YACT: car buying: do you really "have" to sign your 4-square?

[thomsbrain]

*update*
so last night i called my credit union and got approved for their lowest rate. i went back to the dealer, snagged a different salesman, and handed him a paper with the car (with VIN) I wanted, the price I would pay, that I wouldn't be financing with them, and my signature. this sped things up considerably. the sales manager still counter-offered, but i accepted his counteroffer since i knew he'd likely never seen the salesman's "final" offer from the day before, and it was still $1500 under blue book. they still wanted me to sign the fvcking 4-square, but with their permission, i crossed everything out except for the price before signing. long story short, i drove the car home. thanks for your advice, guys. compuwiz1, i appreciated the dealer perspective.

car was a 2003 Accord EX V6, BTW. it's not the best looking car or the most fun, but it should be a nice commuter and will leave me cash to start looking for a used S2000 in a few years as a weekend car.



I had my first car-buying negotiating experience today. I was able to negotiate the internet salesman down to a price that I found acceptable, but he kept insisting that I sign the 4-square negotiating sheet as "proof" of my "offer." I told him I was serious about buying the car and would sign a bill of sale at the agreed upon price, but I wasn't signing a pre-sale agreement. He eventually gathered up the papers and told me he couldn't sell me the car unless I signed the 4-square, period.

Now, I wasn't particulary opposed to signing on an agreed upon price, but I wasn't going to sign his 4-square with its randomly generated monthly payment price in that bottom corner. I wanted to agree on a price, and then have the montly payment generated by the specific interest rate I would eventually be offered by the finance department.

So did I really have to sign the 4-square eventually in order to buy this car, or was the saleman just praying I was an idiot and had forgotten about the monthly payment figure to which my signature would also apply?

flame away!

 

[SuperNaruto]

What dealer was this..

anyway buy your car from where else, drive it to his dealer and show him that he lost a sale because he's a jack ass

 

[Golgatha]

If there are any blanks on the paperwork, then do not sign a damn thing.

 

[SmoochyTX]

Why weren't you able to get pre-approved for a certain amount through your bank or credit union?

 

[MrChad]

I don't know what the hell a 4-square is, but I would not sign anything at a car dealership unless its time to finalize the sale.

 

[Blueoak]

Sounds like a moron to me. Go find out who his arch-enemy is at work and give that person the sale instead.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: SmoochyTX
Why weren't you able to get pre-approved for a certain amount through your bank or credit union?

QFT. You'll have the most negotiating leverage if you're pre-approved through your bank and just pay the dealership cash on-site. Very rarely would I let a dealership finance me. What do I know though, I paid cash for my last vehicle purchase.

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: SmoochyTX
Why weren't you able to get pre-approved for a certain amount through your bank or credit union?

just haven't gotten around to it yet (i will tomorrow!). the salesman said they had a financing option where you could pay the "loan" in full within 5 days using your bank and their loan would never take effect. obviously i was skeptical of that, and so i wasn't about to mess around with some potentially horrific loan.

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: SmoochyTX
Why weren't you able to get pre-approved for a certain amount through your bank or credit union?

QFT. You'll have the most negotiating leverage if you're pre-approved through your bank and just pay the dealership cash on-site. Very rarely would I let a dealership finance me. What do I know though, I paid cash for my last vehicle purchase.

those sound like wise words.

 

[SmoochyTX]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain

Originally posted by: SmoochyTX
Why weren't you able to get pre-approved for a certain amount through your bank or credit union?

just haven't gotten around to it yet (i will tomorrow!). the salesman said they had a financing option where you could pay the "loan" in full within 5 days using your bank and their loan would never take effect. obviously i was skeptical of that, and so i wasn't about to mess around with some potentially horrific loan.

Get approved through your bank or credit union and then go shopping. Then you don't have to worry about that crap from the dealership.

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: MrChad
I don't know what the hell a 4-square is, but I would not sign anything at a car dealership unless its time to finalize the sale.

it's a chart with your trade-in, your sale price, your monthly payment (no interest rate listed), and your down payment.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

1) Never sign ANYTHING. They'll use that to run your credit without your permission.

2) Never even try to do business with a dealer that uses a 4-square. That's a classic trick for hitting suckers with too many numbers for them to keep straight. If they're using a 4-square it's to try to hide something from you. Negotiate PRICE AND PRICE ALONE. NOTHING ELSE!

3) Only when you have a price should you move on to tradein. Make sure both the price and trade numbers are acceptable. If either isn't to your satisfaction, WALK.

4) NEVER EVER SHOP FOR PAYMENT!!! That's how they screw idiots. If you walk in saying you can afford $250 a month then you damn well will get a $250 a month payment, probably for 72 months.


Go back to the dealer, ask to see the 4-square and RIP IT UP. Take control and tell the salesman that you want to negotiate price and you refuse to discuss any other aspect of the deal until there's a price on the table that you're comfortable with. Then move forward one step at a time. Be comfotable with every number before moving on to the next. If anything seems squirrely, WALK. If they refuse to do it your way, WALK. If they insist on a 4-square, WALK. It means they're trying to hide something. If the deal is fair to you they won't try to bury you in numbers, they'll be happy to explain each one individually. If they're afraid of dissecting the deal so you can see the real nuts and bolts, WALK!

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
1) Never sign ANYTHING. They'll use that to run your credit without your permission.

2) Never even try to do business with a dealer that uses a 4-square. That's a classic trick for hitting suckers with too many numbers for them to keep straight. If they're using a 4-square it's to try to hide something from you. Negotiate PRICE AND PRICE ALONE. NOTHING ELSE!

3) Only when you have a price should you move on to tradein. Make sure both the price and trade numbers are acceptable. If either isn't to your satisfaction, WALK.

4) NEVER EVER SHOP FOR PAYMENT!!! That's how they screw idiots. If you walk in saying you can afford $250 a month then you damn well will get a $250 a month payment, probably for 72 months.


Go back to the dealer, ask to see the 4-square and RIP IT UP. Take control and tell the salesman that you want to negotiate price and you refuse to discuss any other aspect of the deal until there's a price on the table that you're comfortable with.

So, how much do you want to spend a month?

 

[Zenmervolt]

You did the right thing.

ZV

 

[Golgatha]

Here's what I would do.

1) Figure out what you want to buy and get a rough idea what the going price for the vehicle is.

2) Fax out a letter to any dealership in your area describing what you want and ask for a detailed quote for what you want. Make them earn your business.

3) Take the best three quotes with you when you go shopping with either money in-hand or a letter from your bank stating pre-approval for the vehicle loan.

 

[everman]

They're looking for an idiot and didn't find one.
You sign a contract, not the "4-square" shell games they like to play.

 

[d3n]

I agree with Zenmervolt and the others in thinking you did the right thing.

My hard earned thoughts on the car buying bit;

The 4 square is just a tool that dealers use to move numbers around on the deal. Its something that is totally unnecessary and just serves to screw the consumer. Its not binding. The salesman likely needed you to sign it so he could take it to his manager and show that he worked his magic on you as much as possible. They float a margin between the monthly payment which means nothing and the trade in. Its not binding but the whole process is a loosing situation.

The way I usually go through things is to go to cars direct or Edmund's. Look up the invoice price with the exact option package as a car sitting on the lot somewhere.

I will find some pre approved financing from my mortgage co or a local credit union

I then go look for the car I want online directly on the dealers websites. Sometimes I will call around. It needs to be one sitting on the lot though. (dealers can't really order most of the time, they just trade with inventory other local dealers happen to have. If they have to bring it in, my bargaining power just went out the window.)

I stick with my researched invoice price and package prices. There is also a delivery fee and a fair percentage over invoice price to figure in. Edmund's and cars direct call all of that bundled together the target price. When I have had the chance to look at dealer computerized inventory listings the prices are usually dead on for what I have seen online and should be paying. Dealers will guilt you or call this inaccurate. Sometimes the target price is close to MSRP because it's a hot car. I believe the websites suggested before I would take the word a sales guy, nothing personal, just money.

If I had the option I would do the whole thing online with a car buying service on one of the big websites or with AAA. I usually find that they work with the target prices and sometimes its dropped off in your driveway.

Trade in talk should be the last thing on the plate in my view, but its usually one of the first questions out of the sales guys mouth. They are trying to find the margins they have to work with.

They way they just outright called it '4 squares' made me laugh.

 

[compuwiz1]

A four square is just a worksheet, where the salesman proposes certain numbers, until he can work out what the customer is willing to pay, what they want for their trade, what the downpayment is going to be, and how much the customer is willing to pay per month.

It is not a contract, however signing it, is only an offer, so when the salesman takes it to the sales manager, the manager knows he has a committment to do business, and is not just going thru the motions to waste time.

There is a reason for this. Most sales managers are busy, working several deals at a time, overseeing several salesperson's transactions at a time. They do not have time to waste on non committments.

The binding documentation is not signed until you get to the business office, and execute a contract, DMV, etc.

 

[helpme]

Here's what I did when I went shopping for cars:

1) Test drove all the cars I wanted to test, never talked price.

2) Got approved through Capital One auto finance online (response in 5 minutes)

3) Emailed all dealers in my area for out the door prices

4) Used the lowest quote to see if any other dealer would beat it (email)
4a) repeat 4 until nobody will go any lower

5) Went to dealer with lowest OTD price, test drove the car, signed paperwork, checks and went home with my new car.

Never had to negoitate with a sales person in person. Once I arrived at the dealer it only took about 10 minutes to get the paperwork finalized after the inspection and test drive.

Visit http://www.carbuyingtips.com for great info about how to get a great deal on a car.

 

[KK]

I just remember what the monthly payments would be for the price of the vehicle for the rate I want and let them play their number games.

 

[Mermaidman]

I've heard about the 4-square, but I've never had to sign one in any of the six vehicles I've bought from dealers. I remember being shown it once only.

Regarding dealer vs bank financing--Sometimes you can do better financing through the automaker's financing arm because of incentives and also because the dealer makes a commission (so dealer may be willing to negotiate more on price). Pay off the automaker's financing after a few months and you get your cake and eat it too! (I did that with a Mazda purchase--got Mazda financing to get an extra $1000 rebate, then paid off the loan after 3 months.)

Here is another tip: Just because a fee is pre-printed on a bill of sale doesn't mean it is non-negotiable. This is especially true for "doc fees." The state gov't usually sets a maximum allowable documentation fee so the car salesman will say, misleadingly, that it's mandated by the gov't. Bullshiit! Other bogus fees include preparation fees, upholstery protection, "paint protection," VIN etching.

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: KK
I just remember what the monthly payments would be for the price of the vehicle for the rate I want and let them play their number games.

It's not games in all stores.

It's more of a fact finding sheet. If you find out you've got a payment that's $700 per month, and you only wanted to pay $350, then that needs to be found out, so you can either put what's required down, to hit that payment, or so you can get off that car, and on one that fits the budget. Sales people are not finance people, and do not have the ability to calculate payments. All they can quote is round abouts, based on a so many dollars per thousand, payback.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

There is a reason for this. Most sales managers are busy, working several deals at a time, overseeing several salesperson's transactions at a time. They do not have time to waste on non committments.

wow, you have it bassackwards. The sales manager is usually sitting there with his thumb up his ass running credit reports. They want the autograph because that's what they use as authorization to do the credit checks. They have time to waste, they have all the time in the world. The whole trip to the managers office is to waste time, not theirs, but YOURS. The longer they keep the customer in the dealer the lower the resistance and the more likely they are to buy just to get it over with. If you let them string you along for 10 hours they'd do it and be grateful for the chance.

That's why you have to get up and walk whenever things take a turn against you. While you're in the chair they own your ass. When you get up they have to scramble to get you back.

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

There is a reason for this. Most sales managers are busy, working several deals at a time, overseeing several salesperson's transactions at a time. They do not have time to waste on non committments.

wow, you have it bassackwards. The sales manager is usually sitting there with his thumb up his ass running credit reports. They want the autograph because that's what they use as authorization to do the credit checks. They have time to waste, they have all the time in the world. The whole trip to the managers office is to waste time, not theirs, but YOURS. The longer they keep the customer in the dealer the lower the resistance and the more likely they are to buy just to get it over with. If you let them string you along for 10 hours they'd do it and be grateful for the chance.

That's why you have to get up and walk whenever things take a turn against you. While you're in the chair they own your ass. When you get up they have to scramble to get you back.

Oh really? I'm a manager at a car store, you're telling me, I have it bassackwards. I assure you I understand how it works.

They can't run a credit report off a 4 square. If you don't want your credit run, tell them you will sign an application, once your numbers are met.

Do you have to sign it? No, but what difference does it make? As stated earlier, it just shows good faith, and there is no obligation, until you sign a contract and take delivery.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

There is a reason for this. Most sales managers are busy, working several deals at a time, overseeing several salesperson's transactions at a time. They do not have time to waste on non committments.

wow, you have it bassackwards. The sales manager is usually sitting there with his thumb up his ass running credit reports. They want the autograph because that's what they use as authorization to do the credit checks. They have time to waste, they have all the time in the world. The whole trip to the managers office is to waste time, not theirs, but YOURS. The longer they keep the customer in the dealer the lower the resistance and the more likely they are to buy just to get it over with. If you let them string you along for 10 hours they'd do it and be grateful for the chance.

That's why you have to get up and walk whenever things take a turn against you. While you're in the chair they own your ass. When you get up they have to scramble to get you back.

Oh really? I'm a manager at a car store, you're telling me, I have it bassackwards. I assure you I understand how it works.

They can't run a credit report off a 4 square. If you don't want your credit run, tell them you will sign an application, once your numbers are met.

And I've sold cars and taken a few 4-squares back to the sales manager. All we'd do is run their credit, laugh at them and let them sweat. The sales manager does jack. The whole point of running back there is to make the customer sit there and sweat it out thinking "will he accept it, will he accept it." If they're making the biggest profit in dealership history off you they'll still make you wait just because it makes it easier to close later on.