xenon, halogen & other lighting questions

[rh71]

There are terms thrown around and I'd like to know the exact differences.

Xenon Halogen
Halogen
HID

Are the first two the same thing? How does Xenon play into it? I've always thought Xenon meant HID.

Anyway, I am hearing that "pure white" 8500k halogen is the same white as 6500k HID. I'm looking for pure white halogen (as bright as possible) with no blue tint and need to know if 8500k is correct (for halogen). I am trying to avoid HIDs since these are cornering lights and turn off and on all the time.

Wasn't there a site that showed comparisons? Can't find it.

 

[Strk]

Xenon is the type of gas an HID bulb is filled with. I think halogen is the type of metal in the regular bulbs (well, not regular light bulbs, but for "halogens"). If your car doesn't use HIDs, don't get them -- aftermarket kits are illegal. If the assembly isn't designed for them, the light is thrown everywhere and blinds people.

And the temperature for pure white is usually 4300k. I've seen some claims that it's 5000k, but most go with the lower number. The higher the number, the more color will show up and the less light it will actually provide.

 

[joutlaw]

You need to use reflectors and projectors designed for HID bulbs. They are longer than halogen so the focal points are different.

If you want HIDs and your car doesn't have them, the best option is to retrofit a pair of projectors from a TSX or similar.

google hidplanet and look at their forums.

 

[CRXican]

Good info so far. If you look at his sig you'll see he has a fancy pants BMW. I'm guessing it has HIDs for the main headlights.

I'm also guessing the bulbs he's looking to replace are just regular halogen bulbs that are H2 or 9005/6 (not sure what the Germans use). As mentioned, 4300k is usually white light and most factory HIDs are 4300K.

So I guess you should look for some halogens listed around 4300K if they even measure them like that. I think they usually just list wattge though. Any Xenon designation on simple halogen bulbs is usually a ricer gimmick and they just have some blue coating.

 

[jagec]

Halogen is the term for any element on the next-to far right of the periodic table. A problem with filament lighting is that essentially you have a chemical vapor deposition cycle--at higher temperatures and lower pressures, more and more metal from the filament will essentially vaporize and re-deposit on the cooler inside of the glass, which will darken the glass and cause the filament to burn out eventually. By filling the bulb with an inert gas and small amounts of a halogen, any tungsten from the filament that boils off will react with the halogen instead of the glass, which gives it a chance to be recirculated and re-deposit on the filament, thus increasing filament life, decreasing glass darkening, and increasing the temperature at which the filament can be operated (and therefore increasing the efficiency of the bulb and producing more uniform light across the visible spectrum).

Xenon, however, is a noble gas, from the far-right of the periodic table, one of a family which also includes neon, argon, and krypton. A "xenon bulb" is simply a bulb which uses xenon as the inert gas.

HID is high-intensity discharge--in other words, a bulb that uses an arc of electricity, instead of a heated filament, to produce light. Generally they use xenon as the inert gas, and they will NOT use halogens as part of a filament replenishment system, as there is no filament. HID tends to produce very even light across the visible spectrum, but lots of UV (don't worry, it doesn't escape the bulb).

As far as color "temperature" goes, I don't know much about it, but I tend to be very skeptical as the number doesn't tell you much about the actual emission profile of a bulb, and it has become a marketing term and therefore completely useless.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Jagec gives an excellent description of the origin and use of "halogen" in a technical aspect. In practice, it's largely used to differentiate the older "tungsten" bulbs from the newer "halogen" bulbs, which function as jagec described.

"Xenon" originally referred to the fact that HID bulbs used a gaseous mixture that used a large Xenon gas component.

However, the advances in using Xenon gas with HID bulbs led to companies using a small amount of xenon gas in filament bulbs to improve light output. These updated bulbs are sometimes marketed as "Xenon" even though they still function in the same manner as "halogen" bulbs. In fact, whether marketed as "xenon" or not, most (all?) quality "halogen" bulbs will have some amount of xenon gas used.

ZV

 

[LOUISSSSS]

the best halogen bulbs u can get are some pure white PIAA bulbs found at tirerack or some sylvania silverstar bulbs foud at your local autozone or walmart.

with HIDS you're looking at some big bucks and a lot of labor. let us know exactly what you want.

it is possible to convert halogen headlight systems to projectors with HID bulbs.. the minimum cost will probably be around $400 for a decent setup.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I love love love the HID lights on my 330i. The spectrum is nicer and they are VERY bright. I also have adaptive headlights which turn with the front wheels, which helps as well.

 

[DVad3r]

I've got HID lights on my 01 Lexus and love them! The light is so nice and clear. Couldn't be happier. I think it's like 130 bucks a bulb Canadian to replace, which isn't bad compared to some other people I know getting quoted 400 + for their new car bulbs.

Now I just need to take out the headlight assembly apart and clean it out, there's a dust/particle buildup behind it.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: DVad3r
I've got HID lights on my 01 Lexus and love them! The light is so nice and clear. Couldn't be happier. I think it's like 130 bucks a bulb Canadian to replace, which isn't bad compared to some other people I know getting quoted 400 + for their new car bulbs.

Now I just need to take out the headlight assembly apart and clean it out, there's a dust/particle buildup behind it.

If you are smart you can easily pay around 80$ for a pair (depending on what type they are) if you don't buy from dealer.

I got 85122 brand new for 50$ pair

 

[DVad3r]

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: DVad3r
I've got HID lights on my 01 Lexus and love them! The light is so nice and clear. Couldn't be happier. I think it's like 130 bucks a bulb Canadian to replace, which isn't bad compared to some other people I know getting quoted 400 + for their new car bulbs.

Now I just need to take out the headlight assembly apart and clean it out, there's a dust/particle buildup behind it.

If you are smart you can easily pay around 80$ for a pair (depending on what type they are) if you don't buy from dealer.

I got 85122 brand new for 50$ pair

That's good stuff, where did you buy yours? I never buy anything at the dealer, they were charging me 144 bucks for an tranny fluid filter kit. I got around 130 bucks per headlight price quote from an independant auto parts shop in Toronto.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: DVad3r
I've got HID lights on my 01 Lexus and love them! The light is so nice and clear. Couldn't be happier. I think it's like 130 bucks a bulb Canadian to replace, which isn't bad compared to some other people I know getting quoted 400 + for their new car bulbs.

Now I just need to take out the headlight assembly apart and clean it out, there's a dust/particle buildup behind it.

If you are smart you can easily pay around 80$ for a pair (depending on what type they are) if you don't buy from dealer.

I got 85122 brand new for 50$ pair

That's good stuff, where did you buy yours? I never buy anything at the dealer, they were charging me 144 bucks for an tranny fluid filter kit. I got around 130 bucks per headlight price quote from an independant auto parts shop in Toronto.

Jesus that is insane!
I know a guy who does retrofits in GTA and he usually has plenty of 85122+ bulbs new and used.. I found him from hidplanet and kijiji

He charges about 75$ for 85122+ new or 50 for used

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Jagec gives an excellent description of the origin and use of "halogen" in a technical aspect. In practice, it's largely used to differentiate the older "tungsten" bulbs from the newer "halogen" bulbs, which function as jagec described.

"Xenon" originally referred to the fact that HID bulbs used a gaseous mixture that used a large Xenon gas component.

However, the advances in using Xenon gas with HID bulbs led to companies using a small amount of xenon gas in filament bulbs to improve light output.

I think the main reason they put xenon gas in filament bulbs is to enable them to market the bulbs as "Xenon" bulbs. It confuses customers since they associate xenon with HIDs.

 

[RichieZ]

Originally posted by: rh71
There are terms thrown around and I'd like to know the exact differences.

Xenon Halogen
Halogen
HID

Are the first two the same thing? How does Xenon play into it? I've always thought Xenon meant HID.

Anyway, I am hearing that "pure white" 8500k halogen is the same white as 6500k HID. I'm looking for pure white halogen (as bright as possible) with no blue tint and need to know if 8500k is correct (for halogen). I am trying to avoid HIDs since these are cornering lights and turn off and on all the time.

Wasn't there a site that showed comparisons? Can't find it.

what is a cornering light? Fog light?

They do make HID match bulbs for the fogs.

As far as color goes, BMW OEM is 4300K. I personally run 6000K in my Z4 for a "whiter" look, yes I know it actually produces less light.

 

[DVad3r]

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: DVad3r

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: DVad3r
I've got HID lights on my 01 Lexus and love them! The light is so nice and clear. Couldn't be happier. I think it's like 130 bucks a bulb Canadian to replace, which isn't bad compared to some other people I know getting quoted 400 + for their new car bulbs.

Now I just need to take out the headlight assembly apart and clean it out, there's a dust/particle buildup behind it.

If you are smart you can easily pay around 80$ for a pair (depending on what type they are) if you don't buy from dealer.

I got 85122 brand new for 50$ pair

That's good stuff, where did you buy yours? I never buy anything at the dealer, they were charging me 144 bucks for an tranny fluid filter kit. I got around 130 bucks per headlight price quote from an independant auto parts shop in Toronto.

Jesus that is insane!
I know a guy who does retrofits in GTA and he usually has plenty of 85122+ bulbs new and used.. I found him from hidplanet and kijiji

He charges about 75$ for 85122+ new or 50 for used

PM me his number or address if you can, Ill go out and buy a pair of bulbs from him, I know these will burn out pretty soon.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
the best halogen bulbs u can get are some pure white PIAA bulbs

PIAA is junk. Absolute junk. Blatant marketing bullshit about "providing 110watts of light from only 55watts" and other nonsensical pseudo-scientific marketing claims designed to prey upon riceboys who lack even a basic understanding of optics.

Good baseline information about "superwhite" type bulbs.

The "best" halogen bulbs in terms of light output would be Narva, or Osram (Philips in the US) un-tinted +50 bulbs. These will produce far more light than the "pure white" tinted crap from PIAA while producing less glare.

ZV

 

[LOUISSSSS]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
the best halogen bulbs u can get are some pure white PIAA bulbs

PIAA is junk. Absolute junk. Blatant marketing bullshit about "providing 110watts of light from only 55watts" and other nonsensical pseudo-scientific marketing claims designed to prey upon riceboys who lack even a basic understanding of optics.

Good baseline information about "superwhite" type bulbs.

The "best" halogen bulbs in terms of light output would be Narva, or Osram (Philips in the US) un-tinted +50 bulbs. These will produce far more light than the "pure white" tinted crap from PIAA while producing less glare.

ZV

i'm not sure philips bulbs used in OEM halogen systems are brighter than the xtreme white bulbs listed here:
http://www.piaa.com/Bulbs/Bulbs.html

i've switched from OEM bulbs to those PIAAs to my HIDs and saw a progressive increase in brightness of the ground, and objects in my light path.
that is my opinion, and you have your opinion.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
that is my opinion, and you have your opinion.

Yes, and we all know how much your opinion is worth.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
the best halogen bulbs u can get are some pure white PIAA bulbs

PIAA is junk. Absolute junk. Blatant marketing bullshit about "providing 110watts of light from only 55watts" and other nonsensical pseudo-scientific marketing claims designed to prey upon riceboys who lack even a basic understanding of optics.

Good baseline information about "superwhite" type bulbs.

The "best" halogen bulbs in terms of light output would be Narva, or Osram (Philips in the US) un-tinted +50 bulbs. These will produce far more light than the "pure white" tinted crap from PIAA while producing less glare.

ZV

i'm not sure philips bulbs used in OEM halogen systems are brighter than the xtreme white bulbs listed here:
http://www.piaa.com/Bulbs/Bulbs.html

i've switched from OEM bulbs to those PIAAs to my HIDs and saw a progressive increase in brightness of the ground, and objects in my light path.
that is my opinion, and you have your opinion.

No, you saw an increase in glare, which, while it actually reduces your ability to distinguish objects, is perceived as "brighter".

More glare, fewer lumens.

And, for actual testing results, here you go. Notice how the "super white" type of bulbs, while narrowly outperforming stock bulbs, could not even come close to the un-tinted +30 bulbs, let alone the un-tinted +50 bulbs. As I said in my post, the un-tinted +50 bulbs are the best. They're also cheaper than the junk that PIAA sells.

ZV

 

[LOUISSSSS]

no, i saw an increase in brightness of the ground and signs and markings on the sides of the road.

i'm not sure how i can see an increase in glare from the inside of my car...

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
no, i saw an increase in brightness of the ground and signs and markings on the sides of the road.

i'm not sure how i can see an increase in glare from the inside of my car...

With your eyes? I sure hope you're using those when you're driving.

An increase in glare will make some things jump out and be more noticeable (like the signs or road markings) but actually make your overall night vision worse. It's kind of like seeing a big glare off a mirror. You can see the mirror is there but it makes it harder to see anything else. With your night vision if there's something that has a glare and is overly bright compared to the rest or what's in front of you your eyes will adjust to that one bright thing, leaving you with worse night vision for the rest of the road in front of you.

This is the reason why people get polarized glasses, it reduces glare and lets you see everything a bit better.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
no, i saw an increase in brightness of the ground and signs and markings on the sides of the road.

i'm not sure how i can see an increase in glare from the inside of my car...

If you don't know how you can see increased glare from inside your car, you don't know enough about optics to speak intelligently on this topic.

ZV