sounds odd, sure, but he did vote for Bush, twice.

 

[CycloWizard]

4. There are so many variables and intangibles involved with reforming a system so massive and that affects so many people with so many pundits, experts, and politicians offering studies and reports screaming the bill is either the worst idea in the history of mankind or is exactly the reform we need leaves one unsure of the outcome.

#3 amuses me, however. Clearly since I'm not stomping my feet and declaring the bill to be the bane of all human existence I am a partisan hack.

Fair enough - I guess you fall under #1 or #2. Probably both. I never said this is the worst thing to happen to mankind, but only an idiot could think it will do anything to improve healthcare delivery in this country.

 

[child of wonder]

Fair enough - I guess you fall under #1 or #2. Probably both. I never said this is the worst thing to happen to mankind, but only an idiot could think it will do anything to improve healthcare delivery in this country.

So I either haven't read the bill or don't understand it, or I don't understand anything about healthcare or economics in general.

How gracious of you.

Why can't someone be on the fence about this? Why must I either love it or hate it?

 

[Turin39789]

So he said you could keep your plan, but the new laws have improvements like increased student/dependent age and no pre-existing condition clauses, and now that your old health plan is having these upgrades added on, you are outraged because you no longer have your old insurance?

Just making sure I understand your mindset.

 

[rudder]

So he said you could keep your plan, but the new laws have improvements like increased student/dependent age and no pre-existing condition clauses, and now that your old health plan is having these upgrades added on, you are outraged because you no longer have your old insurance?

Just making sure I understand your mindset.

RTFA

Then spend a few years in the real world and come back to me. Maybe then you might have an inkling of understanding of the issue at hand here.

 

[Turin39789]

RTFA

Then spend a few years in the real world and come back to me. Maybe then you might have an inkling of understanding of the issue at hand here.

I'll admit I didn't RTFA the first time.

Hopefully someday I will spend enough years in the world to understand these pesky health plan things.
The article doesn't say that

that due to obamacare... your employer will likely not be able to offer the same plan that you like so much...

It says that old plans could stay the same and avoid implementing the beter expanded coverage after HCR such as "benefit mandates, caps on out-of-pocket expenses and limits on age-based premiums" unless they started to charge the subscribers a larger coinsurance %, premium or reduces benefits.

So you can't avoid giving out the new benefits if you start to charge more because of the new benefits you aren't providing.

It does not mention that they cannot increase the premiums, only that the employer has to pay the same % of the new premiums they were paying before, coinsurance stays the same % and out of pocket maximums can be increased but are pegged to a medical inflation indicator.

And of course they were already planning on increasing premiums etc anyway, so the question becomes does it make sense to keep the plan in the same mold as before to avoid the benefits mandated by HCR or is it easier/cheaper to just switch all the plans over to the new regulations?

 

[CycloWizard]

So I either haven't read the bill or don't understand it, or I don't understand anything about healthcare or economics in general.

How gracious of you.

Why can't someone be on the fence about this? Why must I either love it or hate it?

I already told you why no rational person can be on the fence unless they haven't read/understood the bill.

 

[child of wonder]

I already told you why no rational person can be on the fence unless they haven't read/understood the bill.

Got it. Unless I agree with you I'm either stupid or ignorant.

 

[CycloWizard]

Got it. Unless I agree with you I'm either stupid or ignorant.

In this case, yes.

 

[child of wonder]

In this case, yes.

lol

You're priceless!

Do you have any instructional videos or CDs I can buy on how to be so amazingly awesome? I, too, want to be able to know the future with such certainty so I can put down more level headed people who aren't willing to rush to judgement on laws that haven't been enacted yet.

The Bill could be a complete and utter failure. I'm skeptical of it. But it is downright sad and pathetic that this nation is degenerating to a level of two sides, both saying "we're right and everyone else is wrong. If you don't agree with us you are uninformed or stupid."

Is this all we are? Knee jerk, mindless apes with less fur? Can we acheive any level of reasonable discourse or differences in opinion without resorting to an "us vs. them" mentality?

 

[CycloWizard]

lol

You're priceless!

Do you have any instructional videos or CDs I can buy on how to be so amazingly awesome? I, too, want to be able to know the future with such certainty so I can put down more level headed people who aren't willing to rush to judgement on laws that haven't been enacted yet.

The Bill could be a complete and utter failure. I'm skeptical of it. But it is downright sad and pathetic that this nation is degenerating to a level of two sides, both saying "we're right and everyone else is wrong. If you don't agree with us you are uninformed or stupid."

Is this all we are? Knee jerk, mindless apes with less fur? Can we acheive any level of reasonable discourse or differences in opinion without resorting to an "us vs. them" mentality?

People who think that both sides of a factual argument can be right are always wrong. You are entitled to your opinion, but I will call you ignorant or stupid if your opinion is in direct opposition to facts. Anyone with an eighth grade education, a rational mind, and a basic understanding of this bill should easily be able to evaluate its merits and deficits and come to this same conclusion. Your wishy-washy, "can't we all just get along?" attitude, while cute, does not apply here as we are not discussing a matter of opinion.

 

[Throckmorton]

RTFA

Then spend a few years in the real world and come back to me. Maybe then you might have an inkling of understanding of the issue at hand here.

Rudder, what part of existing plans not having to meet the new requirements don't you understand? Are you just not familiar with the concept of being "grandfathered in"?

 

[Pens1566]

Rudder, what part of existing plans not having to meet the new requirements don't you understand? Are you just not familiar with the concept of being "grandfathered in"?

Shhhh ... if he wants to keep his current crappy plan that doesn't have the bells and whistles that are now required then let him.

 

[Throckmorton]

Shhhh ... if he wants to keep his current crappy plan that doesn't have the bells and whistles that are now required then let him.

No, he thinks he won't be able to keep that plan, but he will because it's specifically written into the law.

 

[child of wonder]

People who think that both sides of a factual argument can be right are always wrong. You are entitled to your opinion, but I will call you ignorant or stupid if your opinion is in direct opposition to facts. Anyone with an eighth grade education, a rational mind, and a basic understanding of this bill should easily be able to evaluate its merits and deficits and come to this same conclusion. Your wishy-washy, "can't we all just get along?" attitude, while cute, does not apply here as we are not discussing a matter of opinion.

Your desperation to paint me as someone oppositional so you can hate me is painfully obvious.

My position on the bill is that it is too soon to tell whether it will be bad or good for the country. I have major concerns about the bill, specifically how it will affect the deficit and insurance premiums for those who have no trouble affording health insurance. However, because I won't flat out denounce the bill as terrible and fall in line with how you think, you begin salivating because you get to label me as "them" and call me "stupid" and "ignorant."

In no terms have I stated or implied that I think both sides are right. Again, you ignore what I say because it allows you to fuel your "outrage" by labeling me as someone in opposition to you.

Although I have my doubts, I hope the bill succeeds and doesn't plunge the nation into further financial ruin. But where we differ is that you know for a FACT it will, while I, despite my concerns, am reserving judgement until we get to see it in action.

If it gets you off, I can start talking about how I think bill is the best thing since sliced bread so you can continue to insult me and mentally masturbate all over yourself.

 

[theeedude]

Give up. I appreciate you posting in my thread as this is the purpose of the Politics & News forums... to engage in a lively debate. However, you bring a ridiculous argument to the table which has nothing to do with the subject. Your company switching insurance providers IS NOT the same as your employer not being able to provide any insurance or one that is completely different because of the regulations imposed by obamacare.

Personally I would rather have dmmcowen674 post in here saying he loves the messiah because he pisses of republicans. At least he understands he is an idiot... where you simply have no clue.

So basically you got nothing except personal attacks to refute my point that you probably can't keep your insurance coverage if you like it even without Obama-care?
That's what I thought.

 

[rudder]

Rudder, what part of existing plans not having to meet the new requirements don't you understand? Are you just not familiar with the concept of being "grandfathered in"?

Thats the rub. The companies are grandfathered in... but the leaked analysis reveals that upto 69% of employers will have to relinquish that "grandfathered" status. This is worst case... expected is 51% of employers will give up that status.

In order for businesses to keep health insurance coverage affordable they need to make changes. Companies can no longer do this. They lose their grandfather status if they do. Inflation alone will force companies to abandon that status. Companies won't be able to ask for increases in co-pays.

Consumer protections are fine... but what you and your ilk here fail to see is that obamacare does nothing to reign in healthcare costs. These new consumer protections will cost more money. Where do you think that money comes from? It is going to be cheaper for companies to pay the fine rather than offer health insurance.

One day you will accept the fact that obamacare is a dung heap. It is by design supposed to destroy the health insurance industry. It does nothing to save money (even the director of the CBO says it was all a lie). But hey... the democrats did it so it is okay!

Just bring on those obamacare anti-depressents... in bulk.

 

[Budmantom]

The only time Barry lies is when he speaks.

 

[CycloWizard]

Your desperation to paint me as someone oppositional so you can hate me is painfully obvious.

My position on the bill is that it is too soon to tell whether it will be bad or good for the country. I have major concerns about the bill, specifically how it will affect the deficit and insurance premiums for those who have no trouble affording health insurance. However, because I won't flat out denounce the bill as terrible and fall in line with how you think, you begin salivating because you get to label me as "them" and call me "stupid" and "ignorant."

In no terms have I stated or implied that I think both sides are right. Again, you ignore what I say because it allows you to fuel your "outrage" by labeling me as someone in opposition to you.

Although I have my doubts, I hope the bill succeeds and doesn't plunge the nation into further financial ruin. But where we differ is that you know for a FACT it will, while I, despite my concerns, am reserving judgement until we get to see it in action.

If it gets you off, I can start talking about how I think bill is the best thing since sliced bread so you can continue to insult me and mentally masturbate all over yourself.

I made no claim that you support the bill. Your position, as you have clearly stated, is that you don't think it's possible to tell whether the bill is good or not. Your position is wrong, as you would quickly find out if you meet the criteria stated above (i.e. having a rational mind and actually read the bill). But you haven't read it, have you? You can't admit that because then my argument regarding your ignorance of its content becomes indisputable and your entire position quickly crumbles. But, if you have read it, by all means say so.

 

[Throckmorton]

Thats the rub. The companies are grandfathered in... but the leaked analysis reveals that upto 69% of employers will have to relinquish that "grandfathered" status. This is worst case... expected is 51% of employers will give up that status.

In order for businesses to keep health insurance coverage affordable they need to make changes. Companies can no longer do this. They lose their grandfather status if they do. Inflation alone will force companies to abandon that status. Companies won't be able to ask for increases in co-pays.

Consumer protections are fine... but what you and your ilk here fail to see is that obamacare does nothing to reign in healthcare costs. These new consumer protections will cost more money. Where do you think that money comes from? It is going to be cheaper for companies to pay the fine rather than offer health insurance.

One day you will accept the fact that obamacare is a dung heap. It is by design supposed to destroy the health insurance industry. It does nothing to save money (even the director of the CBO says it was all a lie). But hey... the democrats did it so it is okay!

Just bring on those obamacare anti-depressents... in bulk.

So you're basically complaining that employers will choose to change your health insurance, just like they always could.

 

[rudder]

So basically you got nothing except personal attacks to refute my point that you probably can't keep your insurance coverage if you like it even without Obama-care?
That's what I thought.

Frankly your point is idiotic. If you work for someone else you are at their whim. If you want to keep the same policy, year after year, you can buy your own. I have been at m current job 5 years. My insurance options have changed. The original insurance company I had is no longer an option. I have kept the same doctor throughout. My costs have been adjusted for inflation. This IS NOT want the thread is about. Not even the same thing. Sorry for the personal attack, but damn when you are stupid on purpose.. what else is there.

Is this better... "If you like your employer subsidized healthcare plan provided by a multitude of companies which may or may not change based on economic conditions... you will no longer be able to get health care through your employer. Businesses will have no option but to either pay the fine or provide new policies whose costs will be driven up by a multitude of not so well thought out consumer protections."

I apologize, I can not make it any clearer.

RTFA stands for Read The Fucking Article.

 

[child of wonder]

I made no claim that you support the bill. Your position, as you have clearly stated, is that you don't think it's possible to tell whether the bill is good or not. Your position is wrong, as you would quickly find out if you meet the criteria stated above (i.e. having a rational mind and actually read the bill). But you haven't read it, have you? You can't admit that because then my argument regarding your ignorance of its content becomes indisputable and your entire position quickly crumbles. But, if you have read it, by all means say so.

People who think that both sides of a factual argument can be right are always wrong.

Have I read the entire bill word for word? No. Have I read overviews of the bill, listened to Senate debates and speeches about the bill from both sides, and read news articles from different sources (Fox, CNN, WSJ) about the bill? Yes.

I know... I know... I don't immediately step into line with what you think so if I have done some research about the bill then, obviously, I'm just far too dense and retarded to see things your way.