YAGT: 6mm vs. 5.56mm *Poll*

[Gyrene]

Ok, I was having a discussion with my Lieutenant about the new XM8 rifles that are taking the stage to replace the current M16 in most platoons. As of now they are being developed for 5.56mm to have closer compatability with the M16, but my Lieutenant feels that the new 6mm SPC (6x43mm) is a far superior round, and with the development of a new gun, they should implement a new round. Discuss, I'll come back after my Euro Civ exam.

 

[K1052]

It is not just a question of superior performance. AFAIK, the official NATO round is 5.56 and does not seem to be changing.

 

[Orsorum]

What measurements are YOu referring to? 6mm vs. 5.56 either refers to a couple VERY unlucky men or there are bigger issues here than I thought!

 

[Analog]

7.62x63

 

[EyeMWing]

5.56mm NATO ammo = cheap, readily available worldwide. End of story.

 

[edro]

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
5.56mm NATO ammo = cheap, readily available worldwide. End of story.

zactly.

 

[tnitsuj]

They are not going to scrap the NATO spec ammo.

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: edro13

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
5.56mm NATO ammo = cheap, readily available worldwide. End of story.

zactly.

x3

Personally, scale that bish up to 7.62x54mm The Dragunov platform was very successful, if not all too common.

 

[Hammer]

4.7mm

 

[ElFenix]

bah, every soldier should just carry a carl gustav recoiless rifle. 84mm bitch!

 

[pulse8]

I thought an ATer had gone too far and this was going to be a thread about the best way of killing your girlfriend.

 

[bootymac]

I thought this was a YAGirlThread, and was curious what the measurements were

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: edro13

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
5.56mm NATO ammo = cheap, readily available worldwide. End of story.

zactly.

x3

Personally, scale that bish up to 7.62x54mm The Dragunov platform was very successful, if not all too common.

The 7.62x54R cartridge has been in use for over 100 years in the Russian military. The Mosin Nagant rifles were were the first to use it.

The Dragunov is a good rifle. However, I think I would like something based off of the AK action, like the the ROMAK 3. Just put on a heavier barrel and larger magazine.

<---Russian rifle junkie

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: edro13

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
5.56mm NATO ammo = cheap, readily available worldwide. End of story.

zactly.

x3

Personally, scale that bish up to 7.62x54mm The Dragunov platform was very successful, if not all too common.

The 7.62x54R cartridge has been in use for over 100 years in the Russian military. The Mosin Nagant rifles were were the first to use it.

The Dragunov is a good rifle. However, I think I would like something based off of the AK action, like the the ROMAK 3. Just put on a heavier barrel and larger magazine.

<---Russian rifle junkie

Well I know the history. I love Russian guns. I'm not saying its a new design, I'm saying its not a common size. Go to your local gun shop and ask for 5.56 or 7.62x39mm ammo. No problem. Now ask for 7.62x54mm ammo. Might be a bit harder to get.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: edro13

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
5.56mm NATO ammo = cheap, readily available worldwide. End of story.

zactly.

x3

Personally, scale that bish up to 7.62x54mm The Dragunov platform was very successful, if not all too common.

The 7.62x54R cartridge has been in use for over 100 years in the Russian military. The Mosin Nagant rifles were were the first to use it.

The Dragunov is a good rifle. However, I think I would like something based off of the AK action, like the the ROMAK 3. Just put on a heavier barrel and larger magazine.

<---Russian rifle junkie

Well I know the history. I love Russian guns. I'm not saying its a new design, I'm saying its not a common size. Go to your local gun shop and ask for 5.56 or 7.62x39mm ammo. No problem. Now ask for 7.62x54mm ammo. Might be a bit harder to get.

With all the surplus Russian guns flooding the market, it has been easier to find the ammo in stores.
Domestic ammo makers have been making it, I have some Winchester sitting at home. I generally use Wolf or milsurp because it is cheaper.

Finding the right weight bullet for the Dragunov or Romak is a little harder. They seem to like about 150 grains.

 

[PricklyPete]

What is this new XM8 rifle. Does someone know of a good article on this?

Edit: I googled...I found

 

[K1052]

HK XM8

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: K1052
HK XM8

Thanks K1052.

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: K1052
It is not just a question of superior performance. AFAIK, the official NATO round is 5.56 and does not seem to be changing.

Yea. But the 5.56mm has poor stopping power, as witnessed in Afghanistan, especially when it's coming out of the shorter barrel of the M4. It also has trouble traveling the distances needed for desert warfare. SOCOM has already been pressing for the use of the new 6.8x43mm cartridge, and while it would definately imporve CQB, it is far inferior to the 6mm for general use. Just because something has been adopted as official, doesn't mean it can't, and shouldn't, change.

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: pulse8
I thought an ATer had gone too far and this was going to be a thread about the best way of killing your girlfriend.

Well, that isn't too far from the truth right now, but I don't discuss girl situations with an online forum.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: K1052
It is not just a question of superior performance. AFAIK, the official NATO round is 5.56 and does not seem to be changing.

Yea. But the 5.56mm has poor stopping power, as witnessed in Afghanistan, especially when it's coming out of the shorter barrel of the M4. It also has trouble traveling the distances needed for desert warfare. SOCOM has already been pressing for the use of the new 6.8x43mm cartridge, and while it would definately imporve CQB, it is far inferior to the 6mm for general use. Just because something has been adopted as official, doesn't mean it can't, and shouldn't, change.

Forcing the change down on NATO countries is going to be a much harder than in the past. If they also decide that it is better to give up the 5.56, then great.

I am just unsure how many NATO countries will want to make the change.

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: K1052

Forcing the change down on NATO countries is going to be a much harder than in the past. If they also decide that it is better to give up the 5.56, then great.

I am just unsure how many NATO countries will want to make the change.

You don't have to force the change down on NATO countries. AFAIK, when the XM8 comes out it will only replace 3 M16s per squad (Team leader + 2 grenadiers). There will still be a need for the 5.56mm, but if we're implementing a new and improved gun, why not a new and improved round?

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: K1052

Forcing the change down on NATO countries is going to be a much harder than in the past. If they also decide that it is better to give up the 5.56, then great.

I am just unsure how many NATO countries will want to make the change.

You don't have to force the change down on NATO countries. AFAIK, when the XM8 comes out it will only replace 3 M16s per squad (Team leader + 2 grenadiers). There will still be a need for the 5.56mm, but if we're implementing a new and improved gun, why not a new and improved round?

I think you are addressing two seperate questions:
-Is the 6mm better than the 5.56?
-Will the US military adopt any rifles in 6mm for large scale usage (if not standard issue)?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: K1052

Forcing the change down on NATO countries is going to be a much harder than in the past. If they also decide that it is better to give up the 5.56, then great.

I am just unsure how many NATO countries will want to make the change.

You don't have to force the change down on NATO countries. AFAIK, when the XM8 comes out it will only replace 3 M16s per squad (Team leader + 2 grenadiers). There will still be a need for the 5.56mm, but if we're implementing a new and improved gun, why not a new and improved round?

IIRC, the eventual plan is to completely phase out the M16/M4 in favor of the modular XM8 system.

I just don't like having too many calibers to provide for. I suppose that?s why I like the DMR program that uses the M14, which operates off of 7.62 NATO ammo that is still very widely used in light machine guns.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: edro13

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
5.56mm NATO ammo = cheap, readily available worldwide. End of story.

zactly.

x3

Personally, scale that bish up to 7.62x54mm The Dragunov platform was very successful, if not all too common.

Hey Einstein.....7.62x54 is out of the stone age considering it is a rimmed cartridge and thus problematic on feeding mechanisms on auto/semi-auto weapons. Nostalgia is one thing......reliability is another, plus 5.56 is much lighter and you can carry a lot more ammo. I have a Moisen Nagant but my AR-15 is a much better all around weapon.