YACT: When will I get comfortable with the 5-speed?

[GalvanizedYankee]

Originally posted by: Confused
This is yet another example of why I think the UK system of driving is better than the US.

Here in the UK, there are two tests, for manual and for automatic. If you take an automatic test, you aren't able to drive a manual without another driver in the car who has a license for manual, and who is both over 21 and has held a driving license for over 3 years.

If you learn to drive in a manual, then you can drive both. The majority of people in the UK drive manuals, and therefore learn to drive in a manual, and learn how to shift properly. If you can't shift properly, then you can't pass your test.

However there in the US, everyone seems to learn to drive in an auto, then try to drive a manual, without knowing the first thing about how to drive them, and end up causing obstructions on junctions when they try to pull away and stall the engine. And yes, it is a hazzard, as you are blocking the road, and stopping others from moving.


Confused

Maybe so, but don't the Brits do it left handed and on the wrong side of the road?????????

j/k....

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: shuan24
Anybody know how to tell when your clutch starts to go out?

I drive a 92 mazda, and the clutch has never been replaced. Now when I'm in first gear, the clutch is so loose that I can let go of it slowly and not have my car stall. But other than that, the shifting is still fine, I cant notice any problems other than that.

Are you kidding me? Earlier you said

Whats wrong with hill holding? (other than wasting a lil gas) I'm from a very hilly place, and I do it all the time...because I'm lazy....

Do you know how a clutch works? Link Your manual transmission has two huge plates and they are spinning at different speeds. As you increase the pressure between them (letting your foot out, which is actually letting the clutch in) the speed of these two plates (essentially one hooked up to your wheels through the transmission, and the other hooked up to your engine) will match until finally they are spinning at the same speed. The point of a clutch is that without it if you tried to hook your wheels up to your engine instantly you get a violent lurch (or if at low speeds your car will stall).

The clutch is like a brake and we all know that brakes wear out. So do clutches. And if you're actually holding your car at a hill by toying with the throttle and the clutch, you are burning the living sh*t out of that clutch. Replacement will cost you several hundred dollars. I cringe when I see people hill holding in this manner. They are destroying their clutch.

Word of wisdom: Have your foot on the clutch pedal as little as possible. This means that when starting from a stop try to engage quickly (that doesn't mean jack up the RPM and drop the clutch, which will also kill it), but have your RPM quite low and quickly and efficiently engage the clutch. This also means never ever hill hold. How you drive will have a major affect on your clutch. I know of somebody who burned through a clutch on his corolla in 30k miles. The thing needed replacing after 30k miles! In the hands of a good driver they should last well over 100k, and often to 200k or more. If you are regularly hill holding you can forget any longevity like that.

 

[Eli]

Go Skoorb!

 

[crumpet19]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Word of wisdom: Have your foot on the clutch pedal as little as possible. This means that when starting from a stop try to engage quickly (that doesn't mean jack up the RPM and drop the clutch, which will also kill it), but have your RPM quite low and quickly and efficiently engage the clutch. This also means never ever hill hold. How you drive will have a major affect on your clutch. I know of somebody who burned through a clutch on his corolla in 30k miles. The thing needed replacing after 30k miles! In the hands of a good driver they should last well over 100k, and often to 200k or more. If you are regularly hill holding you can forget any longevity like that.

I drive and '89 Chevy Corsica and I just got a new clutch (pressure plate, throw out bearing, flywheel turned) last week. The original had 187k miles on it. I'm still getting used to having a new clutch. I drove it for a date the day after I got it back from the shop. I killed it 6 times with the girl in the car. At least she thought it was funny and laughed.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: crumpet19

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Word of wisdom: Have your foot on the clutch pedal as little as possible. This means that when starting from a stop try to engage quickly (that doesn't mean jack up the RPM and drop the clutch, which will also kill it), but have your RPM quite low and quickly and efficiently engage the clutch. This also means never ever hill hold. How you drive will have a major affect on your clutch. I know of somebody who burned through a clutch on his corolla in 30k miles. The thing needed replacing after 30k miles! In the hands of a good driver they should last well over 100k, and often to 200k or more. If you are regularly hill holding you can forget any longevity like that.

I drive and '89 Chevy Corsica and I just a new clutch in last week. The original had 187k miles on it. I'm still getting used to having a new clutch. I drove it for a date the day after I got it back from the shop. I killed it 6 times with the girl in the car. At least she thought it was funny and laughed.

Let me guess - you don't hill hold

 

[Red]

Thanks for the replies. As Ornery mentioned... I think it's important for me to learn how to drive it, but at my stage of learning right now, I feel like it's just a hassle =( Why not get an auto that changes gears for me and I don't ever have to replace a clutch, mess with hills, constantly use my left leg, etc.

BUT, having said that, I want to master the 5-speed before I form a final opinion.

 

[shuan24]

HA!

I'm at 160K, and I wouldnt exactly blame my clutch going out at this time on hill holding. I dont doubt that it has negative effects, I was just asking what they were.

Also, any other signs of the clutch going out?

 

[crumpet19]

Originally posted by: shuan24
HA!

I'm at 160K, and I wouldnt exactly blame my clutch going out at this time on hill holding. I dont doubt that it has negative effects, I was just asking what they were.

Also, any other signs of the clutch going out?

yeah, you barely have to press the clutch to shift. Your engine will have to be at a higher RPM when you shift gears in order to see acceleration. You have to over rev the engine to see accelleration. You have to over rev to start from a stop. The car may stutter in acceleration while coasting with the throttle off. If it gets bad enough you'll be able to stop the car and let off the clutch with out the car dying (it will just sit there idling).

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Whats wrong with hill holding? (other than wasting a lil gas) I'm from a very hilly place, and I do it all the time...because I'm lazy....

The excessive wear on the clutch is what's wrong with hill-holding.

Not to mention the excessive heat that causes hot spots and glazing.

 

[shuan24]

Thanks crumpet.

I'm experiencing a few of those symptoms right now. I'll wait till I can completely take my foot off the clutch without the car moving forward/dying until I go and replace it.

Another question: how much did it cost you guys to fix/replace your clutch? I've heard ~300-400 total depending on labor, but I've also horror stories of 600-700!

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: shuan24
I'm at 160K, and I wouldnt exactly blame my clutch going out at this time on hill holding. I dont doubt that it has negative effects, I was just asking what they were.

Depending on how much you hill hold I'd definitely blame it on going out now from hill holding. Afterall the fact that hill holding destroys clutch life is undeniably definite, and since your clutch is going at 160k (if indeed it is), it only makes sense to presume that if not for the undue wear from hill holding, your clutch would still be alive.

Why not get an auto that changes gears for me and I don't ever have to replace a clutch, mess with hills, constantly use my left leg, etc.

Manual transmissions are cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to fix/replace, and in most cases offer superior power. Clutch replacements are a small issue compared to everything else you need to do with an auto like more frequent fluid changes and and other repair costs. By its nature a manual transmission is a much simpler piece of equipment than an auto and as such it has less that can go wrong with it.

 

[crumpet19]

Originally posted by: shuan24
Thanks crumpet.

I'm experiencing a few of those symptoms right now. I'll wait till I can completely take my foot off the clutch without the car moving forward/dying until I go and replace it.

Another question: how much did it cost you guys to fix/replace your clutch? I've heard ~300-400 total depending on labor, but I've also horror stories of 600-700!

I don't think I'd wait that long to get it fixed. From what I understand driving on a badly worn clutch can fuxor your flywheel. Thats just more money. Plus towing costs. :disgust:

My clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing, and getting my flywheel turned cost me $483.97 parts and labor at the small local shop that I take my car to.
The parts alone were about $120.
My mechanic gave me a 12mo / 12k mile warranty. On parts and labor. This does not cover abuse. IE: Glazing it (revving the engine too high with the clutch partially enganged , hill holding, etc)

 

[shuan24]

it only makes sense to presume that if not for the undue wear from hill holding, your clutch would still be alive.

Although your statement is correct, I dont find that argument logical, for I can also make the following statement:

"it only makes sense to presume that if not for the undue wear FROM DRIVING YOUR CAR, your clutch would still be alive."

Again, I dont doubt that hill holding wears my clutch out, but the mere fact that it didnt go out under 50K, 100K, 150K etc, suggests that either:

A. Hill holding does not wear it out by that much (maybe 10% contribution, 20%, 30%, who knows?) and it probably wouldve gone out soon anyways
B. Perhaps I had a super strong clutch, but if I wasnt so fortunate, it shouldve gone out sooner, regardless of hill holding
C. Because I hill hold, my perfectly good clutch gone out at 160K when it shouldve gone out at 260K

I know you are obvioulsy making case C, but I am just curious if it wasnt the other cases, thats all.

 

[Jeff7181]

"it only makes sense to presume that if not for the undue wear FROM DRIVING YOUR CAR, your clutch would still be alive."

That's a dumb statement... "undue wear" means abnormal wear. Wear from driving your car is normal... wear from hill holding and standing on the clutch at a stop light instead of putting it in neutral is not normal... in otherwords, undue wear.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Redhotjrm
So I've been driving this 5-speed Celica for about 3 or 4 weeks now, everyday to school and work and I still am not comfortable with it. I am still worried when coming to hills with stoplights and the thing is really more of a pain-in-the-butt for driving to and from school. I am not into racing or driving fast and I don't take turns at speeds high enough to break traction on my rear tires to notice a difference between RWD and FWD.

My fiancees father, who is 41, said that eventually I will get to a point where I don't even think about shifting the 5-speed and it becomes just like driving an auto, so I just need to stick to it and just keep driving it. But in all seriousness, I'm glad I've learned how to drive one in case I ever need to in the future, but for a daily driver, I won't be buying another 5-speed.

i don't think i EVER got to where i didn't think about shifting, especially in stop and go rush hour traffic, but you will get to where you aren't as conscious about ever aspect of realising the clutch in about 3 months.

 

[shuan24]

DOH!

didnt read the "undue" part!

 

[StageLeft]

A. Hill holding does not wear it out by that much (maybe 10% contribution, 20%, 30%, who knows?) and it probably wouldve gone out soon anyways
B. Perhaps I had a super strong clutch, but if I wasnt so fortunate, it shouldve gone out sooner, regardless of hill holding
C. Because I hill hold, my perfectly good clutch gone out at 160K when it shouldve gone out at 260K

The amount it would destroy your clutch certainly depends upon the frequency with which you do it, so nailing down a number is surely quite impossible, but what I am saying is: hill holding is bad for a clutch. If you do it a lot it's going to wear out the clutch a lot more than in the same driving situations minus the hill holding. Assuming that you HH more than once in a blue moon I find it comfortable to state that since your clutch went out now at 160k with hill holding, it would have lasted significantly longer had you not of HH. 5k? 50k? Who knows, it really depends how much you hill hold.

However, in the situation I mentioend above about the fried corolla clutch at 30k I've seen how that fellow drives. He engages the clutch for long periods of time at high RPMs when accelerating, and the clutch wore several times faster than one normally should, so how one drives can have a major affect on clutch life.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

A. Hill holding does not wear it out by that much (maybe 10% contribution, 20%, 30%, who knows?) and it probably wouldve gone out soon anyways
B. Perhaps I had a super strong clutch, but if I wasnt so fortunate, it shouldve gone out sooner, regardless of hill holding
C. Because I hill hold, my perfectly good clutch gone out at 160K when it shouldve gone out at 260K

The amount it would destroy your clutch certainly depends upon the frequency with which you do it, so nailing down a number is surely quite impossible, but what I am saying is: hill holding is bad for a clutch. If you do it a lot it's going to wear out the clutch a lot more than in the same driving situations minus the hill holding. Assuming that you HH more than once in a blue moon I find it comfortable to state that since your clutch went out now at 160k with hill holding, it would have lasted significantly longer had you not of HH. 5k? 50k? Who knows, it really depends how much you hill hold.

However, in the situation I mentioend above about the fried corolla clutch at 30k I've seen how that fellow drives. He engages the clutch for long periods of time at high RPMs when accelerating, and the clutch wore several times faster than one normally should, so how one drives can have a major affect on clutch life.

another question regarding clutch wear, why do some people insist on engine braking? what is the advantage of engine braking vs just using the brakes?

 

[Jzero]

another question regarding clutch wear, why do some people insist on engine braking? what is the advantage of engine braking vs just using the brakes?

The usual answer is "To save the brakes" but it hardly makes sense to cause extra wear to the engine/drivetrain that would cost thousands to repair instead of extra wear to the brakes that at most would cost a few hundred to repair.

I do it all the time. Just because I can.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Skoorb

A. Hill holding does not wear it out by that much (maybe 10% contribution, 20%, 30%, who knows?) and it probably wouldve gone out soon anyways
B. Perhaps I had a super strong clutch, but if I wasnt so fortunate, it shouldve gone out sooner, regardless of hill holding
C. Because I hill hold, my perfectly good clutch gone out at 160K when it shouldve gone out at 260K

The amount it would destroy your clutch certainly depends upon the frequency with which you do it, so nailing down a number is surely quite impossible, but what I am saying is: hill holding is bad for a clutch. If you do it a lot it's going to wear out the clutch a lot more than in the same driving situations minus the hill holding. Assuming that you HH more than once in a blue moon I find it comfortable to state that since your clutch went out now at 160k with hill holding, it would have lasted significantly longer had you not of HH. 5k? 50k? Who knows, it really depends how much you hill hold.

However, in the situation I mentioend above about the fried corolla clutch at 30k I've seen how that fellow drives. He engages the clutch for long periods of time at high RPMs when accelerating, and the clutch wore several times faster than one normally should, so how one drives can have a major affect on clutch life.

another question regarding clutch wear, why do some people insist on engine braking? what is the advantage of engine braking vs just using the brakes?

We already had a big thread on that Some people do it and some don't. Personally I basically do not do it because my thoughts are that replacing brakes that are worn out is cheap and brakes are designed specifically for braking. Engine braking on the other hand puts additional wear on the engine/transmission and neither of those are a) cheap to fix or b) designed with slowing the vehicle in mind.

I only engine brake on especially steep hills. There is one by our home, but that's really the only one I do it on. I understand that large vehicles like big rigs and dump trucks pretty much have to engine brake because otherwise their brakes will fry and/or not allow adequate braking, which is probably the reason a truck full of rocks couldn't make the stop sign a couple months back, at the bottom of the hill I just mentioned. It lost its load and made a right ole mess!

 

[crumpet19]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

another question regarding clutch wear, why do some people insist on engine braking? what is the advantage of engine braking vs just using the brakes?

if some a$$hole is riding your bumper you can throw it down a couple gears and he'll never see the stoplights.

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I only engine brake on especially steep hills. There is one by our home, but that's really the only one I do it on. I understand that large vehicles like big rigs and dump trucks pretty much have to engine brake because otherwise their brakes will fry and/or not allow adequate braking, which is probably the reason a truck full of rocks couldn't make the stop sign a couple months back, at the bottom of the hill I just mentioned. It lost its load and made a right ole mess!

I do this too when I'm in the truck cause I'd hate to make a mess when I lose my load!

 

[CraigRT]

that's weird, i was used to it after about a week (to the point where i barely had to think)

and now it's like you just drive, don't need to look, just have the feel of the speeds and RPMs and stuff...

you'll get there, don't know when, but hopefully soon!!

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Skoorb

A. Hill holding does not wear it out by that much (maybe 10% contribution, 20%, 30%, who knows?) and it probably wouldve gone out soon anyways
B. Perhaps I had a super strong clutch, but if I wasnt so fortunate, it shouldve gone out sooner, regardless of hill holding
C. Because I hill hold, my perfectly good clutch gone out at 160K when it shouldve gone out at 260K

The amount it would destroy your clutch certainly depends upon the frequency with which you do it, so nailing down a number is surely quite impossible, but what I am saying is: hill holding is bad for a clutch. If you do it a lot it's going to wear out the clutch a lot more than in the same driving situations minus the hill holding. Assuming that you HH more than once in a blue moon I find it comfortable to state that since your clutch went out now at 160k with hill holding, it would have lasted significantly longer had you not of HH. 5k? 50k? Who knows, it really depends how much you hill hold.

However, in the situation I mentioend above about the fried corolla clutch at 30k I've seen how that fellow drives. He engages the clutch for long periods of time at high RPMs when accelerating, and the clutch wore several times faster than one normally should, so how one drives can have a major affect on clutch life.

another question regarding clutch wear, why do some people insist on engine braking? what is the advantage of engine braking vs just using the brakes?

We already had a big thread on that Some people do it and some don't. Personally I basically do not do it because my thoughts are that replacing brakes that are worn out is cheap and brakes are designed specifically for braking. Engine braking on the other hand puts additional wear on the engine/transmission and neither of those are a) cheap to fix or b) designed with slowing the vehicle in mind.

I only engine brake on especially steep hills. There is one by our home, but that's really the only one I do it on. I understand that large vehicles like big rigs and dump trucks pretty much have to engine brake because otherwise their brakes will fry and/or not allow adequate braking, which is probably the reason a truck full of rocks couldn't make the stop sign a couple months back, at the bottom of the hill I just mentioned. It lost its load and made a right ole mess!

ahh. well that's pretty much my thinking too. also, diesel trucks with higher compression ratios etc will find the engine breaking more effective than gas engine cars i'd imagine (just pure guess on my part).

 

[maziwanka]

i felt the same way. i just got my 6 speed and it takes a while getting used to it. im confident that itll become second nature to me, but ill have to find out in the spring cuz the car needs to be garaged for the winter.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: CraigRT
that's weird, i was used to it after about a week (to the point where i barely had to think)

and now it's like you just drive, don't need to look, just have the feel of the speeds and RPMs and stuff...

you'll get there, don't know when, but hopefully soon!!

i drove stick for 6 yrs, and i never got to where i completely ignored the process. it was annoying as hell in stop and go rush hour situations.