Xeon vs desktop cpu for server

Red Squirrel

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I suppose the answer is simple, and Xeon is better, but what I want to know is, why? I was comparing different processors for use in a potential future server build, and the xeon clock speeds seem rather low compared to lot of desktop cpus such as the i7 or even some of the latest AMD chips. My current home server is a core2quad with 2.66Ghz clock speed per core, and a lot of the newer Xeons have that clock speed as well. Now I know clock speed is not everything, but what are other things to look at?

I run an application that is more or less single threaded so raw speed per core is what really matters to me. Am I better off going with something with a high clock speed in a case like that, or is a chip such as a Xeon much better than a desktop one even with a lower clock speed?

From my understanding desktop CPUs wont support ECC ram as well, but that's just an asside, not too too concerned about that for my app.
 

blckgrffn

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If you don't want ECC then there is little to no functional difference. Sometimes Xeons have all the little cool tech turned on and you have to be more discerning when it comes to the desktop SKUs. IE, the 2500 has VT-d where as the 2500k does not, but the 2500k has the better onboard graphics. Etc.
 

Chiropteran

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From my understanding desktop CPUs wont support ECC ram as well, but that's just an asside, not too too concerned about that for my app.

That is the main difference. Also, there are only multi-processor Xeon boards, as far as intel CPUs.
 

Rifter

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If you dont care about ECC(which is odd if you dont for a server) then a regular i7 is not a bad idea. As mentioned above pay attention if you need VT-d as not all desktop SKU's have this enabled.
 

theevilsharpie

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Aside from the ability to use ECC, Xeons will have multiple QPI links to communicate to other processors, and the cache tends to be a bit larger than on their desktop counterparts.
 

nenforcer

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The older Conroe and Wolfdale / Yorkfield XEON's (LGA775) were exactly identical to their rebranded desktop counterparts (Core 2 DUO / Core 2 Quad).

With these newer XEON's and the differences in the same desktop versions (2600K vs. 2600) you have to make sure you do your homework.
 

dac7nco

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That is the main difference. Also, there are only multi-processor Xeon boards, as far as intel CPUs.

Untrue. There are single-socket 1366 boards, and 1156 and 1155 were/are single-socket only. AMD desktop CPUs support non-registered ECC memory; AMD has a history of supporting the kitchen sink regarding server capabilities on all of their platforms: the reason they do this is to get as many customers as they can, not because they're generous.

Daimon
 

aigomorla

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I suppose the answer is simple, and Xeon is better, but what I want to know is, why? I was comparing different processors for use in a potential future server build, and the xeon clock speeds seem rather low compared to lot of desktop cpus such as the i7 or even some of the latest AMD chips. My current home server is a core2quad with 2.66Ghz clock speed per core, and a lot of the newer Xeons have that clock speed as well. Now I know clock speed is not everything, but what are other things to look at?

I run an application that is more or less single threaded so raw speed per core is what really matters to me. Am I better off going with something with a high clock speed in a case like that, or is a chip such as a Xeon much better than a desktop one even with a lower clock speed?

From my understanding desktop CPUs wont support ECC ram as well, but that's just an asside, not too too concerned about that for my app.

OK...

C2D vs Xeon... -> no difference.. unless were tlaking socket 775 vs 771.
i7 vs Xeon -> Big difference... 1366 got westmere's on xeon's while they didnt on 900 series.. Also Xeon's come in LV flavors while 900 series dont, and they come in hexcores, which only 970, 980 990 are.

i7 vs Xeon -> Xeons have a better IMC for more strict conditions.. havent been able to fully prove if its directly related to better overclocking tho... overclocking is still YMMV.

i7 vs Xeons -> ECC is totally dependant on the board... more so then the cpu for lga1366.

Sandy vs Sandy-E <--- im not allowed to speak yet.. so dont ask.
 

Chiropteran

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Untrue. There are single-socket 1366 boards, and 1156 and 1155 were/are single-socket only. AMD desktop CPUs support non-registered ECC memory; AMD has a history of supporting the kitchen sink regarding server capabilities on all of their platforms: the reason they do this is to get as many customers as they can, not because they're generous.

Daimon

You misunderstood, although I see how my post could be ambiguous. Among Intel CPUs, only Xeons support multi-CPUs. I didn't mean to imply you can't run a single Xeon CPU.

And yeah, I use ECC RAM with my 1090T.


i7 vs Xeons -> ECC is totally dependant on the board... more so then the cpu for lga1366.

Are you trying to say that you can use ECC ram and the error correction will actually function on an i7 if your board supports it? Everything I have seen from official sources seems to indicate otherwise. You might be able to use the RAM, but the ECC part won't function without a Xeon.
 
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aigomorla

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You misunderstood, although I see how my post could be ambiguous. Among Intel CPUs, only Xeons support multi-CPUs. I didn't mean to imply you can't run a single Xeon CPU.

And yeah, I use ECC RAM with my 1090T.

+1

yes u can use 1366 xeons in single socket boards as well...

Old&


however u might need a beta bios for the board to support 2xqpi cpu's, which u can typically get from the manufacturer if u email them.
 

Red Squirrel

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Ah, I did not know non server chips did not support dual socket. So guess if I'm looking at dual socket, then Xeon it is! But single, then I may look at the i7 or equivalent. Still not sure exactly what I want yet, but at least this gives me more ideas of the pro/cons.
 

dac7nco

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Chiropteran,

no, using ECC memory isn't up to the MB, it's the IMC on the CPU. You may not use ECC memory with a CPU branded i7. Intel makes you pay for features, and these days with a non-existent AMD, it rapes you in the shower. The 1366 i7 chips are Xeons, but with one of two QPI links cut (to make them single socket only) and ECC disabled. This is where it gets hilarious: The E3 1155 Xeons don't support Registered ECC at all, and they only have 4-slot boards. Finding 8GB non-registered ECC RAM sticks is nearly impossible, and desktop 8GB sticks will cost you your marriage. Important things like quicksync are broken on the E3 Xeons (or the C206 chipset, which is basically H67) , despite having the 12EU "nice" GPU on the models ending in 5.

Aigomorla's post was somewhat correct. Tyan and Supermicro are crazy about what memory they will accept. You'll commonly see supported memory as 96GB (RDIMM) / 24GB (UDIMM). The UDIMM is maximum supported desktop memory. Other manufacturers just plain don't care: The EVGA SR-2 can take as much memory as you can buy, but officially supports 48GB only. I have an Intel Smackover-2 with 48GB ECC under a Xeon, despite the board having a "limit" of 24GB.

Red Squirrel,

You don't need a dual-socket anything... no offense intended. It's kind of like RAID: people like the sound of it, it's just as costly, but without mind-bending terror. A 16GB 1155 desktop machine will bitch-slap most servers, and will run a few VMs as well. Modern 1.5v DDR3 is reliable, and modern desktop motherboards are built like lightning rods. The cheapest way to have a dual-socket server is having two shitty servers. A Core2Quad is some impressive grunt for a server... how many time per month does it reboot? If the answer is less than 1, you're asking the wrong questions.

Daimon

Edit: Stupid emoticons. I meant RAID followed by a colon, not RAI followed by a horrified face.
 
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aigomorla

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Red Squirrel,

You don't need a dual-socket anything... no offense intended. [/COLOR]

:O

u mean 2 isnt better then 1?

IMG_1614.jpg




Seriously tho... i retired that gainestown in lue of gulftowns... because as funny as it sounds, the gulftowns ran with less electricity due to active core shut down.
 

aigomorla

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lol RS, just note... these i7 cpu's are massive Horse power in multi threaded applications.

Are you going to require something this powerful?

If you Boinc.. A single gainestown... 8/16t would pull roughly 25-30k points per day.
The Gulftown... man... now thats another monster itself for processing...

But do you honestly require all that hp RS?

If your after single thread performance... and your not picky on ECC, 2600K + OC is probably win in my eyes for you.
 
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Red Squirrel

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The server is for a game server application (mostly, I use it for other stuff too), and the code is kinda old and only single core, so yes I actually need all the horse power I can per core. The way it was coded is everything happens in the main thread. If a process takes more than say, 200ms, lag is noticed by the players. On the core2quad dev/test environments everything is fine but on a core2duo, I have issues. (keep in mind both servers have other stuff running on them).

So really, the i7 sounds pretty good then. I'd most likely go supermicro for the case/mobo.

Is multi socket relevant at all these days? Like I can get a single core i7 which is technically 8 cores, or I can get a dual socket xeon, which will have the same amount of cores. Is the i7 still better?

I'd probably go with something like this:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...82E16816101234
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...5070&amp;Tpk=2600k

And whatever ram is half decent price and a name brand. My current core2quad server at home is a decent beast so I bet this would really do well.

For my purpose I don't need much ram, so a max of 24GB is more than enough. The server would do web hosting and other functions, but that's kinda irrelevant given this much power.
 

aigomorla

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no... for i7's on a 2 socket board, you can not install a 1 socket cpu even tho they fit.

The cpu must be 2xqpi for it to work in a 2xqpi board even if the cpu is in single config.

A 1xqpi board can take both 2xqpi cpu's and 1xqpi cpu's... its backwards compatable,

but u need 2xqpi cpu's for it to work in a 2xqpi board.

This is why people couldnt take a 920 and drop 2 of them on a SR-2.

Meaning dual socket boards must be xeon cpu's.


RS, get a cheap 920, or get a cheap 870 even.... 4c/8t.
Dont get a Xeon or the dual sockets unless u want to play with a westmere on xeon.
u'll be set on any game server for that, and more.

A Fullblown 8c/16t gainestown has litterally enough power to handle a medium sized company on its own.
 
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dac7nco

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The server is for a game server application (mostly, I use it for other stuff too), and the code is kinda old and only single core, so yes I actually need all the horse power I can per core. The way it was coded is everything happens in the main thread. If a process takes more than say, 200ms, lag is noticed by the players. On the core2quad dev/test environments everything is fine but on a core2duo, I have issues. (keep in mind both servers have other stuff running on them).

So really, the i7 sounds pretty good then. I'd most likely go supermicro for the case/mobo.

Is multi socket relevant at all these days? Like I can get a single core i7 which is technically 8 cores, or I can get a dual socket xeon, which will have the same amount of cores. Is the i7 still better?

I'd probably go with something like this:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...82E16816101234
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...5070&amp;Tpk=2600k

And whatever ram is half decent price and a name brand. My current core2quad server at home is a decent beast so I bet this would really do well.

For my purpose I don't need much ram, so a max of 24GB is more than enough. The server would do web hosting and other functions, but that's kinda irrelevant given this much power.

What you want is a Sandy Bridge Xeon (1155). In single-thread performance, it makes time dilations. Don't bother with the 1220/1225 - the 1230/1235s include hyper-threading for a few bucks more. You may NOT use registered ECC, but non-registered ECC will do fine. Do not buy the ASUS C206 shit... you will regret it. You'll max out at 16GB for not much cash at all.

Daimon

As a bonus, I'll give you this: My E3-1275 (SB, 1155, 3.4GHz) is roughly twice as fast as my old HTPC (Q8300, 2.5GHz), which traded blows with a Phenom-II x4 @ 2.8.
 

aigomorla

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+1 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ASUS Server boards....

Supermicro FTW or straight up Intel 5520.

that supermicro looks like a single socket board as well, and not dual socket RS.
Memory Supported

Memory Slots
6 x 240Pin

Max Memory Supported
24GB

Memory Type Supported
DDR3 1333/1066/800

Channel Supported
Triple Channel

ECC Supported
Yes

If it was 2xqpi, the ram specs would be doubled.

So it would take any i7 cpu.. if your going that route, i would suggest u get a westmere.
E5600 series..
 
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Red Squirrel

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Yeah I don't NEED 2 sockets but I was hoping for it, but now that I think about it, I'll skip that and stick with single socket. And yeah from now on for servers I'm probably going to go Supermicro. That board IS Supermicro right? Just wondering why Asus was brought up, or if it was just a side note.

The thing I like about Supermicro is they are affordable and from what I read, they have a good track record. I was looking at Dell at one point but the minute you start adding more than 4GB of ram or 1TB of disk space they want your first born, and since I don't have kids, they'll take my left nut instead.

Also, is the Bulldozer even worth looking at? Ok, you can stop laughing now. :p Probably going to stick with i7 as suggested or the Xeon Sandy Bridge 1155. I'm not building this any time soon anyway, so this is more to just give me a general idea. So who knows what comes out from now to then. Maybe a core i9 or something. :p
 
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dac7nco

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Also, is the Bulldozer even worth looking at?

LOL! Hell no, unless you're crazy parallel, and not even then. I was considering AM3+ as the basis of cheap compute nodes as recently as ten days ago... never again will I be so hopeful and so stupid.

ASUS was brought up because I had a C206 workstation board from them, with an ES (Intel Property) E3-1275. The skinny on that was: 1: Quicksync NEVER worked, despite the board having discrete DVI-out. 2: Memory compatibility was (and is) wonky. 3: ASUS tech support (for server gear!) consists of "I da speaky goody".

ASUS does similar things ala Supermicro: They have a split "PIKE" slot, which is basically a cut and extended x16, which only works with their own, proprietary LSI RAID "controllers". The nice thing is that PIKE is the cheapest possible way to get 1068/2008... the bad thing is that the ASUS type has a full-metal-jacket that has no onboard ports, the motherboard has no SGPIO (connections for failure in backplanes), and uses SATA connectors.

ASUS also provides, free of care, a PCIe x1 slot which is only rated for use by ASUS MIO audio card. This is, admittedly, the cheapest audio card on earth with optical-out, but hey... I can't use an express-card hotswap in the only x1 slot?

Supermicro has their own funny form factors, but: They support them! You can buy a strange Supermicro board, find a case, heatsinks, memory and drivers for it. Have an extra slot and a bay in front?: Here's your USB3. Wanna run fake SLI? Here's your SLI bridge, on the house.

Supermicro is the shizzle.

Daimon
 

aigomorla

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Also, is the Bulldozer even worth looking at? Ok, you can stop laughing now.

...

BD isnt... but the X6 is a good prospect... its cheap, its fast enough for what you need them to do, its 6 real cores... and u can probably end up building 3 X6 boxes for the price of 1 i7 machine.
 

Red Squirrel

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Good to know, I was actually looking at the X6 as a possibility, as it does seem quite cheap compared to Intel. In a perfect scenario I actually do want two servers, one for failover, so this could work too.