YACT: Stupid but fun idea

[kevinthenerd]

If you replace the rear shocks in a front-wheel-drive car with solid bars of metal, would the high roll resistance in the rear and lack of roll resistance in the front make for a very loose car that's fun to drift?

(Loose = tending to oversteer)

 

[Zenmervolt]

It would make for a car that sucks at cornering and it probably wouldn't counter the natural FWD understeer tendency.

ZV

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
It would make for a car that sucks at cornering and it probably wouldn't counter the natural FWD understeer tendency.

ZV

No, it would overly counter the natural understeer tendency. The whole point is the make the rear stiff so that it handles all the lateral axial loading. The outside rear tire would be heavily loaded, and the rear inside tire would be lightly loaded. This would leave the front tires to be evenly balanced, and they'd use their contact patch more effectively as a result.

I've seen heavy sway bars and tight springs used in the rear on FWD autocross cars to make the car very twichy and loose. I figured this would be a cheap alternative.

 

[Umberger]

Too stiff a rear end will lead to oversteer. You are correct. A good, easy to read refrence on this subject is "Tune to Win" by Carroll Smith.

 

[kevinthenerd]

 

[Stunt]

Try it...and post the video here.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Try it...and post the video here.

Will do. I just need time to fabricate some fake shocks... or maybe I should buy some new ones and weld solid my old ones. I'm broke, though.

(I love having a welder!)

 

[Zenmervolt]

I say it because it's true. What you're suggesting would impact lift-throttle conditions and steady-state conditions, but as soon as you start putting a lot of power to the front wheels while cornering, you'll lose grip at the front. You can get pretty much any car to snap-oversteer by abruptly lifting the throttle in a corner, but a FWD car with enough power will always understeer when given heavy throttle in the middle of a corner.

You're right only if you never intend to accelerate heavily.

ZV

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
I say it because it's true. What you're suggesting would impact lift-throttle conditions and steady-state conditions, but as soon as you start putting a lot of power to the front wheels while cornering, you'll lose grip at the front. You can get pretty much any car to snap-oversteer by abruptly lifting the throttle in a corner, but a FWD car with enough power will always understeer when given heavy throttle in the middle of a corner.

You're right only if you never intend to accelerate heavily.

ZV

The best way to prove you wrong would be to do it. With the rear keeping everything stiff, I'm willing to bet that the lack of camber correction in the front might play a role, but all things considered, I don't think power understeer will be a problem considering the improvement of efficiency in the front.

 

[Umberger]

I wouldn't think that the effect would be as pronounced in a FWD. In a RWD, you unload the inside rear tire and lose the ability to put any power on the ground with it, and without a limited slip or Torsen diff, you just tons of wheelspin. You don't have that happening in a FWD.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: Umberger
I wouldn't think that the effect would be as pronounced in a FWD. In a RWD, you unload the inside rear tire and lose the ability to put any power on the ground with it, and without a limited slip or Torsen diff, you just tons of wheelspin. You don't have that happening in a FWD.

True, but I think it'll still be pronounced enough to have to try hard to keep it from happening.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Better idea: My friend has a Hyundai Accent that he beats to hell. Maybe I should pick up some junkyard shocks for it and weld them. Junkyard parts for my car are a little out of the question considering it's not a very popular car and that it's fairly new. (My Saturn ION is a 2003, the first year they made it.) For example, I had to drive two hours to a junkyard that had a rim when I hit a curb not too long ago. (Asshole ran me off the road... long story.)

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: kevinthenerd

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
I say it because it's true. What you're suggesting would impact lift-throttle conditions and steady-state conditions, but as soon as you start putting a lot of power to the front wheels while cornering, you'll lose grip at the front. You can get pretty much any car to snap-oversteer by abruptly lifting the throttle in a corner, but a FWD car with enough power will always understeer when given heavy throttle in the middle of a corner.

You're right only if you never intend to accelerate heavily.

ZV

The best way to prove you wrong would be to do it. With the rear keeping everything stiff, I'm willing to bet that the lack of camber correction in the front might play a role, but all things considered, I don't think power understeer will be a problem considering the improvement of efficiency in the front.

Power understeer will ALWAYS be a problem in high-power FWD vehicles. There is a fixed amount of traction available to the tires. This can either be used for lateral traction or propulsion. Rear tires need less lateral grip available because they simply follow the fronts. Front tires require extra lateral traction because they are working against the vehicle's inertia. By applying propulsion to the front tires, you reduce the amount of traction available for keeping the tires planted laterally.

If you're using 100% of available front traction to keep the car on the cornering line you've chosen and then you add more throttle, the car will move towards understeer if it's FWD. Period.

Your proposal would help create snap-oversteer, but not the useful steady-state form.

ZV

 

[EarthwormJim]

Say hello to torn sheet metal.