YaGunT: a .223 that doesnt frag is just an expensive .22?

[Specop 007]

And its well documented that when an object loses mass, it loses energy.

I am not even going to bother myself to back that statement up with links, find it yourself in google.

Properly designed bullets should do 1 of 2 things - mushroom, or tumble. Fragment should not be an option.

Then you know fuck all about terminal ballistics as it pertains to the 556. Which is fine. But the terminal ballistics of the 556 round go to shit when it doesnt fragment. Fuck, I think even Wiki discusses this fact as well as Ammo Oracle, DoJ testing docs, Army manuals....Basically the entire shooting industry except you.

ETA:

For the benefit of the other readers.....

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_m193orm855.html

Unlike most FMJ rounds, M193 and M855's primary wounding mechanism is fragmentation. This is a good thing because without fragmentation these rounds otherwise would act like a ice pick and cause very little damage because of their small size. At the proper velocity, both M855 and M193 strike flesh and immediately begin to yaw (tumble). Contrary to rumor and popular media belief, this is not unique to these rounds. All FMJ bullets with tapered noses will tumble in flesh with enough velocity, because their center of gravity is aft of their length center--causing them to want to travel "tail first" in denser mediums (like water and tissue).


http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_velocity.html

Testing by combat surgeon Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD (USA Medical Corps, retired), determined that M193 and M855 bullets need to strike flesh at 2,700 feet per second in order to reliably fragment. Between 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps, the bullet may or may not fragment and below 2,500 fps, no significant fragmentation is likely to occur. If there isn't enough velocity to cause fragmentation, the result is a deep, 22 caliber hole, except an area where the yawing occurred, where the diameter of the hole grows briefly to the length of the bullet.

 

[Texashiker]

When a bullet hits something (like a deer, hog, person), it will do one of three things:

Fragment - parts of the bullet break off, the bullet losses mass, depletes its energy, does not penetrate the internal organs and does not cause enough of an injury to quickly kill what was shot

Mushrooms - the bullet deforms, mushrooms, holds its mass and energy, penetrates the body cavity, causes internal injuries to the organs that whatever was shot dies.

Tumbles - the bullet retains its shape, mass and energy. The front of the bullet starts to slow down, the back of the bullet being heavier rolls over the front of the bullet and starts to tumble.

Do do NOT want a bullet fragmenting when it hits something.

A deer I took a few years ago with a 270

Then you know fuck all about terminal ballistics as it pertains to the 556. Which is fine. But the terminal ballistics of the 556 round go to shit when it doesnt fragment.

Testing by combat surgeon Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD (USA Medical Corps, retired), determined that M193 and M855 bullets need to strike flesh at 2,700 feet per second in order to reliably fragment. Between 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps, the bullet may or may not fragment and below 2,500 fps, no significant fragmentation is likely to occur.

Any bullet that relies on fragmentation to determine how lethal it is, is crap.

A few months ago in either field and stream or outdoor life, there was an article talking about how the 223 was not even effective on coyotes for an effective 1 shot kill.

Then you know fuck all about terminal ballistics as it pertains to the 556. Which is fine. But the terminal ballistics of the 556 round go to shit when it doesnt fragment. Fuck, I think even Wiki discusses this fact as well as Ammo Oracle, DoJ testing docs, Army manuals....Basically the entire shooting industry except you.

Except for the military, the shooting industry agrees that fragmentation is bad.

~~ EDIT ~~

From the quotes above, there is only a 200 fps difference between the 5.56mm fragmenting (2,700fps), and not fragmenting (2,500fps).

If the 223/5.56mm is anything like the 308, the bullet loses about 100 fps for every 1 inch of barrel length. When you get down to a 16 inch barrel, the bullet may not be traveling fast enough to fragment.

The 5.56mm was designed for a 20 inch barrel. Going from a 20 inch barrel to a 16 inch barrel, the bullet may lose around 400 fps (plus or minus a little bit).

 

[JJ650]

does someone think caliber = length or something?

small, basically sub-pistol round (imo anything less than .38 is 'varmint' ammo) versus long, pointy boat tail round that (ideally) kills a full-grown man in one shot to the vitals?

the ballistics are completely different.

and yes yes, we can get into 5.56 efficacy arguments, but since 7.62x39 is about the most powerful thing in common use anymore (as far as assault and/or battle rifles are concerned), that doesn't have too much place here.

only exception i can think of (in normal armed forces) might be some countries in eastern europe using G3's or FAL's or something in 7.62x51 (edit: surprise, it's more powerful than the ruskie ammo even though they both say '7.62'...)

It's still heavily used in US armanment (AR-15, M-14's but admittedly more often used for the mini-guns).
Yeah, the 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 are in the .30 cal family. The cartridge length of the 7.62NATO allows for more propellant which generally means more power.

 

[Specop 007]

When a bullet hits something (like a deer, hog, person), it will do one of three things:

Fragment - parts of the bullet break off, the bullet losses mass, depletes its energy, does not penetrate the internal organs and does not cause enough of an injury to quickly kill what was shot

Mushrooms - the bullet deforms, mushrooms, holds its mass and energy, penetrates the body cavity, causes internal injuries to the organs that whatever was shot dies.

Tumbles - the bullet retains its shape, mass and energy. The front of the bullet starts to slow down, the back of the bullet being heavier rolls over the front of the bullet and starts to tumble.

Do do NOT want a bullet fragmenting when it hits something.

A deer I took a few years ago with a 270

Any bullet that relies on fragmentation to determine how lethal it is, is crap.

A few months ago in either field and stream or outdoor life, there was an article talking about how the 223 was not even effective on coyotes for an effective 1 shot kill.

Except for the military, the shooting industry agrees that fragmentation is bad.

I didnt realize we were talking about hunting deer. In that case you're right, fragmenting bullets are bad juju. I wouldnt necessarily feel undergunned using one but I'd damn well rather have a good soft point.

If you cant put a coyote down with 1 shot using FMJ out of an AR then you probably shouldnt be shooting at animals, because you are a piss poor shot. No amount of bullet magic will save you.

The fragmentation is desirable for 556 because the military is restricted from using bullets which mushroom. The only way they get good terminal ballistics is through the use of fragmentation. Since the military usually shoots people they dont need to worry about 20 inches of thick bone and muscle before reaching internal organs. FBI states for a round to be adequate you need 12 inches of penetration. The 556 reaches that even when fragmenting, which makes it an ideal round.

You cant discuss terminal ballistics between 4 legged and 2 legged critters interchangeably. The requirements for one are vastly different than the requirements for another.

All things being equal I'll take a good aftermarket hunting bullet with lots of pepper behind it for my self defense. I have that choice though, the military does not. As such for 2 legger critters a bullet that fragments is the best choice.

 

[DayLaPaul]

Show me a .22lr round that can penetrate 1/4" of steel. Sure, M855 doesn't tumble as much as M193, but to say it is comparable to .22lr is pretty absurd. That is the comparison that you are trying to make, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dGxRw8Jq70

 

[AMCRambler]

FMJ dude. FMJ.

 

[Texashiker]

I didnt realize we were talking about hunting deer.

I think we were talking about 2 different things.

Seems you were talking about using the 223/5.56mm for combat, and I use my rifles for hunting.

When I shoot something, I want 2 holes - 1 small hole going in, and a larger hole going out.

My son shot a doe a couple of years ago with his 30-30. When we were skinning the deer, we found some of the copper jacket. But the mass of the bullet passed through both sides of the deer.

Given the restrictions on the military by various treaties, they do not have a "whole" lot of flexibility when it comes to bullets.

 

[Specop 007]

I think we were talking about 2 different things.

Seems you were talking about using the 223/5.56mm for combat, and I use my rifles for hunting.

When I shoot something, I want 2 holes - 1 small hole going in, and a larger hole going out.

My son shot a doe a couple of years ago with his 30-30. When we were skinning the deer, we found some of the copper jacket. But the mass of the bullet passed through both sides of the deer.

Given the restrictions on the military by various treaties, they do not have a "whole" lot of flexibility when it comes to bullets.

No harm, no foul.

I agree on the hole part. Many people seem to be attracted to the Ar for the low cost of ammo, which is invariably the milsurp FMJ stuff. As I said, given a choice it would be the last bullet type I would use for any type of serious work be it 2 or 4 legged. But it still does well enough on 2 legged varmints.

Hunting though gimme a nice soft point. I'm itching to try the Barnes solid copper bullets though.

heres my son after taking his first deer ever, a small button buck, using a 44 lever action and Hornady Leverevolution ammo.