YAGT: Stand your ground law...

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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
I don't know why you 'quote' my interaction, as if it hasn't existed. As I mentioned, I'm fairly certain I have more experience with this subject than most in this thread. My opinion is not based on reading things on the internet, but interacting with literally hundreds, if not thousands of CCW holders.

You saying you are a member of a gun forum?
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
You saying you are a member of a gun forum?

I am, but not basing my interactions off of that. I am basing it off of phone conversations, meeting in person and gun shows and CCW classes, at gun stores or gun ranges.
 
Feb 19, 2001
20,158
20
81
I think the OP does bring in some good points though. If you do carry a weapon, you should be held to a higher standard. You have the ability to end someone's life right then and there. Even if they are wrong, you're taking a life, and without a doubt it's going to hold a huge place in your mind killing someone regardless of how justified you are.

When people start fights at the bar, unless you're directly involved, GTFO. If a fight breaks out and someone bumps into you, you have a choice to get out of the way and let the idiots fight, or you can jump in there being macho and pull out your gun and escalate the fight. Sorry, but if it were me, I'd get out of there. The point is why fight unless you have to?

I'm not saying you need to retreat to the closet of your house when someone breaks in, but I think if you can make a REASONABLE attempt to diffuse the situation or GTFO, do it. It's just like the boating analogy of CLite. Even take driving for example. When someone runs a red, you make an effort to dodge that car if its about to hit you. You obviously could just take the hit and then sue the fuck out of the guy because he's wrong. But in many accidents it's never ruled 0% your fault. It's like 70/30 or 80/20 or 60/40, 50/50, etc.

Anyway, I do think that before you pull your gun in self defense that you should be certain that you are in grave danger, but at the same time I don't mean that you should let the perp stab you before you decide to pull your gun. There's logical limits. When fights break out, if you escalate with your weapon, chances are someone's going to get hurt, especially if the other side doesn't back down. Thus, before you pull your weapon, you should probably make sure that its the only way out of the situation (obviously without putting yourself at severe risk).
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
And... I might add... The CA resident can still be sued in civil court for wounding the perp or for wrongful death by the perp's family... even if ruled in self defense.... and that is after the costs of the attorney for the self defense guidance.

Right now if I shoot and or kill someone in self defense... In NC I can look at Thousands in legal fees until it is ruled self defense... and that is what is wrong with the system.


'Ex turpi causa non oritur actio', Is a doctrine that sorta means no action can be brought if it relates to an illegal act. (more or less)

I'm sure someone somewhere has won a case that arose from a person in the commission of an illegal act having a civil wrong done to him...
OR the law of torts is not in sync with Criminal Law as it applies to all situations. So I can't... or won't argue that either way.


Yes, the cost of defending oneself is a costly endeavor... BUT, one can always go Pro Se... if your not indigent or rich.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
I am, but not basing my interactions off of that. I am basing it off of phone conversations, meeting in person and gun shows and CCW classes, at gun stores or gun ranges.

so you are counting people just because they were at the 'gun show' with you?

jesus.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
I think the OP does bring in some good points though. If you do carry a weapon, you should be held to a higher standard. You have the ability to end someone's life right then and there. Even if they are wrong, you're taking a life, and without a doubt it's going to hold a huge place in your mind killing someone regardless of how justified you are.

When people start fights at the bar, unless you're directly involved, GTFO. If a fight breaks out and someone bumps into you, you have a choice to get out of the way and let the idiots fight, or you can jump in there being macho and pull out your gun and escalate the fight. Sorry, but if it were me, I'd get out of there. The point is why fight unless you have to?

I'm not saying you need to retreat to the closet of your house when someone breaks in, but I think if you can make a REASONABLE attempt to diffuse the situation or GTFO, do it. It's just like the boating analogy of CLite. Even take driving for example. When someone runs a red, you make an effort to dodge that car if its about to hit you. You obviously could just take the hit and then sue the fuck out of the guy because he's wrong. But in many accidents it's never ruled 0% your fault. It's like 70/30 or 80/20 or 60/40, 50/50, etc.

Anyway, I do think that before you pull your gun in self defense that you should be certain that you are in grave danger, but at the same time I don't mean that you should let the perp stab you before you decide to pull your gun. There's logical limits. When fights break out, if you escalate with your weapon, chances are someone's going to get hurt, especially if the other side doesn't back down. Thus, before you pull your weapon, you should probably make sure that its the only way out of the situation (obviously without putting yourself at severe risk).

Dude for one, most aren't going to pull their gun because someone bumped them.

Two, most people cannot carry their gun into a bar.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
This thread is perfect evidence of that, by people stating they would draw and shoot someone who is simply verbally abusive to them ...

...People in this thread are stating that, given ANY physical confrontation, they should have a right to shoot and kill someone else.

LOLwut!?!? Who in this thread has said they would shoot someone simply from a verbal assault? Or ANY physical confrontation. I don't think you are going to be able to find those quote, and if you do it's going to be some extreme over exaggeration, and full of spin.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
0
LOLwut!?!? Who in this thread has said they would shoot someone simply from a verbal assault? Or ANY physical confrontation. I don't think you are going to be able to find those quote, and if you do it's going to be some extreme over exaggeration, and full of spin.

To be fair, I've said the second multiple times. Granted, I fit your 'extreme' definition, but I DO believe I should be able to shoot someone rather than suffer even a bruise.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
0
Dude for one, most aren't going to pull their gun because someone bumped them.

Two, most people cannot carry their gun into a bar.

Actually carry in bars is perfectly legal in a high number of states. I don't have my data with me, but it's something like 25 or 30 states. Might even be higher than that now.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
so you are counting people just because they were at the 'gun show' with you?

jesus.


Where did I say I am counting them because they were at the same show? I WORKED with these people, on a daily basis. I talked to them, in depth conversations. I observed them taking their CCW classes. I talked at length with gun store owners, trainers, students, potential students, people curious about the law etc...

I do not count people that were in the same room as me. I am talking about people I had meaningful conversations with regarding the specifics of guns and carrying concealed.


..... jesus.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
LOLwut!?!? Who in this thread has said they would shoot someone simply from a verbal assault? Or ANY physical confrontation. I don't think you are going to be able to find those quote, and if you do it's going to be some extreme over exaggeration, and full of spin.


Prince has admitted to it.

Let me add one more point. In my experience, CCW holders that utilize forums and the internet in general are much more logical, intelligent and less.... I guess emotional and passionate (trying to find the right words to describe it) about their ability to utilize their weapon.


There is a huge percentage of CCW holders who do not even use the internet. Generally speaking, I've seen a lot more extreme opinions, ideologies and viewpoints on when/where/how they will use their weapon.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Prince has admitted to it.

Right, he also noted that it fell into the over reaching exaggeration column.

Generally speaking, I've seen a lot more extreme opinions, ideologies and viewpoints on when/where/how they will use their weapon.

I am assuming you mean you've seen them in real life ...unfortunately, I do not believe you. If so they also fit into the over exaggeration group. Even if you've seen two hundred people that act like that, which I do not believe is anywhere close to reality, that is still not even a worth-mentioning sample of CCW permits holders.
 

Oceanas

Senior member
Nov 23, 2006
263
0
76

Here is the other side of the story. Keep in mind that what Rosenbloom is saying about the police investigation, or lack thereof, may or may not have occurred the way he says it did. Much like his version of events may or may not be totally correct.

So those reports show that out of all the crimes committed only .5 percent (or whatever, depending on the category) were committed by a CCW holder. Seems like a low number, but not when you consider the fact that only 1.8% of Texas has CCW's. So of ALL the citizens, only 1.8% can even fall within this category. Of course the number is going to be low. You don't have that many people, relatively speaking, that could even commit a crime and fall within that report.

Well, let's take your 1.8% number (although I don't know if you are speaking of 1.8% of the total population or 1.8% of the adult population) and apply it using the 2010 census numbers (25,145,561 total population or 18,280,823 over 18 population). That's 452,620 (total pop) or 329,055 (adult only pop) CCW holders. If we subtract them from the census population numbers, and subtract their 101 convictions from the total convictions, we get .27% of the total, non-ccw holding population were convicted, or .37% of the total adult, non-ccw holding population. (Keep in mind there is a missing gap since the conviction reports are for over 21, while the census population is over 18. This causes the percentage listed to be lower by some amount than it actually is). Amongst CCW holders, .02% (using 452,620) or .03% (using 329,055) were convicted.

*Keep in mind that the total population does not exclude those who cannot or do not own a gun nor can it account for the actual number of people who would have a gun and be in a position to commit the listed crimes but, since we know that not everyone owns a gun, the percentage of convictions compared to the total # of non-ccw gun owners (or possessors) would be some number higher than what is listed.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Right, he also noted that it fell into the over reaching exaggeration column.



I am assuming you mean you've seen them in real life ...unfortunately, I do not believe you. If so they also fit into the over exaggeration group. Even if you've seen two hundred people that act like that, which I do not believe is anywhere close to reality, that is still not even a worth-mentioning sample of CCW permits holders.



Don't believe I've met them, or don't believe the opinion I have of them? Either way, I guess there's nothing I can do about that *shrugs*

But to clarify, yes I meant met in real life, or at least spoken to on the phone.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Where did I say I am counting them because they were at the same show? I WORKED with these people, on a daily basis. I talked to them, in depth conversations. I observed them taking their CCW classes. I talked at length with gun store owners, trainers, students, potential students, people curious about the law etc...

I do not count people that were in the same room as me. I am talking about people I had meaningful conversations with regarding the specifics of guns and carrying concealed.


..... jesus.

1,000's?
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71

Maybe 1000. Definitely 100's, possibly over 1000. Hard to say. I'll put it like this, our company was training roughly 100-200 people a week, depending on business. I did not talk to all of these people, but I did talk to many of them. Some via phone, some in classes, some via email. I also administered surveys to these customers on a variety of topics that gave me a bit more insight than normal. In a nutshell though, I dealt with these people on a daily basis. A lot of them. Not to mention all the other CCW holders related to the business that I dealt with for other reasons outside of training.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Maybe 1000. Definitely 100's, possibly over 1000. Hard to say. I'll put it like this, our company was training roughly 100-200 people a week, depending on business. I did not talk to all of these people, but I did talk to many of them. Some via phone, some in classes, some via email. I also administered surveys to these customers on a variety of topics that gave me a bit more insight than normal. In a nutshell though, I dealt with these people on a daily basis. A lot of them. Not to mention all the other CCW holders related to the business that I dealt with for other reasons outside of training.

Perhaps it was the training your company offered that attracted a certain type of guy owner.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Perhaps it was the training your company offered that attracted a certain type of guy owner.

lol. Is that what you're really going to go with?

We trained all demographics. Male/Female. Young/Adult. City/Country. I have interacted with all the different sub-sections you could probably think of. With one exception. We didn't do much advanced training, at least not while I was with the company. So I didn't deal with a ton of people who had training beyond their basic CCW.

But, I think we can all agree there aren't that many CCW holders that have advanced training. Most of them have taken a basic class and gone to the shooting range a few times. On the high end of the spectrum they are former hunters. Unfortunately, none of that does a whole lot for the decision making process and abiding by the complex firearms laws of each state.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
i dont know of anyone that had gotten a CCW and corresponded with their teachers via phone and email, yet alone support staff.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
i dont know of anyone that had gotten a CCW and corresponded with their teachers via phone and email, yet alone support staff.

You also didn't work in the business, did you?


Students would call to register for classes all the time. A LOT of them would have questions about the process, requirements for that particular state, whether or not they were eligible to get a permit etc...

Obviously the students interacted with the instructors DURING the class. (Although I am not an instructor, I observed many classes and spoke with people before/during/after classes).

In terms of email communication, mostly it was done via surveys, which I would say I probably received ~50 results a week from. Granted, this communication alone won't allow me to form any meaningful opinion about the temperament etc... of a typical CCW holder, it did allow me to understand demographics, training levels, future intentions etc...

In addition, I dealt with a lot of trainers, owners of gun related businesses and people whom just struck up a conversation about CCW when they found out that was the line of business I was in.


The reason you probably don't know many CCW holders who have communicated with their instructors etc... is because most instructors are Jane and Dick who are training students out of their backyard. Hence part of my problem with the training. The typical trainer for CCW SUCKS. Even of the ones that are 'good', they still don't provide even CLOSE to the adequate training I feel is needed to responsibly carry a weapon, just enough to legally be allowed to do so. And the vast majority of people do not follow up with any additional training, in particular knowing the laws, their legal rights/limits and conditioning themselves to respond responsibly in a negative situation.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,456
854
126
I think the OP does bring in some good points though. If you do carry a weapon, you should be held to a higher standard. You have the ability to end someone's life right then and there. Even if they are wrong, you're taking a life, and without a doubt it's going to hold a huge place in your mind killing someone regardless of how justified you are.

When people start fights at the bar, unless you're directly involved, GTFO. If a fight breaks out and someone bumps into you, you have a choice to get out of the way and let the idiots fight, or you can jump in there being macho and pull out your gun and escalate the fight. Sorry, but if it were me, I'd get out of there. The point is why fight unless you have to?

I'm not saying you need to retreat to the closet of your house when someone breaks in, but I think if you can make a REASONABLE attempt to diffuse the situation or GTFO, do it. It's just like the boating analogy of CLite. Even take driving for example. When someone runs a red, you make an effort to dodge that car if its about to hit you. You obviously could just take the hit and then sue the fuck out of the guy because he's wrong. But in many accidents it's never ruled 0% your fault. It's like 70/30 or 80/20 or 60/40, 50/50, etc.

Anyway, I do think that before you pull your gun in self defense that you should be certain that you are in grave danger, but at the same time I don't mean that you should let the perp stab you before you decide to pull your gun. There's logical limits. When fights break out, if you escalate with your weapon, chances are someone's going to get hurt, especially if the other side doesn't back down. Thus, before you pull your weapon, you should probably make sure that its the only way out of the situation (obviously without putting yourself at severe risk).

What standard is that exactly? As far as I can tell it is as simple as paying a fee in many states, submitting to a background check, and taking a couple safety classes... and those are the stringent ones. Barely more than getting your driver's license. In fact, I'd argue that I spent far far far more time in driver's ed than any CCW holder in this country has spent in training to get a CCW license.

Christ, I spent 2 entire days in classes (classroom and actual riding instruction) just to get my motorcycle endorsement. Some states have no requirements for CCW.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
What standard is that exactly? As far as I can tell it is as simple as paying a fee in many states, submitting to a background check, and taking a couple safety classes... and those are the stringent ones. Barely more than getting your driver's license. In fact, I'd argue that I spent far far far more time in driver's ed than any CCW holder in this country has spent in training to get a CCW license.

Christ, I spent 2 entire days in classes (classroom and actual riding instruction) just to get my motorcycle endorsement. Some states have no requirements for CCW.


And that's part of the problem. Of course CCW holders argue that it is a right to have their weapon, which I agree with to a certain extent. Many of them complain they even have to take a class.


Personally, I think its crazy that it is MUCH easier to get a CCW permit than it is a Drivers License. Even in the most strict states.
 

Merad

Platinum Member
May 31, 2010
2,586
19
81
Haven't read and don't intend to read the thread (tl;dr). Gun owner. CHL holder.

IMO - stand your ground is fine. But, if you provoke or initiate the conflict, you should immediately lose the option to use your gun in self defense. Period.
 

etrigan420

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2007
1,723
1
71
What standard is that exactly? As far as I can tell it is as simple as paying a fee in many states, submitting to a background check, and taking a couple safety classes... and those are the stringent ones. Barely more than getting your driver's license. In fact, I'd argue that I spent far far far more time in driver's ed than any CCW holder in this country has spent in training to get a CCW license.

Christ, I spent 2 entire days in classes (classroom and actual riding instruction) just to get my motorcycle endorsement. Some states have no requirements for CCW.

I paid $55 and submitted my fingerprints. 29 days later...voila! I'm not entirely sure that I agree with our system, but there it is.

Not entirely sure how I feel about SYG either...