YAGT: A bit of a speech I suppose...

[swimscubasteve]

This thread originally started as a lengthy response to a question posed in this thread. The question being:

But has anyone found a way to be less concerned with a girl's looks?

I found the question quite interesting as it seems to exhibit a frustration found in men that usually only exists on a sub-conscious level. So I started to formulate a reply which only became longer and longer and then I remembered reading this asinine thread started by Airsofter (please, someone school that kid) and I began to think that my post might deserve its own thread. Anyway here is my response to the above question:

"I think you have asked a very interesting question that does not get asked nearly enough. It was one that I had to ask myself after I realized how deranged my tastes in "beauty" were. In other words, I used to think that what the zeitgeist considered hot, was hot. I'm talking thin, tall, perfect tits, nice ass, no cellulite etc... I came to a point with one of my exes where I realized my self-worth was actually being affected by her looks. I came to the conclusion that the shallowness I was exhibiting was not reflective of the person I wanted to be.

What I found was that the key to the entire problem was not to look at it as an issue of taste but rather of maturity. There is so much more to a woman than how much cellulite she has on her thighs or how big her breasts are. So much effort is spent by men (myself included) on comparing the women we are interested in to others and by letting what we "possess" determine our self-worth.

So to answer your question, don't try to be less concerned with a girl's looks as that will only result in you trying to deceive yourself. Instead, honestly ask yourself what is important and what you really care about. If you determine that you need a super hot girl to get it up, than that is what you need. Rather, if you realize that you really just need that super hot girl to satisfy your own ego, work on your sense self-worth and your concern over a girl's looks will naturally fade away and you will develop a more rounded sense of respect for women.

Also, realize that the images men are bombarded with everyday are not at all reflective of most women's bodies.

So, in conclusion, I would like to say that I don't think it's in any way wrong to date a hot chick. I just think that it might be slightly detrimental to one's own happiness to believe that they MUST date someone who SOCIETY considers to be beautiful.

The end.

 

[SViper]

This is a very well thought-out post. I commend you on saying what many other people think. Unfortunately in our society (Western), value is placed on outward appearances. I can't speak for other cultures because I was born and raised an American. I don't know if other put as much value on outward appearance as we do.

That being said, I do the same thing myself. I allowed society to dictate to me what is attractive in a woman. To my detriment(sp?), I know I missed out on a lot of great women because they didn't fit the 36-24-36 mold. As I grow older and mature (I'm 22 now), I begin to realize that physical appearance shouldn't be the end all to make or break relationship choices. Don't get me wrong, I think that you have to be physically attracted to your partner, but it's what we perceive as a society as physically attractive that has become skewed. I've seen personally some women who look anorexic because they try to fit the mold.

I haven't made it there yet, but I'm slowly getting to the point where I judge a woman on the content of her character as I grow older. Of course, if we as a society don't move there, it will all be for naught.

Anyway, that's my $.02 on the subject.

 

[lightweight]

Guys that say that looks don't matter, don't have what it takes to get hot chicks. Sure personality is important, but it's only one thing that comes in the entire package. Guys that have their lives together, can attract women who are beautiful in appearance, and also have THEIR lives together (intelligent, socially savvy, etc). Also, I fail to understand why having a female that is beautiful is deterimental to your own happiness.

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: lightweight
Guys that say that looks don't matter, don't have what it takes to get hot chicks. Sure personality is important, but it's only one thing that comes in the entire package. Guys that have their lives together, can attract women who are beautiful in appearance, and also have THEIR lives together (intelligent, socially savvy, etc). Also, I fail to understand why having a female that is beautiful is deterimental to your own happiness.

I tend to agree with you. Looks aren't everything, but they sure are something. And besides, I put quite a bit of effort into maintaining my outward appearance. Why shouldn't I expect the same from women I date? Does that make me shallow? Or does it mean I want a women who isn't content to look merely average?

 

[JS80]

Is it just me or does anyone else not have the attention span to finish reading thoroughly the first couple posts?

 

[lightweight]

Originally posted by: JS80
Is it just me or does anyone else not have the attention span to finish reading thoroughly the first couple posts?

It's just you, lazy ass. Move along.

 

[lightweight]

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: lightweight
Guys that say that looks don't matter, don't have what it takes to get hot chicks. Sure personality is important, but it's only one thing that comes in the entire package. Guys that have their lives together, can attract women who are beautiful in appearance, and also have THEIR lives together (intelligent, socially savvy, etc). Also, I fail to understand why having a female that is beautiful is deterimental to your own happiness.

I tend to agree with you. Looks aren't everything, but they sure are something. And besides, I put quite a bit of effort into maintaining my outward appearance. Why shouldn't I expect the same from women I date? Does that make me shallow? Or does it mean I want a women who isn't content to look merely average?

I'd eliminate any feelings you might have of being shallow. There is nothing wrong with having standards and sticking by them.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: lightweight

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: lightweight
Guys that say that looks don't matter, don't have what it takes to get hot chicks. Sure personality is important, but it's only one thing that comes in the entire package. Guys that have their lives together, can attract women who are beautiful in appearance, and also have THEIR lives together (intelligent, socially savvy, etc). Also, I fail to understand why having a female that is beautiful is deterimental to your own happiness.

I tend to agree with you. Looks aren't everything, but they sure are something. And besides, I put quite a bit of effort into maintaining my outward appearance. Why shouldn't I expect the same from women I date? Does that make me shallow? Or does it mean I want a women who isn't content to look merely average?

I'd eliminate any feelings you might have of being shallow. There is nothing wrong with having standards and sticking by them.

:thumbsup:

I don't go by "hot" or a specific set of standards, I go by if I'm attracted to them or not. Personally, I'm not attracted to 90lbs twigs who need to go eat a few hamburgers and a protein shake; nor am I attracted to the other extreme. I have a pretty wide range of body types and "measurements" that I find attractive. That said, I got lucky and found someone who is definitely in the "hot" category of my own preferences, but who is also a great person to be involved in a serious relationship with. Were I single again, and when I was single, I must say though that looks did initially dictate if I were to be interested in pursuing someone. I have no interest in forming a romantic relationship if I'm not attracted to the person; sex is a fun and very necessary part of a relationship for me

Reminds me of a girl I know. She was friends with this guy who was clearly interested in her, and she liked him a lot as a person. But he was pretty chunky (not that bad IMO, but what do I know) and she wasn't attracted to him. Well he lost a lot of weight and was at the gym a lot, now she's attracted to him and they're dating happily. I don't see anything wrong with that personally.

 

[swimscubasteve]

Originally posted by: lightweight
Guys that say that looks don't matter, don't have what it takes to get hot chicks. Sure personality is important, but it's only one thing that comes in the entire package. Guys that have their lives together, can attract women who are beautiful in appearance, and also have THEIR lives together (intelligent, socially savvy, etc). Also, I fail to understand why having a female that is beautiful is deterimental to your own happiness.

I think you may be missing my point. I never said that looks don't matter. They do. I am pointing out that it might beneficial to understand WHY a specific look matters to YOU.

Also, of course "having a female that is beautiful" is not detrimental to one's happiness. I am suggesting that HAVING TO HAVE a female that is beautiful might be detrimental to one's happiness.

Subjective tastes (food, religion, beauty, pleasure, etc...) are for the most part formulated by our environments. I am suggesting that it might be good to know why you have the tastes that you do and to question and challenge them so that you can become a more worldly person.

 

[Azurik]

Originally posted by: swimscubasteve
Also, realize that the images men are bombarded with everyday are not at all reflective of most women's bodies.

Blame that on an unhealthy diet and poor exercise routine.

Women should look like the images men are bombarded with!

Whose with me?!?!

 

[imported_Rad]

I tend to agree that there is nothing wrong with wanting a very attractive girlfriend, but at the same time, isnt attractiveness relative to each person's tastes? I think what the OP is trying to get at is that you shouldnt go looking for what society TELLS us is hot, but what you, yourself think is attractive. Women tend to be more open to that fact because let's face it, how many times have we seen a "9" going out with a guy who is a "5"? It rarely goes the other way around. I for one know what i like in a girl both physically and emotionally, and im sure its not the same as every person on this board, and that's ok wth me.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: swimscubasteve

Originally posted by: lightweight
Guys that say that looks don't matter, don't have what it takes to get hot chicks. Sure personality is important, but it's only one thing that comes in the entire package. Guys that have their lives together, can attract women who are beautiful in appearance, and also have THEIR lives together (intelligent, socially savvy, etc). Also, I fail to understand why having a female that is beautiful is deterimental to your own happiness.

I think you may be missing my point. I never said that looks don't matter. They do. I am pointing out that it might beneficial to understand WHY a specific look matters to YOU.

Also, of course "having a female that is beautiful" is not detrimental to one's happiness. I am suggesting that HAVING TO HAVE a female that is beautiful might be detrimental to one's happiness.

Subjective tastes (food, religion, beauty, pleasure, etc...) are for the most part formulated by our environments. I am suggesting that it might be good to know why you have the tastes that you do and to question and challenge them so that you can become a more worldly person.

I'm going to have to say beauty isn't subjective, at least not for the most part. When I find someone I label attractive, 95% of all the people I know agree with me. I think this is because there _is_ a standard of beauty....and its largely related to the 1:1.61 ratio. I know you can pick some number and find it everywhere, but of the animals and people I consider the "most attractive" or "cute", the 1:1.61 ratio is especially prevalent.

Also, I've always been rather visually oriented....I'd see a cat walk by, and I'd smile, or I'd see someone smiling at me, and I'd smile, or I'd look at the wall and see the texture of the wood and it'd make me smile....so I don't think its society telling me that I find [said woman] beautiful. Its just that my ideas of beauty and society's ideas line up pretty closely.

As far as what Rad said, I think I'm with him, to some extend. I plan to keep an in shape body for my wife, because I think that matters, and because when she looks at me, I want her to think "dang, he's really good looking". So I'm going to frequent the gym and swim and make sure I'm attractive...because I want to be that way. On top of that, I'm going to be the major provider of the household. When I come home from work, I'm going to be the dad, and will be parenting. When the kids go to bed and its just me and my wife, I'm going to be the Romeo. So when a girl pipes up and says "I just want my man to love me for who I am, and not be concerned with my looks", I immediately cross her off my list. Why? Because a relationship is a sacrifice. I want to be as good a husband as I possibly can be to her. So is it really that much to ask her to be able to run 3 miles in 20 minutes or swim for an hour straight with me at the gym? I think not, and if she doesn't think the same then she obviously isn't going to value her husband that much, and so she's not going to be worth my time. Simultaneously, there're going to be things she wants me to do, and I plan to do them, because I'm her husband. So I expect her (within reason....there's a line between expecting her to be attractive and then being the best man I can be for her...) to remain attractive and not get lazy and gain weight. I hope that's not too much to ask.

 

[swimscubasteve]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: swimscubasteve

Originally posted by: lightweight
Guys that say that looks don't matter, don't have what it takes to get hot chicks. Sure personality is important, but it's only one thing that comes in the entire package. Guys that have their lives together, can attract women who are beautiful in appearance, and also have THEIR lives together (intelligent, socially savvy, etc). Also, I fail to understand why having a female that is beautiful is deterimental to your own happiness.

I think you may be missing my point. I never said that looks don't matter. They do. I am pointing out that it might beneficial to understand WHY a specific look matters to YOU.

Also, of course "having a female that is beautiful" is not detrimental to one's happiness. I am suggesting that HAVING TO HAVE a female that is beautiful might be detrimental to one's happiness.

Subjective tastes (food, religion, beauty, pleasure, etc...) are for the most part formulated by our environments. I am suggesting that it might be good to know why you have the tastes that you do and to question and challenge them so that you can become a more worldly person.

I'm going to have to say beauty isn't subjective, at least not for the most part. When I find someone I label attractive, 95% of all the people I know agree with me. I think this is because there _is_ a standard of beauty....and its largely related to the 1:1.61 ratio. I know you can pick some number and find it everywhere, but of the animals and people I consider the "most attractive" or "cute", the 1:1.61 ratio is especially prevalent.

Also, I've always been rather visually oriented....I'd see a cat walk by, and I'd smile, or I'd see someone smiling at me, and I'd smile, or I'd look at the wall and see the texture of the wood and it'd make me smile....so I don't think its society telling me that I find [said woman] beautiful. Its just that my ideas of beauty and society's ideas line up pretty closely.

As far as what Rad said, I think I'm with him, to some extend. I plan to keep an in shape body for my wife, because I think that matters, and because when she looks at me, I want her to think "dang, he's really good looking". So I'm going to frequent the gym and swim and make sure I'm attractive...because I want to be that way. On top of that, I'm going to be the major provider of the household. When I come home from work, I'm going to be the dad, and will be parenting. When the kids go to bed and its just me and my wife, I'm going to be the Romeo. So when a girl pipes up and says "I just want my man to love me for who I am, and not be concerned with my looks", I immediately cross her off my list. Why? Because a relationship is a sacrifice. I want to be as good a husband as I possibly can be to her. So is it really that much to ask her to be able to run 3 miles in 20 minutes or swim for an hour straight with me at the gym? I think not, and if she doesn't think the same then she obviously isn't going to value her husband that much, and so she's not going to be worth my time. Simultaneously, there're going to be things she wants me to do, and I plan to do them, because I'm her husband. So I expect her (within reason....there's a line between expecting her to be attractive and then being the best man I can be for her...) to remain attractive and not get lazy and gain weight. I hope that's not too much to ask.

I would have to disagree and agree at the same time. Yes, our society produces an objective standard of beauty (which is why all your friends will agree that someone is hot or not). That standard however is meaningless when seen in a global or "human" light. There is certainly no genetic predisposition for liking skinny girls (there may be one for proportional features though). In fact, if anything, there would most likely be a predisposition for preferring women with some meat on their bones as they would be most likely to survive and bear children.

Azurik said

Blame that on an unhealthy diet and poor exercise routine

This is simply false. The bodies of the "hot" women that we see in the media are most likely undernourished. Also, I think saying things like "Women should look like the images men are bombarded with", which are not at all uncommon statements can be very damaging to a woman's self-image. Some (most) women could work out all day long while eating a healthy diet and never attain a body like the ones they see in the media. This is for sure a partial cause of the extremely high prevalence of eating disorders among young women.

I am in no way saying that obesity or unhealthiness should be excused. At the same time I think it is unwise and damaging to both men and women to celebrate starvation and unhealthy body images.

 

[torpid]

People are confusing being unconcerned with being less concerned. It is desirable to be LESS concerned with looks, because other attributes are also very important. I would not want to date someone who is physically appealing but intellectually absent. I often find people who I find physically attractive are not as attractive to most others. I remember in college a girl two doors down was physically beautiful to me, and I could never understand why my friends found her truly ugly. Of course, her personality sucked anyway.

 

[scootermaster]

You people are sorta missing the point. There's nothing wrong with any sort of external (or interal) criteria when it comes to picking a mate.

Think about it this way: Is there anything wrong with wanting to date a Christian? Or a Jew? Or a Mormon? Or someone lefthanded?

Most people would say that wanting someone of the same faith makes sense, as it'd mean similar values (and perhaps culture), it makes child raising easier, etc etc. But what about left handed? Well, in reality, if that's really important to you, it's really important to you.

There's nothing wrong with valuing certain attributes when picking a mate, it's just that some make more sense than others, and some are going to leave you with more options than others. Obviously, if you're Jewish, and really want/need a Jewish mate, now you're talking about a smaller sector of the population. In other words, you're just hurting yourself when you get too specific. But that doesn't mean it's wrong.

If you want a 5'10", 125 pound, blonde, blue-eyed, 34 DD girl who makes six figures and is a member of Mensa...awesome! You've firmly established your wants and desires, and that's a big part of establishing who you are as a person. Now, granted, you're probably going to be sorely disappointed when you realize that that person will never in a million years want you...and you know why? That person probably has their own standards themselves, and you, my friend, don't meet them. But there's nothing wrong with that either, is there?

Now, you could say in a "perfect world", it shouldn't matter. But why not? Because it keeps people from seeing the "true inner beauty" of other people? How so? We make choices based on aestetics all the time, so why not in something as important as a mate? If you think about it, in this "perfect world" (which to me is nothing of the sort), NOTHING would matter. Not race, or religeon, or left-handedness or anything else. Well, what about personality? Should that matter?

Now, people will say, well, you take as an ["obvious"] given that personality should matter. And then they'll say that things like religeon (and even race) effect personality, so therefore they're important too. But doens't appearance effect personality (and vice versa?). It really makes as much sense as trying to eliminate sight or smell or taste from food. All three matter. YOu want something that tastes good, smells good, and looks appealing. You could take one of those away, but why would you want to? And who is to say which is more "primary" or "central" to the issue of eating? You'd guess taste, obviously, but everyone knows that something that smells good and is presented well will "taste" much better than the same thing slopily presented. So perhaps taste isn't quite the central point that it might seem. So which is more important?

Sorry for being so lengthy.

Cliffs notes:
1). Who the eff cares what your criteria are?!?
2). Your criteria are your own, and you shouldn't worry about them
3). If your criteria is "superficial" (by other people's standards), who cares?
4). All your doing is cutting down your choices by having stringent criteria. If you can deal with the consequences, everyone else should do. If you can't, relax them. Simple as that.

 

[skace]

I like when people say "society says this" like society is some sort of secret illuminati that is trying to keep the sheep in line. Society is majority vote. If society thinks skinny girls with big breasts are hot, that is because the majority of men get woodies from said depiction of females. A lot of what "society says" for women and men is simply about being healthy. Neither overweight nor underweight is as hot as a sleek, toned body. This is a given. Good teeth? Given. Clean skin? Given. They should stop calling it being hot and call it being healthy, because that is really what it is. Men and women subconciously look for the healthiest mate they can find, healthy = long life = attractive to us as at a base level.

 

[imported_Rad]

Originally posted by: skace
I like when people say "society says this" like society is some sort of secret illuminati that is trying to keep the sheep in line. Society is majority vote. If society thinks skinny girls with big breasts are hot, that is because the majority of men get woodies from said depiction of females. A lot of what "society says" for women and men is simply about being healthy. Neither overweight nor underweight is as hot as a sleek, toned body. This is a given. Good teeth? Given. Clean skin? Given. They should stop calling it being hot and call it being healthy, because that is really what it is. Men and women subconciously look for the healthiest mate they can find, healthy = long life = attractive to us as at a base level.

The majority of people also voted for Bush. Just because everyone thinks a certain thing doesn't make it right or the truth. Anyways the point I was getting at is that you should just be yourself and go after whatever girl you find attractive and well worth your time. It's really that simple.

 

[swimscubasteve]

Originally posted by: skace
I like when people say "society says this" like society is some sort of secret illuminati that is trying to keep the sheep in line. Society is majority vote. If society thinks skinny girls with big breasts are hot, that is because the majority of men get woodies from said depiction of females. A lot of what "society says" for women and men is simply about being healthy. Neither overweight nor underweight is as hot as a sleek, toned body. This is a given. Good teeth? Given. Clean skin? Given. They should stop calling it being hot and call it being healthy, because that is really what it is. Men and women subconciously look for the healthiest mate they can find, healthy = long life = attractive to us as at a base level.

I think you may be missing what I am trying to point out. In fact what you are saying is a very good example of what I'm saying is potentialy dangerous. Basically NOTHING about what society says about beauty is based in heath. Women who have "sleek, toned" bodies do NOT live longer or are more heathy than women with more fat on them. Some fat is very healthy as it is how our bodies buffer energy.

The last sentence in your post is an attempt to rationalize a subjective standard. There is simply little to no logic behind subjective standards. You cannot correctly rationalize liking cheeseburgers over hot dogs. This type of behavior (I'm not judging you, I'm just pointing it out) is the very thing that I believe is so damaging to both men and women. People like things because everybody else likes them. We are programmed to follow what the group is doing. Now, of course the group is not like the Illuminati but they are like a giant rock in the middle of a field being pushed and nudged by thousands of different players. Where is ends up is a result of enertia and averages and has little to nothing to do with logic.

 

[DaShen]

ummm, OP, how is this new news?

 

[scootermaster]

Ugly people suck. Sort like fat people.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: swimscubasteve
I think you may be missing what I am trying to point out. In fact what you are saying is a very good example of what I'm saying is potentialy dangerous. Basically NOTHING about what society says about beauty is based in heath. Women who have "sleek, toned" bodies do NOT live longer or are more heathy than women with more fat on them. Some fat is very healthy as it is how our bodies buffer energy.

The last sentence in your post is an attempt to rationalize a subjective standard. There is simply little to no logic behind subjective standards. You cannot correctly rationalize liking cheeseburgers over hot dogs. This type of behavior (I'm not judging you, I'm just pointing it out) is the very thing that I believe is so damaging to both men and women. People like things because everybody else likes them. We are programmed to follow what the group is doing. Now, of course the group is not like the Illuminati but they are like a giant rock in the middle of a field being pushed and nudged by thousands of different players. Where is ends up is a result of enertia and averages and has little to nothing to do with logic.

The person who can run up the flight of stairs without bending over and wheezing is healthier, sorry. It has nothing to do with conditioning, but you keep telling yourself that.

Edit: Curious, how many fat female soccer players have you seen? How about volleyball players? Oh... but your weight has no correlation with being healthy? Right.

 

[Papagayo]

Sorry..

After the first sentence.. It got boring.. Plus my ADD kicked in..