YACT: Heel and toe downshifts while braking

[jagec]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
How do you do heel and toe if your car doesn't have ABS and you're on the track racing? Then wouldn't you have to pump the brakes while trying to blimp the gas? That's insane.
Well I actually saw this group B rally video where this guy did it. His foot was moving so fast, it was just unbelievable.

Pumping the brakes is for people who can't drive. The fastest way to stop in a car is to NOT have ABS, and hold it at the threshold of traction. ABS is good for your average driver, but lots of people pull their ABS fuses to disable them when on the track.

My pedals are so close together, instead of "heel-toe" I have to do "right-half-of-my-foot, left-half-of-my-foot"

 

[The Stigenator]

heel and toe =/= blipping the throttle.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: Desslok

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: Lonyo
In Formula 1 they don't, so you don't need to either.

Formula one cars are automatic without a clutch, so they don't need it.
But they do it in GT racing.

HUH? What are you talking about?

F1 cars have clutches, they are just operated by the computer.

Other examples

BMW SMG
Audi/VW DSG

Yes automatics have clutches too.
But since they are operated by the computer, you don't need to heel and toe.

They're not automatic.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Yeah I get that concept, but to revmatch perfectly so that the car doesn't accelerate nor deccelerate the slightest bit.. I think that would take some practice.

It does take some practice, but you'll be much better and better on your car if you learn it.

and heel-toe means to use the ball of your foot to brake and using the heel of the same foot to revmatch. It's pretty difficult and takes a lot of practice to get right.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: Desslok

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: Desslok

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: Lonyo
In Formula 1 they don't, so you don't need to either.

Formula one cars are automatic without a clutch, so they don't need it.
But they do it in GT racing.

HUH? What are you talking about?

F1 cars have clutches, they are just operated by the computer.

Other examples

BMW SMG
Audi/VW DSG

Yes automatics have clutches too.
But since they are operated by the computer, you don't need to heel and toe.

No automatics have torque converters not a clutch.

Not only do DSG Automatics have a clutch, but they have two of them.

Those aren't automatics either.

And real automatic transmissions have clutches, too, just not the same kind as in standard transmissions.

 

[trmiv]

Heel/toe, rev matching? Just frigging drive the car, you're not a race car driver and you're not on a race track.

 

[Zenmervolt]

You're talking about double-clutching. Heel and toe is only used under braking. I've never needed to use heel-and-toe on the street.

As for the question of it harming your transmission/clutch: Only if you screw it up. Modern transmissions are fully synchronized and double-clutching is not necessary on the street. Some of us do it because we like to and it's fun, but you will not cause any transmission/clutch issues if you don't double-clutch.

ZV

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: trmiv
Heel/toe, rev matching? Just frigging drive the car, you're not a race car driver and you're not on a race track.

The street IS my track, b1tch!:evil:

 

[Kalvin00]

I do revmatch...but my feet are way too big to comfortably control the gas and brake at the same time.

 

[MysticLlama]

Sooo many things in here....

You won't accelerate if you hit the throttle to rev match and let the gear back in, it's just a matter of revving to the point just below where it needs to be, so that as you react and let the clutch back out the rpms fall to just where the wheel speed is. (Unless you have a 0 reaction time because you're a robot)

The reason to let the clutch out in every gear while racing is an extra margin of safety. If you overheat or lose the brakes you at least have some compression braking to slow down a little, you're also in gear more often and have power to the wheels to make a correction or avoidance move if needed. The transmissions on race cars often don't like skipping gears either, and some varieties (sequentials) can't really.

Not having ABS isn't really that big of a deal, I can stop my car without much quicker than the car with because of how it's set up. You're also not really pumping the brakes, you're only slightly adjusting the pressure of your foot, so moving 1/16th of a inch maybe cycling between close to lockup and letting off a bit.

Add in cars with worn or no synchros and you have to try to double-clutch to get the thing to go into gear while doing heel and toe. I still can't do that quite right, but I can heel and toe to rev match the car with good synchros no problem. Double-clutch heel and toe goes: clutch in, shifter to neutral, clutch out, throttle to match speeds, clutch in, shifter to next lower gear, throttle to match speeds to wheels, clutch out. Doing that while braking with the same foot is hard.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Yeah I'll try plain rev matching first them practice doing the heel and toe on my car.

And rev matching is very, very easy. Don't think of it as something you need to do to smooth out the shift. Push in clutch, rev, shift, let clutch down. If you think of the revving as storing energy up that you are going to unleash when you get off the clutch, it feels intuitive. The further you downshift, the more you store, the more you unleash.

Yeah I get that concept, but to revmatch perfectly so that the car doesn't accelerate nor deccelerate the slightest bit.. I think that would take some practice.

A tachometer would really, really help, but its just practice, getting use to your car.

Having a tach makes it a little easier to do, but I find it slows down getting really comfortable with a car; without a tach you rely on feel and sound and pretty quickly do better than you would trying to rev-match visually with a tach.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: MysticLlama
You're also not really pumping the brakes, you're only slightly adjusting the pressure of your foot, so moving 1/16th of a inch maybe cycling between close to lockup and letting off a bit.

Assuming the road surface is consistent, you shouldn't even be doing that...

 

[MysticLlama]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Having a tach makes it a little easier to do, but I find it slows down getting really comfortable with a car; without a tach you rely on feel and sound and pretty quickly do better than you would trying to rev-match visually with a tach.

Yeah... and let's not be trying to stare at a tach while in a braking zone just about to go around a corner, probably not a good idea. I go by ear most of the time if moving pretty fast, by feel if not, and at that point it doesn't need to be dead right anyway.

I only use it when upshifting, or in normal traffic driving and I want to skip down a couple of gears I make sure I'm not going to be up to high by doing that. (Blowing an engine is bad, mmmkay?)

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: Desslok

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: Desslok

Originally posted by: virtualgames0

Originally posted by: Lonyo
In Formula 1 they don't, so you don't need to either.

Formula one cars are automatic without a clutch, so they don't need it.
But they do it in GT racing.

HUH? What are you talking about?

F1 cars have clutches, they are just operated by the computer.

Other examples

BMW SMG
Audi/VW DSG

Yes automatics have clutches too.
But since they are operated by the computer, you don't need to heel and toe.

No automatics have torque converters not a clutch.

Not only do DSG Automatics have a clutch, but they have two of them.

Those aren't automatics either.

And real automatic transmissions have clutches, too, just not the same kind as in standard transmissions.

How are they not automatic? They shift gears without user intervention, hence the term automatic.

I wouldnt go as far as to call a lockup torque convertor a clutch, if thats what youre implying.

 

[MysticLlama]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: MysticLlama
You're also not really pumping the brakes, you're only slightly adjusting the pressure of your foot, so moving 1/16th of a inch maybe cycling between close to lockup and letting off a bit.

Assuming the road surface is consistent, you shouldn't even be doing that...

Yep, unfortunately we rarely have that option here. On a newish, well kept track you're right, there is probably an optimal point on the pedal in straight line braking. I'm not good enough to find it though.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: BD2003
How are they not automatic? They shift gears without user intervention, hence the term automatic.

I wouldnt go as far as to call a lockup torque convertor a clutch, if thats what youre implying.

Clutch packs, dude. Every single gear has them.

The term "automatic" is like the term "wireless"...it means so many different things that it's useless in any technical discussion. However, most people think of a clutch pack-torque converter-PNDR system when they hear "automatic". The high-end, true manual systems with a computer controlled clutch, like Porsche, BMW, and other top $$$ cars have, don't really fall into that category, since the underlying technology is completely different.

 

[cjgallen]

I tap the throttle to bring the revs up, let the clutch out, and then brake. With my pedal arrangement heel-toe is impossible.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: BD2003
How are they not automatic? They shift gears without user intervention, hence the term automatic.

I wouldnt go as far as to call a lockup torque convertor a clutch, if thats what youre implying.

Clutch packs, dude. Every single gear has them.

The term "automatic" is like the term "wireless"...it means so many different things that it's useless in any technical discussion. However, most people think of a clutch pack-torque converter-PNDR system when they hear "automatic". The high-end, true manual systems with a computer controlled clutch, like Porsche Tiptronic, don't really fall into that category, since the underlying technology is completely different.

Sure thats what I think of when I think of an auto too, but that doesnt mean that a DSG isnt an automatic.

 

[Viperoni]

I've been heel-toe downshifting for more than a year now, usually don't need to in regular traffic, but it's good to keep on practicing

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Sure thats what I think of when I think of an auto too, but that doesnt mean that a DSG isnt an automatic.

your car radio is a "wireless", too, but everyone will think you're talking about your cellphone.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: BD2003
Sure thats what I think of when I think of an auto too, but that doesnt mean that a DSG isnt an automatic.

your car radio is a "wireless", too, but everyone will think you're talking about your cellphone.

Thats an absurd comparison. No one calls their car radios or their phones just "wireless", they call them radios and cell/mobile/wireless phone.

On the other hand, the DSG is *literally* an automatic transmission.

For instance, a "wireless phone" can uses AMPS, CDMA or GSM, whereas a Auto can use a Torque Convertor, CVT, Tiptronic, DSG etc...

DSGs are not traditional Autos, but they most certainly are auto.

 

[Reckoner]

I single clutch revmatch

 

[dawheat]

When to rev-match and when to heel-and-toe depends mostly on how much you need to slow down, i.e. how hard you are on the brakes.

It's actually easier to learn how to heel-and-toe the harder you're braking as it takes time to learn how much force to use. If you're lightly on the brakes and try to heel-and-toe, noobs normally face plant into their steering wheel as they also suddenly push on the brakes with much more force.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: dawheat
When to rev-match and when to heel-and-toe depends mostly on how much you need to slow down. If you're on a highway or approaching a gentle bend where you just want to pop down a gear, then rev-matching is easy as you just give the throttle a blip while the clutch is in. After some practice, you should be able to instinctively know much much throttle to give depending on what speed you are and what gear.

If you're driving quickly enough where you need to brake more than just a tap, it's good practice to learn how to heel-and-toe. While not as important as on the track, it help out two ways on the street. As your downshifting, you'll keep from unbalancing the car while braking. The harder you're braking, the more susceptible the vehicle is being further unbalanced as most of the weight is on the front tires.

Secondly, you reach the apex in the correct gear to accelerate out. You don't want to wait until you're done braking to downshift as you normally want to be on the throttle.

It's actually easier to learn how to heel-and-toe the harder you're braking as it takes time to learn how much force to use. If you're lightly on the brakes and try to heel-and-toe, noobs normally face plant into their steering wheel as they also suddenly push on the brakes much harder.

Although I'm all for speeding, if you *have to* heel and toe on the street because downshifting in a turn would unbalance you, you should probably slow the hell down.

 

[Hyudra]

heel and toe is a advanced technique of double clutching. I'm sure someone mentioned that earlier. It's fun to do, easier on some cars than others due to the positioning of the pedals and how responsive the engine is to acceleration/blipping the throttle. And I'm sure you know that the toe goes on the break and the heel goes on the gas right.......