YACT: car buying: do you really "have" to sign your 4-square?

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compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
126
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: compuwiz1

There is a reason for this. Most sales managers are busy, working several deals at a time, overseeing several salesperson's transactions at a time. They do not have time to waste on non committments.

wow, you have it bassackwards. The sales manager is usually sitting there with his thumb up his ass running credit reports. They want the autograph because that's what they use as authorization to do the credit checks. They have time to waste, they have all the time in the world. The whole trip to the managers office is to waste time, not theirs, but YOURS. The longer they keep the customer in the dealer the lower the resistance and the more likely they are to buy just to get it over with. If you let them string you along for 10 hours they'd do it and be grateful for the chance.

That's why you have to get up and walk whenever things take a turn against you. While you're in the chair they own your ass. When you get up they have to scramble to get you back.


Oh really? I'm a manager at a car store, you're telling me, I have it bassackwards. I assure you I understand how it works. ;)

They can't run a credit report off a 4 square. If you don't want your credit run, tell them you will sign an application, once your numbers are met.


And I've sold cars and taken a few 4-squares back to the sales manager. All we'd do is run their credit, laugh at them and let them sweat. The sales manager does jack. The whole point of running back there is to make the customer sit there and sweat it out thinking "will he accept it, will he accept it." If they're making the biggest profit in dealership history off you they'll still make you wait just because it makes it easier to close later on.

You, apparently worked in a store, which employed those tactics.
 

SmoochyTX

Lifer
Apr 19, 2003
13,615
0
0
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: compuwiz1

There is a reason for this. Most sales managers are busy, working several deals at a time, overseeing several salesperson's transactions at a time. They do not have time to waste on non committments.

wow, you have it bassackwards. The sales manager is usually sitting there with his thumb up his ass running credit reports. They want the autograph because that's what they use as authorization to do the credit checks. They have time to waste, they have all the time in the world. The whole trip to the managers office is to waste time, not theirs, but YOURS. The longer they keep the customer in the dealer the lower the resistance and the more likely they are to buy just to get it over with. If you let them string you along for 10 hours they'd do it and be grateful for the chance.

That's why you have to get up and walk whenever things take a turn against you. While you're in the chair they own your ass. When you get up they have to scramble to get you back.


Oh really? I'm a manager at a car store, you're telling me, I have it bassackwards. I assure you I understand how it works. ;)

They can't run a credit report off a 4 square. If you don't want your credit run, tell them you will sign an application, once your numbers are met.


And I've sold cars and taken a few 4-squares back to the sales manager. All we'd do is run their credit, laugh at them and let them sweat. The sales manager does jack. The whole point of running back there is to make the customer sit there and sweat it out thinking "will he accept it, will he accept it." If they're making the biggest profit in dealership history off you they'll still make you wait just because it makes it easier to close later on.

You, apparently worked in a store, which employed those tactics.
Car salesmen arguing with each other is like lawyers arguing with each other.

:laugh:
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
OP, go to edmunds.com and they have some good articles about how to buy a vehicle.

You did well, never sign anything that is not a legal paper. Your sale man sounded like a typical sleaze ball.

Negotiate the vehicle price, trade, and finance <if you have a trade and need finance> in THREE SEPARATE transactions.

One important thing, YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER. You can and will walk away if you don't have a good deal for you and fair deal for the dealer. Don't fall the tricks such as paint protection.

<<<---------- paid for one crossover SUV by cash with $50 on top of dealer cost, a few thousands off from the sticker price. I did that by asked my local dealer to pricematch the sale price of the big city <Dallas, TX> dealers.
 

dxkj

Lifer
Feb 17, 2001
11,772
2
81
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
I had my first car-buying negotiating experience today. I was able to negotiate the internet salesman down to a price that I found acceptable, but he kept insisting that I sign the 4-square negotiating sheet as "proof" of my "offer." I told him I was serious about buying the car and would sign a bill of sale at the agreed upon price, but I wasn't signing a pre-sale agreement. He eventually gathered up the papers and told me he couldn't sell me the car unless I signed the 4-square, period.

Now, I wasn't particulary opposed to signing on an agreed upon price, but I wasn't going to sign his 4-square with its randomly generated monthly payment price in that bottom corner. I wanted to agree on a price, and then have the montly payment generated by the specific interest rate I would eventually be offered by the finance department.

So did I really have to sign the 4-square eventually in order to buy this car, or was the saleman just praying I was an idiot and had forgotten about the monthly payment figure to which my signature would also apply?

flame away! ;)

um duh he was trying to fuk you
 

LS20

Banned
Jan 22, 2002
5,858
0
0
1. sell your car privately, no tradein
2. get preapproval from external bank
thus, at the dealership, discuss final selling price, and final selling price only. no monthly payment no payment duration. shoot for the price out the door, and handle the rest with your bank
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
126
Originally posted by: SmoochyTX
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: compuwiz1

There is a reason for this. Most sales managers are busy, working several deals at a time, overseeing several salesperson's transactions at a time. They do not have time to waste on non committments.

wow, you have it bassackwards. The sales manager is usually sitting there with his thumb up his ass running credit reports. They want the autograph because that's what they use as authorization to do the credit checks. They have time to waste, they have all the time in the world. The whole trip to the managers office is to waste time, not theirs, but YOURS. The longer they keep the customer in the dealer the lower the resistance and the more likely they are to buy just to get it over with. If you let them string you along for 10 hours they'd do it and be grateful for the chance.

That's why you have to get up and walk whenever things take a turn against you. While you're in the chair they own your ass. When you get up they have to scramble to get you back.


Oh really? I'm a manager at a car store, you're telling me, I have it bassackwards. I assure you I understand how it works. ;)

They can't run a credit report off a 4 square. If you don't want your credit run, tell them you will sign an application, once your numbers are met.


And I've sold cars and taken a few 4-squares back to the sales manager. All we'd do is run their credit, laugh at them and let them sweat. The sales manager does jack. The whole point of running back there is to make the customer sit there and sweat it out thinking "will he accept it, will he accept it." If they're making the biggest profit in dealership history off you they'll still make you wait just because it makes it easier to close later on.

You, apparently worked in a store, which employed those tactics.
Car salesmen arguing with each other is like lawyers arguing with each other.

:laugh:

No, I'm trying to help people who don't really understand, to understand, and quit making wild assumptions.

As sales managers, we don't just sit there with our thumbs up our butts, running credit reports, running credit reports is but one function of our jobs.

If I have 5 salespeople working deals, without some kind of a worksheet, I'd never be able to keep track of where they are all at in their deals.

At some point, you kind of need to know what the customer wants. I'd have no idea, if it weren't written on something. ;)

Now, here is what is really happening, when the salesperson brings a 4 square, or write up (same thing):

Book out the trade
Appraise the trade
Plug the numbers into the computer, to determine, if what the customer wants, creates a deal, or a loss.
Run credit, to be sure I can get customer financed, and at what interest rate, since score determines what rate they may qualify for.
Look at different term options to do my best to get to the customer's payment request
Check my lender's standards to be sure it will get financed ok

If the deal works as written, we tell the salesperson to shake the customer's hand, we have a deal.
If the deal does not work, then we go back with what will work.

All of this is perceived as time, where the customer is made to stew, but that's not the purpose. It just takes time to work it all through.

Now, on a busy day, some customers need to wait, because you can only work one deal at a time. It is not because there is some sinister plot at work. :)

 

Pacemaker

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2001
1,184
2
0
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
1) Never sign ANYTHING. They'll use that to run your credit without your permission.

2) Never even try to do business with a dealer that uses a 4-square. That's a classic trick for hitting suckers with too many numbers for them to keep straight. If they're using a 4-square it's to try to hide something from you. Negotiate PRICE AND PRICE ALONE. NOTHING ELSE!

3) Only when you have a price should you move on to tradein. Make sure both the price and trade numbers are acceptable. If either isn't to your satisfaction, WALK.

4) NEVER EVER SHOP FOR PAYMENT!!! That's how they screw idiots. If you walk in saying you can afford $250 a month then you damn well will get a $250 a month payment, probably for 72 months.


Go back to the dealer, ask to see the 4-square and RIP IT UP. Take control and tell the salesman that you want to negotiate price and you refuse to discuss any other aspect of the deal until there's a price on the table that you're comfortable with. Then move forward one step at a time. Be comfotable with every number before moving on to the next. If anything seems squirrely, WALK. If they refuse to do it your way, WALK. If they insist on a 4-square, WALK. It means they're trying to hide something. If the deal is fair to you they won't try to bury you in numbers, they'll be happy to explain each one individually. If they're afraid of dissecting the deal so you can see the real nuts and bolts, WALK!

QFT an old female friend of mine wanted a 250 dollar a month payment and she got it. She also owes more 3 years later then when she origially bought the car.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
WTF no. I refuse to do business with any car dealership that even uses the foursquare. The entire purpose of that form is dishonest deception.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
So did I really have to sign the 4-square eventually in order to buy this car, or was the saleman just praying I was an idiot and had forgotten about the monthly payment figure to which my signature would also apply?

I wouldn't, then again I'd walk away from the business. They can require it for a transaction and refuse your business if you choose not to.

I'm curious to as why they had you sign it...
 

TygGer

Senior member
Feb 20, 2003
393
0
76
Originally posted by: LS20
1. sell your car privately, no tradein
2. get preapproval from external bank
thus, at the dealership, discuss final selling price, and final selling price only. no monthly payment no payment duration. shoot for the price out the door, and handle the rest with your bank


This is the way I do it, except before going to the dealership to talk pricing... send tons of emails to see which dealer is even worth visiting. I'd start with the two dealers that offer the lowest OTD quote via email. Print that email out and bring it with you.

I've had a dealer tell me that they never quoted a certain price... when I showed them the print out, they said there must have been a miscommunication on the type of car/options,etc I wanted. lol

 

RaiderJ

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2001
7,582
1
76
I had a similar thing happen at one dealership when I was looking. They kept on wanting me to sign a piece of paper that basically said they could check my credit. I told the salesman if he asked me again, I was leaving. At that point he went and got his manager, who explained that I had to sign it, blah blah blah. I stood up and started to walk out, and they quickly changed their tune. I told them to forget it, as if they were going to lie to me, they obviously didn't really want my money!
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
126
Originally posted by: RaiderJ
I had a similar thing happen at one dealership when I was looking. They kept on wanting me to sign a piece of paper that basically said they could check my credit. I told the salesman if he asked me again, I was leaving. At that point he went and got his manager, who explained that I had to sign it, blah blah blah. I stood up and started to walk out, and they quickly changed their tune. I told them to forget it, as if they were going to lie to me, they obviously didn't really want my money!

Which is fine, if you want to do business your way, and you were in my store, I would do my best to accomodate you, but it's hard to quote an actual interest rate, if we don't know if you qualify for 6% interest, or 18%. And yes there are customers, who can only get financed at 24.99%, because there are only a couple of sub-prime lenders who handle that kind of credit. :shocked:

 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Get preapproved from credit union, dude. I got 7 year loan at 4.5% in late 2005.

7 years???!!! Holy crap! Did you just walk in and bend over? Or do you pay extra every month?
 

Nutdotnet

Diamond Member
Dec 5, 2000
7,721
3
81
Originally posted by: Vic
WTF no. I refuse to do business with any car dealership that even uses the foursquare. The entire purpose of that form is dishonest deception.

Same here.

Then again, I go in to the dealership with all the information I need PRIOR to the sale.

I already know what current offers, fair pricing, my credit score, etc...

 

Pepsi90919

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,162
1
81
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: compuwiz1

There is a reason for this. Most sales managers are busy, working several deals at a time, overseeing several salesperson's transactions at a time. They do not have time to waste on non committments.

wow, you have it bassackwards. The sales manager is usually sitting there with his thumb up his ass running credit reports. They want the autograph because that's what they use as authorization to do the credit checks. They have time to waste, they have all the time in the world. The whole trip to the managers office is to waste time, not theirs, but YOURS. The longer they keep the customer in the dealer the lower the resistance and the more likely they are to buy just to get it over with. If you let them string you along for 10 hours they'd do it and be grateful for the chance.

That's why you have to get up and walk whenever things take a turn against you. While you're in the chair they own your ass. When you get up they have to scramble to get you back.

look at you, mr. dateline nbc.
 

compnovice

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2005
3,192
0
0
added to favorites.... I will be buying a car in next 1-2 months.... ATOT looks like a good place for advice ,as of now ;)
 

Eos

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2000
3,463
17
81
Originally posted by: Specop 007
It may not mean much but I feel the need to put this out there...

Click

That presentation is like the advice people give to not buy a house until you have 20% down. If some people waited to get that 20%, they would never get there or it would take 15 years. 15 years of effing landlords and throwing rent away.

Dave has great advice, but it's not for everyone. Not everyone can buy a $6000 car and not have to maintain the hell out of it because IT'S A $6000 CAR. So that $475 per month is now $350 a month because you have to budget money to keep the old one running.

At 6'6", I can't just go out and buy a VW Golf for $6000. I'd love a Civic EX. Don't fit. Never will. I need a large vehicle that isn't cheap to buy, nor operate. It sucks, but it's my curse. My 10 year Toyota has been great and continues to get excellent mileage. But the maintenance expenses are starting to pile up. All new brakes and tires last year. My steering pump is making noise. A CV boot is split. Including cost of the car, fuel for 7 years and repairs, I'm into it for $27k. Cost per mile is $.39. Total repair costs have been $2170. Service, tires, brakes, trans flushes. Oil changes are free.

Anyway, Ramsey's method is great. I'd love to do it.