YACT: When does it make financial sense to get a different car?

[torpid]

I've got this 2002 Audi A4. I don't think the number of problems I've had could be counted on fingers and toes. Consumer Reports rated it in the "black" on reliability, as in worst possible rating. In the first week, the fuel gauge malfunctioned. I've had hoses collapse and crack a few times. I had oil sludge (due to inaccurate service recommendations). My horn stopped working recently. The radio malfunctions a few times a year requiring me to reset it (OK, not as big of a deal, but still). I'm just getting sick of taking this damn thing in for service (no, I don't take it in to reset a fuse).

It's been out of warranty less than 6 months and this is the third time I have to take it in - another check engine light issue. Let me guess, a hose?

I'm seriously considering whether to get a different car. I've almost paid this one off, a few months to go, and I like the idea of extra income to spend on a house or investments. But I'm wondering just how much of a loss I will take if I want to trade this junk heap in for a more reliable vehicle? A couple thosand bucks a year for repairs surely at some point adds up to costing more than a different vehicle?

Suppose the trade-in value of my car equals the used car price of some reliable vehicle like a few years old Camry. How much out of pocket does that end up costing?

Is it normal for cars that are only about 4 years old to have several problems requiring repairs each year?

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: torpid
Is it normal for cars that are only about 4 years old to have several problems requiring repairs each year?

No. Most cars make 60000-70000 miles before major probles multiple times per year. This is if you drive them hard. If you drive like a grandma, you might get up to 90000 or so.

 

[Abel007]

Thats more repairs than I've had on my 11 yr old Saturn.

 

[thirdeye]

I'd ditch, but then again. I'd rather put money into paying a car payment than keeping something that continually pisses me off running. It's all a piece of mind thing. Some aren't willing to pay for that, I am.

 

[BigJ]

Forget about what you paid up to now. Those are sunk costs.

Do you expect the car to be unreliable in the future? How much can you get for the car currently? How much of a hit are you willing to take in exchange for reliability and ease of mind? How much money would you have to pay for another car to be happy?

Ask yourself those questions and get back to us.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: BigJ
Forget about what you paid up to now. Those are sunk costs.

Do you expect the car to be unreliable in the future? How much can you get for the car currently? How much of a hit are you willing to take in exchange for reliability and ease of mind? How much money would you have to pay for another car to be happy?

Ask yourself those questions and get back to us.

Yes, I expect it to be unreliable in the future. If you had asked 3 months ago I'd have said no.

How much of a hit and how much would it take? I don't know, that's the question of the hour.

According to KBB my car trades in for somewhere between $13.5k and $15.5k

I'm browsing used car dealer and looking at some now...

I see a 2003 Maxima GLE with 45k miles for $19k - Great car not sure about the price difference, that would probably result in about another year of payments for me between the $5k difference, taxes, and my current $2.5k remaining.

I see a 2004 Accord LX for $15k and a 2003 Accord LX for $14.5k, not great but low mileage.

 

[Dirigible]

I would get rid of it. In the last twelve years, I've only had to bring a car into the shop once outside of scheduled maintenance. And that's for high-mileage cars, well over 100k. I couldn't stand having to deal with problems like that.

Ditch the lemon.

 

[jupiter57]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: torpid
Is it normal for cars that are only about 4 years old to have several problems requiring repairs each year?

No. Most cars make 60000-70000 miles before major probles multiple times per year. This is if you drive them hard. If you drive like a grandma, you might get up to 90000 or so.

Try a GM product.
Every one I've ever owned (12-15) has went well over 100,000 before anything at all went wrong!
Heck, my last Caddy went to 188K before I even did a tune-up, and made it to 240K before a radiator hose went bad! (All this, of course, not including routine maint.)
'01 Chevy Silverado will have 100K on it by the end of this month, nothing at all has went wrong yet. Everything on it is original, except filters & fluids, of course.

 

[torpid]

GM owns pontiac. Need I say more?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: jupiter57

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: torpid
Is it normal for cars that are only about 4 years old to have several problems requiring repairs each year?

No. Most cars make 60000-70000 miles before major probles multiple times per year. This is if you drive them hard. If you drive like a grandma, you might get up to 90000 or so.

Try a GM product.
Every one I've ever owned (12-15) has went well over 100,000 before anything at all went wrong!
Heck, my last Caddy went to 188K before I even did a tune-up, and made it to 240K before a radiator hose went bad! (All this, of course, not including routine maint.)
'01 Chevy Silverado will have 100K on it by the end of this month, nothing at all has went wrong yet. Everything on it is original, except filters & fluids, of course.

Audis are fairly notorious for problems of that sort... I've had an A4 as well and it had it's share of issues. I'd stay away from GM stuff if you're planning on selling it at some point - those cars depreciate like no tomorrow. (Though I'm not so sure about Caddies)

 

[radioouman]

WHy don't you just learn what keeps failing, and fix it yourself?

I mean, to me you have two different problems here.

One is that you want to be driving around in a car that is paid off.
The other is that you don't want to make payments anymore.

The down and dirty way to figure this out is if you are putting more money into repairs per month than your car payment. If you are paying $500 per month, then once your car is paid off, if you still put more than $500 per month into it, it isn't worth it.

However, look at it over the long term too. 6 months worth of $500 payments is $3000. If you only put one $500 repair into your paid-for car over 6 months, then you are coming out ahead.

In my opinion, getting rid of a car that is just paid off or not quite paid off is the worst time to get rid of it. You have paid for all of that depreciation, and someone else will get a bargain on it.

I am under the firm belief that a car should last 10 years. Five years (or less!) worth of payments, and then five years of free-ish driving.
$30,000 car over five years costs you $6000 per year to own/drive. A $30,000 car over ten years only costs you $3000 per year to drive.

 

[radioouman]

WHy don't you just learn what keeps failing, and fix it yourself?

I mean, to me you have two different problems here.

One is that you want to be driving around in a car that is paid off.
The other is that you don't want to make payments anymore.

The down and dirty way to figure this out is if you are putting more money into repairs per month than your car payment. If you are paying $500 per month, then once your car is paid off, if you still put more than $500 per month into it, it isn't worth it.

However, look at it over the long term too. 6 months worth of $500 payments is $3000. If you only put one $500 repair into your paid-for car over 6 months, then you are coming out ahead.

In my opinion, getting rid of a car that is just paid off or not quite paid off is the worst time to get rid of it. You have paid for all of that depreciation, and someone else will get a bargain on it.

I am under the firm belief that a car should last 10 years. Five years (or less!) worth of payments, and then five years of free-ish driving.
$30,000 car over five years costs you $6000 per year to own/drive. A $30,000 car over ten years only costs you $3000 per year to drive.

 

[torpid]

I don't have the diagnostic computer or car know-how to fix any of these problems myself. I considered fixing the horn myself until it required me to remove the front bumper. I have no idea how to seal cracks in hoses or replace collapsed hoses.

I heard a rumor that autozone has some ability to read diagnostic conditions. Is that true?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: torpid
Is it normal for cars that are only about 4 years old to have several problems requiring repairs each year?

No. Most cars make 60000-70000 miles before major probles multiple times per year. This is if you drive them hard. If you drive like a grandma, you might get up to 90000 or so.

Um, what kind of sh*tty cars are you driving?

I definitely don't drive like a grandma and my cars run 150,000+ miles before they start having little issues. If a car has serious problems in the first 100,000 miles, something is very, very wrong.

Hell, my 951 has 154,000 miles on it, runs 15 PSI of boost from the upgraded turbo (stock is 11.75 PSI), and still doesn't burn any oil or have any issues beyond what's expected (clutch, 20-year-old rubber lines starting to get surface cracks, etc) due to "soft" componants simply aging. It is definitely driven hard and has been for all of its life, but it still only has major maintenance about once a year. It has never broken down on me and it still doesn't burn oil. (I was on a drive up in Canada last weekend and we saw speeds above 140 mph on a track and the car still didn't lose any measurable amount of oil over the 2,000 miles driven that weekend. Spent probably 50% of that time at 80% throttle or more.)

A car that develops serious problems multiple times a year by 90,000 miles is a car that is either a lemon or has been abused by an ignorant owner.

ZV

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: torpid
Yes, I expect it to be unreliable in the future. If you had asked 3 months ago I'd have said no.

How much of a hit and how much would it take? I don't know, that's the question of the hour.

According to KBB my car trades in for somewhere between $13.5k and $15.5k

I'm browsing used car dealer and looking at some now...

I see a 2003 Maxima GLE with 45k miles for $19k - Great car not sure about the price difference, that would probably result in about another year of payments for me between the $5k difference, taxes, and my current $2.5k remaining.

I see a 2004 Accord LX for $15k and a 2003 Accord LX for $14.5k, not great but low mileage.

You can probably get a new accord below invoice, it's near the end of it's design cycle.

 

[funboy6942]

You do know that if the same part fails on the car three times it can be considered a lemon and the dealership/factory can be forced through the courts to buy it back and pay it all off right?

You do know that even though it is 6 months out if you contact the Audi customer service line and throw one hell of a fit and they know it has been in the shop for the same problem will bend over backwards and kiss your ass so that you dont go through the lemon law?

To go through the lemon law or arbritration (sp) act it just has to have the same part fail 3 times. Shows that it just cannot be fixed and can and will be bought back. I know this for a fact because I had my 1992 Hyundi Excell bought back going through the Arbritration(sp) act and it all got paid off and got my down payment back as well. Hyundia at the time even offered me a 10yr/100k mile bumber to bumber warranty (this was before what they have now in place) if I wouldnt go through with it.

 

[torpid]

The 2002 A4 is basically a lemon. As I mentioned, it is one of the least reliable years in the last dozen years for the A4.

I suppose it's possible I'm doing something to cause all these fuel system problems like the collapsed and cracked hoses. Somehow I doubt it. I do know that the oil sludge problem was partly my fault for not doing enough research to know that the recommended oil change intervals by Audi were not sufficient to prevent oil sludge. They did the fight-club approach of waiting for the problem to nearly kill me before fixing it, in the form of extending the oil sludge warranty to 8 years.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: funboy42
You do know that if the same part fails on the car three times it can be considered a lemon and the dealership/factory can be forced through the courts to buy it back and pay it all off right?

You do know that even though it is 6 months out if you contact the Audi customer service line and throw one hell of a fit and they know it has been in the shop for the same problem will bend over backwards and kiss your ass so that you dont go through the lemon law?

To go through the lemon law or arbritration (sp) act it just has to have the same part fail 3 times. Shows that it just cannot be fixed and can and will be bought back. I know this for a fact because I had my 1992 Hyundi Excell bought back going through the Arbritration(sp) act and it all got paid off and got my down payment back as well. Hyundia at the time even offered me a 10yr/100k mile bumber to bumber warranty (this was before what they have now in place) if I wouldnt go through with it.

Lemon law does not include cars out of warranty like mine. If it is the same hose, it would be the 3rd time possibly, but 2 times out of warranty.

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: torpid
The 2002 A4 is basically a lemon. As I mentioned, it is one of the least reliable years in the last dozen years for the A4.

I suppose it's possible I'm doing something to cause all these fuel system problems like the collapsed and cracked hoses. Somehow I doubt it. I do know that the oil sludge problem was partly my fault for not doing enough research to know that the recommended oil change intervals by Audi were not sufficient to prevent oil sludge. They did the fight-club approach of waiting for the problem to nearly kill me before fixing it, in the form of extending the oil sludge warranty to 8 years.

Then why spend more money and trade it in and be upside down and take the 6 months to get it bought back going through the law?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: torpid
The 2002 A4 is basically a lemon. As I mentioned, it is one of the least reliable years in the last dozen years for the A4.

I suppose it's possible I'm doing something to cause all these fuel system problems like the collapsed and cracked hoses. Somehow I doubt it. I do know that the oil sludge problem was partly my fault for not doing enough research to know that the recommended oil change intervals by Audi were not sufficient to prevent oil sludge. They did the fight-club approach of waiting for the problem to nearly kill me before fixing it, in the form of extending the oil sludge warranty to 8 years.

In your case, I'm pretty sure that it's the car and not the owner. The abuse comment was more aimed at the person who claimed that a car normally has issues by 60,000-70,000 miles unless driven like a granny.

ZV

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: funboy42
You do know that if the same part fails on the car three times it can be considered a lemon and the dealership/factory can be forced through the courts to buy it back and pay it all off right?

You do know that even though it is 6 months out if you contact the Audi customer service line and throw one hell of a fit and they know it has been in the shop for the same problem will bend over backwards and kiss your ass so that you dont go through the lemon law?

To go through the lemon law or arbritration (sp) act it just has to have the same part fail 3 times. Shows that it just cannot be fixed and can and will be bought back. I know this for a fact because I had my 1992 Hyundi Excell bought back going through the Arbritration(sp) act and it all got paid off and got my down payment back as well. Hyundia at the time even offered me a 10yr/100k mile bumber to bumber warranty (this was before what they have now in place) if I wouldnt go through with it.

Lemon law does not include cars out of warranty like mine. If it is the same hose, it would be the 3rd time possibly, but 2 times out of warranty.

Ok well you can atleast call Audi and throw a fit. Hell when I was the manager for Doge and Fords sevice departments alot of people did this and the manufatures flipped the bill or paid half of it. I did it with my wifes car (why the hell not customers did it to me) when my wifes trans died for the 4th tiem and she was 1 year and almost 30K mile out and they sent a brand new tranny to the dealership I had it at and installed fixed it for free. So bitch up a storm for the worst they ccan say is no. Jus thave all the records of what has been done while in service. Again the worst they can say is no to you 😉

 

[archcommus]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: torpid
Is it normal for cars that are only about 4 years old to have several problems requiring repairs each year?

No. Most cars make 60000-70000 miles before major probles multiple times per year. This is if you drive them hard. If you drive like a grandma, you might get up to 90000 or so.

Um, what kind of sh*tty cars are you driving?

I definitely don't drive like a grandma and my cars run 150,000+ miles before they start having little issues. If a car has serious problems in the first 100,000 miles, something is very, very wrong.

Hell, my 951 has 154,000 miles on it, runs 15 PSI of boost from the upgraded turbo (stock is 11.75 PSI), and still doesn't burn any oil or have any issues beyond what's expected (clutch, 20-year-old rubber lines starting to get surface cracks, etc) due to "soft" componants simply aging. It is definitely driven hard and has been for all of its life, but it still only has major maintenance about once a year. It has never broken down on me and it still doesn't burn oil. (I was on a drive up in Canada last weekend and we saw speeds above 140 mph on a track and the car still didn't lose any measurable amount of oil over the 2,000 miles driven that weekend. Spent probably 50% of that time at 80% throttle or more.)

A car that develops serious problems multiple times a year by 90,000 miles is a car that is either a lemon or has been abused by an ignorant owner.

ZV

While I mostly agree with you, I wouldn't say that ANY car that develops issues before 100k miles was either abused or is a lemon. Keep in mind you're talking about your Porsche. 😛